pyro banking not worth anymore ?

[Deleted]

Playing with simcraft i noticed no real difference between pyro banking and fire on proc not even on single target.
Using fire on proc we can force more ib casts benefiting in multiple targets because of more freqvent dot spreads.
note: only doing pyro banking when combustion cooldown is <8.

Maybe simcraft is not working fine on the banking part or should we stop doing it ?

[Komman]

Seeing as how the pyro-camping mechanic is rather complicated in SimC, I'm interested in seeing how you "tested" this.

Pyro-camping in SimC also doesn't really reduce IB casts by a lot. If you look at the mean interval, IB is casted every ~12 seconds. Robomage also does the "After Fireball+Pyro, if only 1 of them crit, immediately use IB to go from "Pyro!" to "Pyro! + Heating Up" thing, which means that IB is used a lot more often than your average player.

[tubawizard]

After Fireball+Pyro, if only 1 of them crit, immediately use IB to go from "Pyro!" to "Pyro! + Heating Up" thing

I have seen that sequence too, using Simcraft. In theory that would be perfect, but in practicing this, the problem arises: You effectively have to wait and see if only 1 of them crits. So casting an IB if only 1 crits. But reacting to this is difficult. You loose time doing so. If I cast the IB to early I loose a PB! when 2 crits were casted! It is annyoing to watch out for that. There is no alternative? How do you handle it?

[Deleted]

Seeing as how the pyro-camping mechanic is rather complicated in SimC, I'm interested in seeing how you "tested" this.

Pyro-camping in SimC also doesn't really reduce IB casts by a lot. If you look at the mean interval, IB is casted every ~12 seconds. Robomage also does the "After Fireball+Pyro, if only 1 of them crit, immediately use IB to go from "Pyro!" to "Pyro! + Heating Up" thing, which means that IB is used a lot more often than your average player.

In the situation where u have a pyro and no fireball flying so no way to munch the next heating up proc, simulationcraft casts a inferno blast. That i am also doing after a gcd that cannot generate a heating up like living bomb refresh for example, u can inferno blast if you have a pyro proc already. That also spread living bomb so its good when you can do it

to cast pyro without banking i add second line after the following:
actions.single_target+=/pyroblast,if=buff.pyroblast.up&buff.heating_up.up&action.fireball.in_flight
actions.single_target+=/pyroblast,if=buff.pyroblast.up&cooldown.combustion.remains>8

[Komman]

It is annyoing to watch out for that. There is no alternative? How do you handle it?

The only way to handle it is to not stand too far, and react quickly.

to cast pyro without banking i add second line after the following:
actions.single_target+=/pyroblast,if=buff.pyroblast.up&buff.heating_up.up&action.fireball.in_flight
actions.single_target+=/pyroblast,if=buff.pyroblast.up&cooldown.combustion.remains>8

Hrm. Interesting.

With set bonuses:

DPS Ranking:
91613 100.0% Raid
46091 50.3% No_Camp
45522 49.7% Mage_Fire_T17M

Without set bonuses:

DPS Ranking:
81224 100.0% Raid
40703 50.1% Mage_Fire_T17M
40522 49.9% No_Camp

Not camping for pyros seems to trade a few fireballs for pyroblasts and inferno blasts. Basically, it's saying that set bonuses make us want to use procs aggressively. Sounds like the APL can use some optimizations with 2T17.

On second thought I'm not sure using "buff.up" with no other conditions is valid. I'll have to look into this.

[Deleted]

The only way to handle it is to not stand too far, and react quickly.


Hrm. Interesting.

With set bonuses:


Without set bonuses:


Not camping for pyros seems to trade a few fireballs for pyroblasts and inferno blasts. Basically, it's saying that set bonuses make us want to use procs aggressively. Sounds like the APL can use some optimizations with 2T17.

On second thought I'm not sure using "buff.up" with no other conditions is valid. I'll have to look into this.

So you have same results with or without pyro banking. The 0.2% diff can be the error rate. Notice not using pyro banking inferno blast usage freqvency is higher than one every 12seconds resulting a dps increase in multi target fights.

The buff.up is working fine, if you remove the banking when combustion is coming off cooldown, the dps difference will be visible mainly loosing on combustion because simcraft cant fish for a big combustion, it simply does a pyro chain and combust everytime combust is available.

If still using banking pyro another thing to test would be to fire pyro at 4+ or 5 incanter's flow stacks.
Also would be interesting to see the results with disabling living bomb when trinket / ring proc is up because the living bomb dot is quite weak and the explosion will take place after the proc expire, so why not try to use the proc with stronger spells ?

[Frost1129]

buff.up causes robomage to respond with no delay (i.e. inhuman). That's why we normally use .react. Wonder if the results hold for that.

[Komman]

So you have same results with or without pyro banking. The 0.2% diff can be the error rate. Notice not using pyro banking inferno blast usage freqvency is higher than one every 12seconds resulting a dps increase in multi target fights.

The buff.up is working fine, if you remove the banking when combustion is coming off cooldown, the dps difference will be visible mainly loosing on combustion because simcraft cant fish for a big combustion, it simply does a pyro chain and combust everytime combust is available.

If still using banking pyro another thing to test would be to fire pyro at 4+ or 5 incanter's flow stacks.
Also would be interesting to see the results with disabling living bomb when trinket / ring proc is up because the living bomb dot is quite weak and the explosion will take place after the proc expire, so why not try to use the proc with stronger spells ?

The 0.2% diff is smaller than the error rate because I run smaller target errors. The quoted 12 second interval was without set bonuses, while the one with set bonuses is 8 second. That hasn't really changed regardless of camping.

[Deleted]

Small dps increase using the following rules instead of previous i post:
actions.single_target+=/pyroblast,if=buff.pyroblast.up&cooldown.combustion.remains>12&action.fireball.in_flight

For sure is a dps increase to save the pyro for procs/if 5 stacks instead of banking for heating up. I just dont have the time right now to code this and test

[Komman]

After looking into this, I believe the source is from set bonuses. In particular, 2T17 is making us want to aggressively use pyroblasts without camping, because of reduced time spent at IB charge cap. However, this only applies when IB is available. Adding "action.inferno_blast.charges_fractional>0.85" guarantees this effect, and causes an even higher gain.

This APL optimization is now included in default APLs.

I'm a bit skeptical about Incanter's Flow optimizations because this doesn't really open up a big window for pyro usage. I'll look into them later.

[Deleted]

If there is no difference between pyro banking and fire at proc, we can do semi banking, firing the pyro on 4-5 stacks increasing so it will hit on 5-4 stacks. If we sim this should be a real increase.

[Deleted]

This is ~kinda~ related to this as it also involves the use of aggressively using Pyroblast with the 2pc, but it is possible to add an action to the APL to spam Scorch in place of Fireball during the proc uptime of trinkets that provide crit rating to machine gun as many Pyro's out as possible during the trinket proc? Don't know how much substance there is to it, just a random thought I had and am interested in seeing if it changes anything for the sim results. The Scorch damage itself is irrelevant, I'm more interested in seeing if fishing for crits faster to get more Pyroblasts out comes out ahead of casting Fireball during the short proc duration.

I do think this would be aimed more at the Repository as it's such a short proc period, sticking with Fireball would most likely stay more beneficial for DMF.

[Deleted]

This is ~kinda~ related to this as it also involves the use of aggressively using Pyroblast with the 2pc, but it is possible to add an action to the APL to spam Scorch in place of Fireball during the proc uptime of trinkets that provide crit rating to machine gun as many Pyro's out as possible during the trinket proc? Don't know how much substance there is to it, just a random thought I had and am interested in seeing if it changes anything for the sim results. The Scorch damage itself is irrelevant, I'm more interested in seeing if fishing for crits faster to get more Pyroblasts out comes out ahead of casting Fireball during the short proc duration.

I do think this would be aimed more at the Repository as it's such a short proc period, sticking with Fireball would most likely stay more beneficial for DMF.

Fireball crit chance is much higher than scorch so there is no point to use scorch.
So far i test in game and only banking the pyro for procs/if5 stacks is a huge dps increase (up to 8-10% in my tests) for dual targets.
Next test i will not living bomb during procs because the explosion will take effect after the proc end so i can spend that gcd trying to fish a pyro instead of dotting a low dps spell. That should be a increase for 2 targets.

[Deleted]

Fireball crit chance is much higher than scorch so there is no point to use scorch.

Not really talking about crit chance, but the sheer amount of Scorches you can get out during the proc duration compared to Fireball's.

[Komman]

Not really talking about crit chance, but the sheer amount of Scorches you can get out during the proc duration compared to Fireball's.

It's hard to imagine scorch being worth using for any occasion, considering how it does basically no damage at all. There is no case of "utilizing buffs better" that would make up for the loss of wasting 3-4 seconds doing nothing.

[Frost1129]

Not really talking about crit chance, but the sheer amount of Scorches you can get out during the proc duration compared to Fireball's.

You would need a gigantic amount of extra pyros I think. Scorch is 25% SP, Fireball is 158.6. You would almost have to guarentee that every 2xscorch would give you another pyroblast for it to be worth that massive drop in damage. And, as stated above, the # of pyroblasts you generate from more spells cast might not really outweight that fact that fireball by nature of enhanced pyrotechnics has a better chance to actually give you crits / pyros.

[Deleted]

It was just mostly a curiosity and just wanted to see how it would look when simmed is all really.

[Deleted]

Small dps increase using the following rules instead of previous i post:
actions.single_target+=/pyroblast,if=buff.pyroblast.up&cooldown.combustion.remains>12&action.fireball.in_flight

For sure is a dps increase to save the pyro for procs/if 5 stacks instead of banking for heating up. I just dont have the time right now to code this and test

I don't understand how this can yield a dps increase. Aren't you risking that if either pyro or fireball (not both) crits, then you waste a heating up?

[Deleted]

I don't understand how this can yield a dps increase. Aren't you risking that if either pyro or fireball (not both) crits, then you waste a heating up?

That is a noticeable difference only for the 2p, probably more freqvent inferno blast usage.
Try this:

# replace whole living bomb sequence with
actions.living_bomb=living_bomb,if=remains<1

# add this after the pyro banking
actions.single_target+=/pyroblast,if=cooldown.combustion.remains>12&buff.pyroblast.up&((buff.archmages_incandescen ce_int.up&buff.archmages_incandescence_int.remains<2)|(buff.howling_soul.up&buff.howling_s oul.remains<2)|(buff.incanters_flow.up&buff.incanters_flow.stack>3))


You can add multiple procs and the dps should be better, i only test for my trinket

note: i test using 2 targets because we are not going to use fire for single target

[Deleted]

You would need a gigantic amount of extra pyros I think. Scorch is 25% SP, Fireball is 158.6. You would almost have to guarentee that every 2xscorch would give you another pyroblast for it to be worth that massive drop in damage. And, as stated above, the # of pyroblasts you generate from more spells cast might not really outweight that fact that fireball by nature of enhanced pyrotechnics has a better chance to actually give you crits / pyros.

Where do you get the spell coeffs these days? I tried googling but only got my hands on WotLK coefficients that I'm pretty certain don't apply now? Would really like to know for at least pyro, fb and ffb apart from the two you listed.