Raid and Dungeon Q&A, New Cindermane Charger Recruit-A-Friend Mount

[americandavey]

Come on, you have people not doing dungeons hardly anymore (normal or Heroic) because of really no carrot on the stick. So lets think about diluting the pool of players even more with a third version of the same dungeon.

[Silverhope444]

recolor of the astral steed... no thanks

[Eliazer681]

I swear to god, these recaps are starting to sound more and more like social engineering. They are trying to suggest to us the popular opinion, instead of debating the better-established ones.

The reason Personal Loot isn't being used is that no one wants their gearing experience to "even out" over the course of a month. They want the thrill of seeing their prized item drop, the equal opportunity of rolling for it, etc... they want it now, after putting all those efforts into downing a boss. Not after downing the boss 3 or 4 times (when the math decides to not be kind).

Master Looter (when not dealing with ninjas) remains the overwhelmingly popular choice for a reason. The only time Personal Loot is used, is for when the Raid Leaders don't want to deal with the micromanagement/drama. Those groups typically take much longer to fill.

It boggles my mind that this is even an issue of contention at the dev table. They must think Personal Loot is better for sub retention. Maybe on paper it is, but everybody knows MMOs are about chasing carrots and Personal Loot kills the carrot.

I disagree. You know what's awesome? Killing a boss, right clicking him and maybe picking up my item with no strings attached, just for me. Maybe throwing a bonus roll at it if I really want it.

You know what really sucks? Seeing an item I finally want drop (in the same amount of runs as the above scenario, pretty much) and /rolling a 12, while another player in my class that died 20% into the fight or barely did damage wins the roll and walks off with something he doesn't deserve. Or a PuG raid leader deciding his guildmate gets the loot, just 'cause.

Some people don't prefer that kind of scenario. There are arguments for both sides.

[TheTaurenOrc]

The leaders choose the loot system and they have an incentive to choose Master Loot to be the master looter. If you don't like that loot style, find another group or make your own that uses personal loot.

Woooooowwwww. Really?

Just as toxic as the community then, very disappointed and evidence of how out of touch these guys are.

Prevent changing loot type during the encounter? Nope.
Use an anonymous voting system when trying to change to master loot? Nope.
Tell your customers it's their problem? Yep.

I am just throwing this out there, it was Ion right? Totally something he would say.

[ZeroWashu]

the problem with their fixed bug count is that it likely covers text errors

[AngryLakitu]

I swear to god, these recaps are starting to sound more and more like social engineering. They are trying to suggest to us the popular opinion, instead of debating the better-established ones.

The reason Personal Loot isn't being used is that no one wants their gearing experience to "even out" over the course of a month. They want the thrill of seeing their prized item drop, the equal opportunity of rolling for it, etc... they want it now, after putting all those efforts into downing a boss. Not after downing the boss 3 or 4 times (when the math decides to not be kind).

Master Looter (when not dealing with ninjas) remains the overwhelmingly popular choice for a reason. The only time Personal Loot is used, is for when the Raid Leaders don't want to deal with the micromanagement/drama. Those groups typically take much longer to fill.

It boggles my mind that this is even an issue of contention at the dev table. They must think Personal Loot is better for sub retention. Maybe on paper it is, but everybody knows MMOs are about chasing carrots and Personal Loot kills the carrot.

I don't think they have actually released the algorithms (if they have I'd love to see them), so if they say the math is identical I don't see how Master Looter provides anything other than a false sense of control; everything being equal.

I'm going to make numbers up here, but it is more the idea I am trying to impart based on the statement that the "math is identical". If you don't believe that, that's fine I'm not here to decide whether or not one favors conspiracies or improve trust issues one might -- justifiably -- have. This also ignores the skewing that abusing the Master Looter system can have.

Constants:
One drop per five loot-eligible raid members.
Loot may only be assigned to class/spec appropriate users.

Assume a group of 15 loot eligible.
And for the sake of this example we'll target healers and use spirit gear.
Assume a group of 3 loot eligible healers.

At the highest level, there are two systems that need to be built here. What is dropped? and Who is it assigned to?

What is dropped
If the math is the same, the high level, simplistic algorithm or base business rule applied is: 15 / 5 = 3 drops.

You then may have a sub algorithm that calculates what type of pieces drop based on the group composition, but regardless this principle doesn't need to be fleshed out and the algorithm for the AMOUNT of pieces that drop applies to both Personal and ML.

A spirit trinket drops.
Who is it assigned to
The difference between Personal and ML here is where I think the false sense of control comes in.

If the math is the same, the high level, simplistic algorithm or base business rule applied is: Eligible members generate values and the highest value wins.

In Personal Loot, the computer rolls the dice and in Master Looter you roll the dice.

Now, does the algorithm account for people that already have the trinket and wouldn't roll in Master Looter? Maybe not, but at the highest level and taking as truth "the math is the same", any loot-eligible members will have the exact same chances in Personal Loot or ML and your tangible benefits of each are:

PL -> No loot abuse.
ML -> Chances improve when loot-eligible members generate loot, but don't roll on it.

Edit:
I think the statement they make about how it feels is very telling. I would guess that if they find a way to mimic the rolling process or feeling of control one has in ML (maybe even an Opt-Out option like Need/Greed/Pass to help account for those not wanting a drop but contributing to it dropping) they will do away with ML in everything except Mythic or 90% Guild runs -- where gear allocation needs finer control -- because they like Personal Loot better as a system.

Yes, the one drop vs many drop dichotomy exists and is assumed to be balanced over time by the Personal Loot algorithm so you certainly have a point about chasing carrots, but I think the bigger stigma is that the math behind the systems isn't equal and I'd say that is the larger deterrence to Personal Loot adoption. It is true getting fully geared in one go is a great feeling, but a bunch of people don't expect that to happen and would be okay with gearing up over the course of a month. Especially those not necessarily looking to progress outside of their current difficulty.

I'd suggest that any groups that are not 90-95% Guild Groups or Mythic Groups should be mandated to use Personal Loot because the only reason that justifies using Master Looter in any form of PUG group is selfish in nature -- stealing drops for friends or fully gearing yourself in one go -- and that leads to loot abuse.

[ejpaints]

The only thing ML does is allow for control over who gets the loot. For a guild group that's generally how people prefer it to work. But, for pug situations that's only good if you're one of the people benefitting. I've seen plenty of people get passed over simply because the master looted gave the item to their buddy.

If I'm running with my guild it's master loot all the way. But, if I join a pug group that's a different story. I don't don't trust someone I don't know to be honest with it bc let's get real, people in this very thread have done the same kinda crap.

[Alayea]

Yeah, heard about Leonard Nimoy's passing on the radio this morning. =(

Good tribute pic.

[CheeseSandwich]

Of course, you mean 6-7 months from launch, which is pretty much normal. Unless you were just trying to stir the pot by being ignorant...who would do something like that?

No ignorance, just going on Blizz's 'a raid tier can last 6-7 months'. They just released BRF, have you killed myhic yet?

[Majesco]

"Normal / Heroic BRF are no longer too hard for smaller raid sizes"

What exactly does this mean? What did they change that I missed?

We run with a raid of 12 people and BRF seems very unforgiving. When we add a few pugs and get up to 17+ it seems the fights are cake.

I spoke to an old friend and his guild is feeling the same way.

Is this just us? Am I missing something?

[Gilian]

I wish they would stop using this stupid argument, "what's fun" is totally subjective.

Yes but you are in a group with four other people. Did you do MoP heroics during SoO? I was in groups with elemental shamans who queued as healers because they could zerg everything down so fast and had such strong offheals that there was no dedicated healer needed and they would also be tanking everything. On top of that such a group would make massive pulls, as in pull all trash mobs up to the boss and do it ala challenge mode world record style.

Yes I thought that was fun on one side because it was pretty ridiculous and you were extremely powerful just by yourself. On the other hand it ruined those dungeons completely.
I can also understand that anyone who was new and wanted to enjoy the content wouldn't find this fun at all. They would not be able to keep up and would basically not be doing anything at all really.

At the moment I am already making huge pulls with my ilvl 638 blood DK and tanks or hybrid tank/dps with raid gear, ilvl 670ish, are already soloing heroics. So next tier these dungeons will be a big joke once again if these players that overgear it with 50-70 ilvls use LFG to obtain currency for gear or upgrades.

[valkye]

veeeery interesting... but just want 10m Mythic back!

[Nelle]

LLAP guys, never forget!

[Eace]

The team's focus is on reducing the gap between the final content patch and the next expansion. Siege of Orgrimmar was way way too long. This expansion will have whatever number of raid tiers is necessary to avoid that situation. Six or seven months is long enough for most big raid tiers.

Did anyone else feel relieved and happy to hear this? I mean, they straight up admit that they fucked up bad with the end of MoP, and they're not trying to make any excuses about it. Plus that's almost a promise that it's not going to happen in WoD.

I think this is why 6.1 is so content-light, if you will. I think they're holding on to some content in case they need to churn out something really quick to avoid the now typical end of the xpac situation.

[thorvath]

The team's focus is on reducing the gap between the final content patch and the next expansion. Siege of Orgrimmar was way way too long. This expansion will have whatever number of raid tiers is necessary to avoid that situation. Six or seven months is long enough for most big raid tiers.

Did anyone else feel relieved and happy to hear this? I mean, they straight up admit that they fucked up bad with the end of MoP, and they're not trying to make any excuses about it. Plus that's almost a promise that it's not going to happen in WoD.

I think this is why 6.1 is so content-light, if you will. I think they're holding on to some content in case they need to churn out something really quick to avoid the now typical end of the xpac situation.

They said the same thing after Dragon Soul. And Icecrown.

The only time they did more than apologize after the fact that a patch took too long was in BC when they added Sunwell so there wasn't 10 months of Black Temple (even then for most people it was probably 2 years of Kara).

[Fayenoor]

I'd suggest that any groups that are not 90-95% Guild Groups or Mythic Groups should be mandated to use Personal Loot because the only reason that justifies using Master Looter in any form of PUG group is selfish in nature -- stealing drops for friends or fully gearing yourself in one go -- and that leads to loot abuse.

If you don't assume blatant "loot abuse" as a necessary part of the Master Loot system, in every way, Master Loot > Personal Loot and more so as the Tier progresses further in and gear slots start filling up with loot.

E.g. Person A only needs say a shoulder and a leg from a raid run. Person B only needs a ring and a neck. With Master Looter, odds of both A and B completing their set is higher than with personal loot -- the reason like you pointed out is loot eligibility vs loot need. With personal Loot, A can keep getting the same ring (which B needs) over and over again every run and B can keep getting the shoulder than A needs. Both are dissatisfied. With Master Looter, the ML can assign the ring to the right person and the shoulder to the right person. So, ML always win in a purely fair system.


Master Looter corruption (like any form of corruption) taints the system. This is why OpenRaid is so much better than WoW Group finder for Pugging content. Systems like OpenRaid run raids with Master Looter using Raid Leaders who have a very strong history of fairness (else they will be taken apart in their feedback).


On the other hand, one possible way of making Personal Loot more lucrative is to allow an "opt out of loot" option. I.e. boss X drops nothing of interest for me. I can choose to "opt out of loot" on Boss X but still help with the kill. This way th Personal Loot system won't roll the dice and give an item which I don't need.

[papajohn4]

Raid Finder being easier than heroic dungeons and giving better loot is partially due to it having a weekly lockout. You can run heroic dungeons repeatedly to quickly gear up. Raid Finder is a way for players to experience the content and story, as well as earning some meaningful upgrades. If Raid Finder gave worse loot than Heroic dungeons, participation would be lower, players would only run it a few times, and queue times would go up.

So dungeons will never be a progression path again, like TBC and WotLK because of LFR...Is this how your next expansions will roll as well? This is your casual content? Run LFR once a week and pay us the sub? pf... and I was confident about WoD..Back to FFXIV I guess

[Eace]

So dungeons will never be a progression path again, like TBC and WotLK because of LFR...Is this how your next expansions will roll as well? This is your casual content? Run LFR once a week and pay us the sub? pf... and I was confident about WoD..Back to FFXIV I guess

• Heroic dungeons are another area that could use some improvement. They aren't very useful right now in terms of gearing up. Valor or badges were a reason to run dungeons in the past, but they weren't a great way to do it. You would run a dungeon that you were far too strong for, which isn't fun. Challenge modes have a niche as challenging content for gear progression. You can't queue for them randomly and can only do one a day, but it is something.
• A Mythic version of dungeons is something that has been talked about internally, but nothing to announce right now. It would be nice for dungeons to remain relevant later in the expansion. Would increased numbers and item levels be enough, or would the dungeon need new mechanics to really be Mythic?

This is the first thing on the front page. I do agree with you that LFR shouldn't render HC dungeons completely useless for casual players and alts, and although that's pretty much the situation now, I'm hoping they can fix it going forward.

[bryroo]

Happy to hear they're still working on the Time Walker system. That would be a big plus in my book.

[AngryLakitu]

If you don't assume blatant "loot abuse" as a necessary part of the Master Loot system, in every way, Master Loot > Personal Loot and more so as the Tier progresses further in and gear slots start filling up with loot.

E.g. Person A only needs say a shoulder and a leg from a raid run. Person B only needs a ring and a neck. With Master Looter, odds of both A and B completing their set is higher than with personal loot -- the reason like you pointed out is loot eligibility vs loot need. With personal Loot, A can keep getting the same ring (which B needs) over and over again every run and B can keep getting the shoulder than A needs. Both are dissatisfied. With Master Looter, the ML can assign the ring to the right person and the shoulder to the right person. So, ML always win in a purely fair system.


Master Looter corruption (like any form of corruption) taints the system. This is why OpenRaid is so much better than WoW Group finder for Pugging content. Systems like OpenRaid run raids with Master Looter using Raid Leaders who have a very strong history of fairness (else they will be taken apart in their feedback).


On the other hand, one possible way of making Personal Loot more lucrative is to allow an "opt out of loot" option. I.e. boss X drops nothing of interest for me. I can choose to "opt out of loot" on Boss X but still help with the kill. This way th Personal Loot system won't roll the dice and give an item which I don't need.

I completely agree with you about the idea of loot eligibility vs loot need, but I think what I was kind of driving at was the idea to dissuade stalwart belief that Personal Loot is empirically a bad system. By taking "math is the same" as the basis for comparison, it would stand that they could have some kind of algorithm to help with this and that maybe we shouldn't just hate Personal Loot because it /feels/ unjust or different. Doubt in the 'infallible' Master Looter system is all I am trying to cast, because I think just as it is healthy to be skeptical of Personal Loot's secretive algorithms, I think it is fair to be optimistic they could have good methods in place as well.

I'd love to see a pre-raid, battleground exclusion type system in place to augment the Personal Loot system. Maybe that is too complex, but ultimately a way that loot-eligibility still counts, but loot distribution calculations are adjusted. They could even include a visible representation of the computer rolls as well. Click a button and it mimics a /roll command even though the actual processing has already happened in the background. To me, the bonus roll experience greatly exceeds that of the Master Looter and I'd love to see them blend it into the core Personal Loot experience as well.