1. #1
    Deleted

    Question about Spirit/mp5-calculation

    Hi guys,
    as mentioned in the title, this is about mp5 and Spirit.
    In that context, i have the following questions:

    1. Is there a linear correlation between spirit and mp5?
    2. Is the value, shown on mouseover an the spirit in my caracter information the mp5? "Mana regeneration in combat" is a bit vague.
    3. Is there still something like a 5-second-rule? As in the past, were you got more mana regeneration infight if you don't cast a spell for 5 seconds.

    I'm trying to decide wich trinket i should use ("mark of rapid replication" myth or "Darmac's unstable talisman" myth) and want to know how much flat mana i miss in e.g. 5min fight if i play without the 398 spirit from "mark of rapid replication".


    Would be very thankful for help
    Last edited by mmoc91ef082e59; 2015-02-27 at 09:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Question 1:
    Yes, 1 point of spirit = 2.061 mp5 in combat, at lvl 100

    Question 2:
    No. "Your mana regen in combat" displays all your combat based regen from spirit plus your base combat regen (which i believe is 3200 mp5 at lvl 100)

    Question 3:
    No, the 5 second is rule is long since dead and gone. Your combat regen is your combat regen, regardless of how often you cast.

    398 spirit is worth 820.28 mp5. In 5 mins that's 49,216.80 mana you would regen from that spirit.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2015-02-27 at 09:14 PM.

  3. #3
    Base mana regen (with 0 spirit) is 3200 mp5, or 160000 * .004 = 640 per second. 640 * 5 = 3200 mp5
    For each point of spirit you get 0.412207024 regen per second = 2.06103512 mp5.
    So the mana regen formula is: [Base mana regen] + (0.412207024 * (Spirit) * 5). Regen is rounded down.
    So yes, mana regen is linear with spirit.

    Mana regeneration in combat does exactly what it says. Once you enter combat that is the amount that you will regenerate every 5 seconds until you leave combat.

    The 5 second rule was removed with Cataclysm. The tooltip use to say something along the lines of "mp5 while not casting." Blizzard didn't like how people stopped casting to regen mana, so they made it completely based on whether you are in combat or not.

    So 'Mark of Rapid Replication' at 398 spirit will give you (398 * 0.412207024 * 5) = 820 mp5
    In a 5 minute fight, assuming there is no mana regen wasted (i.e. you are at 100% mana or dead), then you gain 49200 mana.

    This is assuming I didn't make any stupid mistakes in my math.
    Last edited by Xars; 2015-02-28 at 01:13 AM.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    lots of thanks to both of you

    ))

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xars View Post
    For each point of spirit you get 0.412207024 mp5.


    This is assuming I didn't make any stupid mistakes in my math.
    Won't lie, I don't follow that math. but that number doesn't look right to me.
    1) My calculations are showing 2.06mp5 per spirit as Keiyra said
    2) The character sheet tooltip is indeed mp5, it shows as your base 3200mp5 and your base 782 spirit resulting in 4811mp5 with no gear.
    3) 5sec rule is long gone

    398 spirit is 820mp5 (rounded), which is 9839 mana per minute or 49192.8 mana over 5min
    The real question is how much extra healing does the darmac trinket add over the emblem, and would you be able to drop enough filler casts to match the 50k mana regen without losing overall healing? Not to mention the higher burst potential from intellect and the diminishing value of spirit the shorter a fight becomes.
    Having done some similar maths myself for holy (mark of rapid replication vs quiescent runestone) the answer is yes, since the intellect gains effect all your spells and a large portion of healing comes from efficient spells with a CD (CoH / cascade / PoM), spirit has 0 effect on those spells and simply lets you cast more renew. If you're disc... unsure. Post back if you come to a conclusion

  6. #6
    People keep saying Spirit diminishes in value as the fight gets shorter - that actually goes the same for every other stat and is a really flawed premise to go on.

    Take Int for instance, you get to cast less spells which obviously results in a lesser benefit as the fight shortens.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    People keep saying Spirit diminishes in value as the fight gets shorter - that actually goes the same for every other stat and is a really flawed premise to go on.

    Take Int for instance, you get to cast less spells which obviously results in a lesser benefit as the fight shortens.
    You are obviously not considering the fact that there is a point where mana regeneration becomes obsolete. When the fight is short enough one does not actually have to gain any mana at all. So that is why you really have to think it the other way around, the longer the fight the more mana your spirit regenerated for you.

    And what comes to comparing other stats to spirit, while your statement does make sense, I think that just the value gain for spirit is higher than other offstats.
    I have no facts to back this up. But it makes sense to me when I run out of mana and really dont see any worth for otherstats at that point.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    People keep saying Spirit diminishes in value as the fight gets shorter - that actually goes the same for every other stat and is a really flawed premise to go on.

    Take Int for instance, you get to cast less spells which obviously results in a lesser benefit as the fight shortens.
    The difference is that you can have en excessive amount of spirit, which is hard to say about intellect. Ideally you want to have enough spirit to end up with 0 mana at the end of the fight while maintaining your most efficient "rotation". Your net mana is negative and you have a mana buffer of 160k, so the shorter the fight, the less spirit you need.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by sMau View Post
    You are obviously not considering the fact that there is a point where mana regeneration becomes obsolete. When the fight is short enough one does not actually have to gain any mana at all. So that is why you really have to think it the other way around, the longer the fight the more mana your spirit regenerated for you.

    And what comes to comparing other stats to spirit, while your statement does make sense, I think that just the value gain for spirit is higher than other offstats.
    I have no facts to back this up. But it makes sense to me when I run out of mana and really dont see any worth for otherstats at that point.
    There is such a point - the better question is, is that point anywhere near achievable?

    Unless it's a deep farm boss(in which case it really doesn't matter how your stats actually look like), you should always be able to cast in a way to oom yourself.

    Currently, even with 4k effective spirit(you need 2.8k base spirit with trinkets including 1.2k spirit from Solace on CD), you can't even sustain PW:S casts back to back for more than 4 minutes, much less so if you incorporate EAA PoH into your rotation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Overdispersion View Post
    The difference is that you can have en excessive amount of spirit, which is hard to say about intellect. Ideally you want to have enough spirit to end up with 0 mana at the end of the fight while maintaining your most efficient "rotation". Your net mana is negative and you have a mana buffer of 160k, so the shorter the fight, the less spirit you need.
    Unless you have upwards of more than 4k spirit and the fight is shorter than 4 minutes, your assertion cannot be true.

    And if it is, it means your casting priority and uptime(CPM) has serious optimization issues.

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    People keep saying Spirit diminishes in value as the fight gets shorter - that actually goes the same for every other stat and is a really flawed premise to go on.

    Take Int for instance, you get to cast less spells which obviously results in a lesser benefit as the fight shortens.
    I don't follow that logic at all. Int increases your healing by x%, if you cast 1 flash heal or 2 flash heals int is still going to offer the same %increase. The value of spirit however comes from allowing you to cast MORE spells (or more expensive spells). If you started a fight with 0 mana then it would be equal however you don't, you have mana to start with, the shorter the fight the more that initial mana is going to contribute to your ability to cast spells, a short fight may mean you can complete your desired casting whilst only diminishing that initial mana with no need for more, obviously you have base mana regen and lvl45 talents to supplement that and then spirit to contribute where needed.
    I'll agree that spirit continues to offer the same mp5 regardless of fight length, but the value of that mp5 is diminished by the contribution of your initial mana pool, which offers are larger % of your total mana over a fight the shorter the fight becomes.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    I don't follow that logic at all. Int increases your healing by x%, if you cast 1 flash heal or 2 flash heals int is still going to offer the same %increase. The value of spirit however comes from allowing you to cast MORE spells (or more expensive spells). If you started a fight with 0 mana then it would be equal however you don't, you have mana to start with, the shorter the fight the more that initial mana is going to contribute to your ability to cast spells, a short fight may mean you can complete your desired casting whilst only diminishing that initial mana with no need for more, obviously you have base mana regen and lvl45 talents to supplement that and then spirit to contribute where needed.
    And an example of such a fight on progression where spirit could ever run into diminished returns due to a fight's duration/damage output/base mana pool is....?

    All you are making a big fuss about is a very niche situation that is currently utterly unachievable on progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    I'll agree that spirit continues to offer the same mp5 regardless of fight length, but the value of that mp5 is diminished by the contribution of your initial mana pool, which offers are larger % of your total mana over a fight the shorter the fight becomes.
    So in the first part of your statement you pretty much say that spirit does not have diminishing returns, then in the second half you say it is diminished by your total mana pool.

    It is exactly as you posit in the first half of this snippet - regardless of your base mana pool, spirit grants x mp5; i.e. the former has absolute zero bearing on spirit's mana regeneration, and thus is not diminished in any way or form unless you have that much spirit that you can't oom by the end of the fight.

    When you can find a fight that 1) doesn't last longer than 4 minutes 2) isn't on deep farm 3) and you already have 4k effective spirit, then we can revisit this ridiculous notion that spirit has diminishing returns in a solely vacuum-based situation.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    I think you misunderstand my post, when I say diminish I literally mean 'to use up' nothing about diminishing returns anywhere.

    You also only seem to be seeing this in black and white, spirit doesn't go from having value to no value, but it loses importance when you can rely more on your initial mana pool
    Last edited by mmocc73a7e76d4; 2015-02-28 at 08:28 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Unless you have upwards of more than 4k spirit and the fight is shorter than 4 minutes, your assertion cannot be true.

    And if it is, it means your casting priority and uptime(CPM) has serious optimization issues.
    My calculation show that my most efficient casting priority requires no more than 1350 spirit in a 7 minute fight. That is with PoH on Archangel with 4pc; Cascade, Solace and Penance on CD and PW:S fillers (that's without Candle which gives me about 200 spirit).
    Last edited by Overdispersion; 2015-03-01 at 08:27 AM.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Overdispersion View Post
    My calculation show that my most efficient casting priority requires no more than 1350 spirit in a 7 minute fight. That is with PoH on Archangel with 4pc; Cascade, Solace and Penance on CD and PW:S fillers (that's without Candle which gives me about 200 spirit).
    with how much haste? That is to be considered since there is a point where you will cast way more PW:S. In terms of quick math: 540 additional haste requires >400 Spirit to compensate [1], with a non t17 sequence. Results must be re-computed with a updated sequence (the one of which you are talking)

    That is also the point, why I wanted to add to this thread that you have to be careful with mark of rapid replication (Auto-Repairing Autoclave respectively) since it does have a lot of spirit. But the additional spirit it provides compared to other spirit trinkets does NOT compensate compensate the mana you are losing through using haste as a secondary stat (proc/use) instead of another secondary stat trinket.

    [1] Compare: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post31833168

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sixthumbs View Post
    with how much haste? That is to be considered since there is a point where you will cast way more PW:S. In terms of quick math: 540 additional haste requires >400 Spirit to compensate [1], with a non t17 sequence. Results must be re-computed with a updated sequence (the one of which you are talking)

    That is also the point, why I wanted to add to this thread that you have to be careful with mark of rapid replication (Auto-Repairing Autoclave respectively) since it does have a lot of spirit. But the additional spirit it provides compared to other spirit trinkets does NOT compensate compensate the mana you are losing through using haste as a secondary stat (proc/use) instead of another secondary stat trinket.

    [1] Compare: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post31833168
    This was with 1.35s gcd with borrowed. I didn't take bloodlust into consideration and you probably won't need a fully channeled penance on every cd so the actual number is probably a bit higher than that. The 4pc is also worth about 400 spi, but I would trust Myllior's calcs more than mine since he's probbaly put more than 5 minutes into his works. I just threw something together in response to Pos to show that you don't need an infinite amount of spirit :P.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    And an example of such a fight on progression where spirit could ever run into diminished returns due to a fight's duration/damage output/base mana pool is....?

    All you are making a big fuss about is a very niche situation that is currently utterly unachievable on progression.
    I think you're getting caught up on the phrasing. Spirit's value is independent of raid time - it does not have 'diminishing returns'.

    But base mana does. In a 16 sec fight, your base mana provides 50k mp5. In a 16 minute fight, it provides 833 mp5.

    So in our 16 sec fight, Spirit is effectively meaningless because it can never hope to be even more than a small fraction of the effective mp5 of base mana - but in a 16 minute fight, Spirit is the lion's share of your available mana. Not because Spirit changes - but because base mana's value does.
    Last edited by VigilantRose; 2015-03-09 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Formatting error

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •