Just go haste for gems and chants?

[Deleted]

Hey all, first time poster, long time reader of mmo champ.

anywho, I am wondering if I should just be gemming/enchanting into haste since chiex is getting closer and closer to serenity. I don't have duplicate pieces to gem 1 haste and the other MS , and i don't have 10,000 temporal crystals to be constantly changing my gems and enchants per boss.

should i just mix it up and gem/chant some pieces haste and others Multistrike

or

should i be going with a purely haste or MS setup?

thanks in advance

[Babylonius]

Hey all, first time poster, long time reader of mmo champ.

anywho, I am wondering if I should just be gemming/enchanting into haste since chiex is getting closer and closer to serenity. I don't have duplicate pieces to gem 1 haste and the other MS , and i don't have 10,000 temporal crystals to be constantly changing my gems and enchants per boss.

should i just mix it up and gem/chant some pieces haste and others Multistrike

or

should i be going with a purely haste or MS setup?

thanks in advance

Assuming youre talking about WW, current best practice is to gem/enchant for MS and weapon enchant for haste.

[Kibster]

Hey all, first time poster, long time reader of mmo champ.

anywho, I am wondering if I should just be gemming/enchanting into haste since chiex is getting closer and closer to serenity. I don't have duplicate pieces to gem 1 haste and the other MS , and i don't have 10,000 temporal crystals to be constantly changing my gems and enchants per boss.

should i just mix it up and gem/chant some pieces haste and others Multistrike

or

should i be going with a purely haste or MS setup?

thanks in advance

MS is generally the stronger option since our single target is our weakest point. With 4pc the haste weapon enchant is better due to the possibility of going over the multistrike cap.

[Deleted]

MS is generally the stronger option since our single target is our weakest point. With 4pc the haste weapon enchant is better due to the possibility of going over the multistrike cap.

What? The 4piece increases MS damage not %

[B L A D E]

You should go look up the WW spreadsheet for 6.1 by Rotund.

It has some really interesting information. According to his research, Haste is actually better than Multistrike even singletarget.

Now, it's a known fact that Haste is two times better than Multistrike when it comes to Cleave/AoE with ChiEx/Ascension.
However, according to Rotunds research, Haste is actually still outscaling multistrike, it's only slightly dependable on your Haste rating but if you take a close look.


By using Ascension/Serenity, at 2970 haste rating is when both Haste and Multistrike becomes equal, from there on Multistrike outscales Haste, that's a lot of Haste needed for Multistrike to be very good.

For ChiBrew/Serenity, it's at a 1665 haste rating that they both become equal. It's some extremely high ratings for Multistrike to be equal to Haste on singletarget.
Now, I haven't heard any confirmations about what Rotund has posted is absolutely true but I haven't seen any multistrike ratings against it. I think it's a matter of testing out, i've personally seen a DPS increase in both single and cleave by going Haste enchants/gems with frostwolf enchant on my monk.

I think the theory is that since BRF gear contains so much Multistrike compared to Haste, you will be loosing out on the needed Haste to cast more spells. So I personally believe the best choice is to balance out both Haste and Multistrike while keeping Haste above your MS.

[rijn dael]

You should go look up the WW spreadsheet for 6.1 by Rotund.

It has some really interesting information. According to his research, Haste is actually better than Multistrike even singletarget.

Now, it's a known fact that Haste is two times better than Multistrike when it comes to Cleave/AoE with ChiEx/Ascension.
However, according to Rotunds research, Haste is actually still outscaling multistrike, it's only slightly dependable on your Haste rating but if you take a close look.

His spreadsheet suggests that CX is a 4-5% increase single target increase over serenity.. you can trust it if you want, but your dps will suffer. Recommending it to people trying to improve isn't going to help them.

[LoKSET]

Now, it's a known fact that Haste is two times better than Multistrike when it comes to Cleave/AoE with ChiEx/Ascension.

That is hardly a "known fact", it's plain wrong. No stat for monks is two times worse than any other (excluding mastery ofc) - not even crit and versatility. Even in mythic BRF gear Haste is around 10% better than MS in AOE/Cleave (due to high multistrike on gear and diminishing returns). If a player is at a lower gear level MS is better even in those situations. In single target multi is 10-15% better with mythic.
Overall it's recommended to gem and enchant for Multistrike with the exception of weapons which should go to Haste to avoid capping MS at 100% when multiple procs happen.

[yoy0lol]

So wait,

Assuming that I have two 670 weapons (HC raider ftl), does that mean I enchant haste on both my weapons?

[Deleted]

Hey guys I've made a spreadsheet that shows mastery is best stat above 3k of rating single target.


It's on a spreadsheet so = has to be true

[Deleted]

You should go look up the WW spreadsheet for 6.1 by Rotund.

It has some really interesting information. According to his research, Haste is actually better than Multistrike even singletarget.

Now, it's a known fact that Haste is two times better than Multistrike when it comes to Cleave/AoE with ChiEx/Ascension.
However, according to Rotunds research, Haste is actually still outscaling multistrike, it's only slightly dependable on your Haste rating but if you take a close look.


By using Ascension/Serenity, at 2970 haste rating is when both Haste and Multistrike becomes equal, from there on Multistrike outscales Haste, that's a lot of Haste needed for Multistrike to be very good.

For ChiBrew/Serenity, it's at a 1665 haste rating that they both become equal. It's some extremely high ratings for Multistrike to be equal to Haste on singletarget.
Now, I haven't heard any confirmations about what Rotund has posted is absolutely true but I haven't seen any multistrike ratings against it. I think it's a matter of testing out, i've personally seen a DPS increase in both single and cleave by going Haste enchants/gems with frostwolf enchant on my monk.

I think the theory is that since BRF gear contains so much Multistrike compared to Haste, you will be loosing out on the needed Haste to cast more spells. So I personally believe the best choice is to balance out both Haste and Multistrike while keeping Haste above your MS.

this is what i thought, i had seen rotunds research

thanks

[partyzuzu]

So wait,

Assuming that I have two 670 weapons (HC raider ftl), does that mean I enchant haste on both my weapons?

Would not recommend that since MS is better than haste with Serenity. From my personal simulations with 685 gear(only 2-set), i sim 500dps higher with Multistrike MH and haste OH, Then x2 MS or x2 Haste, but then again simulation craft could be wrong.

[rijn dael]

this is what i thought, i had seen rotunds research

thanks

And this is why misinformation should be deleted ;_;

Rotunds maths is wrong, his spreadsheet tells you to spec CX for single target ... how more obviously broken does it have to be?

Yet people keep propegating it without wondering why it doesn't even resemble actual parses on a patchwerk boss like gruul.

[Saltycracker]

Rotunds maths is wrong, his spreadsheet tells you to spec CX for single target ... how more obviously broken does it have to be?

I haven't seen any logs proving otherwise. As far as I know nobody has done a DPS test against a dummy with ChiExplosion vs Serenity and showed logs of it. It's a theory that hasn't been proven nor disproven. You can't look at warcraft logs and do an apples to apples comparison, because you can't control all the variables between them.

Also, my spreadsheet uses a very specific set of circumstances where ChiEx is better for single target, and that is where you can always use Chex at 3 chi, which while not impossible is hard to do (trimming chi with Tiger Palm and Fists of Fury). Futhermore, haste and multistrike are very close in value and frankly arguing which secondaries to pick up has minor effects on your overall DPS, not nearly as much as it used to; mastery is the only icky stat. Effort would be better spent learning to play each talent choice well so that you can swap between them as needed.

Haste is superior for chex builds, and haste and multistrike are about equal in value for serenity builds. Haste is not bad in any scenario. In fact, tiger strikes uptime scales exponentially with haste and only linearly with multistrike, so having more haste actually increases your effective multistrike.

To answer the OP's question, I would just look at how many encounters you would use Chex for, and how many serenity is for and whichever talent will get more use, pick that; as an aside you should always be specced for whatever encounter is the progression one at the moment regardless if you want peak performance.

[Deleted]

My spreadsheet uses a very specific set of circumstances where mastery is best for single target. Haste*Agility+Potato = upside down toaster

- - - Updated - - -

You can't disprove with logs it's 2 specific circumstance

- - - Updated - - -

Spread sheet defeat real life, upside down toaster win evry duel

[joshlightman]

You would also need to look at your current progression team. On a majority of BRF fights, multiple boss targets is a rare luxury monks have. Also, adds can be far and few between in some cases. So what you would also need to consider when creating your build is, are the adds dying without your damage input. If padding/ranking isn't your priority and would rather concentrate on relevant damage, opt for Multistrike/Serenity-Chibrew > Haste/Chiex-ascension on fights such as Beastlord or thogar, where you will still pile up the damage and rank well despite not opting for the mostly AoE Build.

[rijn dael]

I haven't seen any logs proving otherwise. As far as I know nobody has done a DPS test against a dummy with ChiExplosion vs Serenity and showed logs of it. It's a theory that hasn't been proven nor disproven. You can't look at warcraft logs and do an apples to apples comparison, because you can't control all the variables between them.

If you have a theory that can't ever be proven in an actual log, that goes contrary to very widely held belief and all logs, you shouldn't be trying to educate people. You are claiming much more than a trivial margin, if your spreadsheet was correct, 5%+ variance would be easy enough to demonstrate via a pug gruul log - warcraft logs has this nice feature to show only people with similar ilvl for comparisons. Go prove your theory.

Also, my spreadsheet uses a very specific set of circumstances where ChiEx is better for single target, and that is where you can always use Chex at 3 chi, which while not impossible is hard to do (trimming chi with Tiger Palm and Fists of Fury).

Clearly it must be hard to do - the only log I can find of you trying it resulted in your demise.

Futhermore, haste and multistrike are very close in value and frankly arguing which secondaries to pick up has minor effects on your overall DPS, not nearly as much as it used to; mastery is the only icky stat. Effort would be better spent learning to play each talent choice well so that you can swap between them as needed.

Most encounters that matter in the current tier are reduced to single target for us - only two fights strictly desire CX (H+F and maidens) - the first one of the easiest encounters in the instance, and the second being all about the 20% burn where you can reasonably argue multistrike wins out anyway.

Haste is nice enough on aoe, but there just isn't a predominance of it in brf - mostly its targets that will die to other classes, without them sacrificing boss dps to bring it. To be useful in your raid team, you generally need to bring priority single target damage, which seren does well enough at, and CX doesn't really do outside of lust.

If you want to argue "its close enough, don't worry" - why are you creating spreadsheets for exactly that reason?

[Saltycracker]

A theory can never be proven:

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

Granted I need to do my own experiments to support my theory. Next time I resub, or the PTR comes back, I'll do a few dummy tests (hopefully the game doesnt drastically change before then):

1) Crit weapon enchant, haste gems/enchants, Chex
2) Crit weapon enchant, haste gems/enchants, Serenity
3) Crit weapon enchant, MS gems/enchants, Chex
4) Crit weapon enchant, MS gems/enchants, Serenity

Just to get an idea of the damage distribution between builds/talents.

Until then I'll work on a version of the spreadsheet where the player can change the average Chi used for Chex. Using that will give me a good idea of where the two builds are normalized.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Change cell C16, and from what I can see avg of 3.5chi per explosion is where the two come even, granted with with less haste and more MS this may change.

Thanks for creeping my logs, but I haven't been raiding this whole expansion, only alt runs and Heroic runs to pad the loot table for my guild.