Spec Viability and Lack of Frost

[MrExcelion]

Buffing tier bonuses would be the right approach imo, kill two birds with one stone that way

[Alroxas]

What I find hilarious is that nobody* complained that much when frost was dominating Highmaul and the itemization was horrible for fire/arcane in Highmaul.

Let's just call a spade for what it is, BRF (for mages) is targeted at Fire/Arcane for the most maximization (both in terms of style of fights and gear itemization) whereas Frost had its ascent back in Highmaul.

Now honestly, unless you're in a Mythic raiding team, it really shouldn't matter as much assuming your overall team is decent.

[Deleted]

What I find hilarious is that nobody* complained that much when frost was dominating Highmaul and the itemization was horrible for fire/arcane in Highmaul.

Let's just call a spade for what it is, BRF (for mages) is targeted at Fire/Arcane for the most maximization (both in terms of style of fights and gear itemization) whereas Frost had its ascent back in Highmaul.

Now honestly, unless you're in a Mythic raiding team, it really shouldn't matter as much assuming your overall team is decent.

Frost wasn't dominating in Highmaul, it was just very very strong on the opening week.

[Sheridanjohn]

Although it is behind i don't think it is as far behind as logs represent.
You have to remember you not only have a smaller number of parses resulting in most likely very few, if any, great player logging as frost.
On top of this, all the mythic logs are 5-10 ilvls lower then the arcane/fire parses (680-685 v 688-695)

[Nohara]

Fire/Frost here, Fire for multitarget fights, Frost singletarget. Yes, Arcane is better, but for Heroic content, it doesnt really matter.

[Sw1tch]

Fire/Frost here, Fire for multitarget fights, Frost singletarget. Yes, Arcane is better, but for Heroic content, it doesnt really matter.

I tend to disagree. Even if your teammates are underperforming by a couple thousand, you should still be viewing it as being able to mitigate their lack of performance with more damage. Every point of damage matters for progression, even heroic. Pointing fingers doesn't down bosses, even if it's true that others aren't performing up to par.

[Deleted]

Frost is perfectly good imo, even for progression raids. A lot of people are playing arcane/fire because either

a) they saw the charts on simcraft and just looked at the highest performing spec without putting any thought into it
b) they want to min/max their damage as much as possible and are comfortable with playing 2 specs and 3-4 different talent combinations for the whole raid
c) arcane+fire may not be optimal on some fights, but it shines on more fights than frost alone does
d) they felt like respeccing; i always felt like those two were the "right" raiding specs even though it doesn't really make any sense

I don't think frost needs any kind of particular strength in encounters. The design of one spec being stronger on aoe, one on single target and one being very versatile but still powerful is really good. Frost is a great spec for casuals and alts, but it's strong enough to pull its weight in every encounter as well.

Frost is just ok for every fight, but it is not best choice for any boss in BRF. It's just lazy option. For mythic progression you want best, not just ok spec.

[Deleted]

I tend to disagree. Even if your teammates are underperforming by a couple thousand, you should still be viewing it as being able to mitigate their lack of performance with more damage. Every point of damage matters for progression, even heroic. Pointing fingers doesn't down bosses, even if it's true that others aren't performing up to par.

There is a limit tho.

You have to value your own "personal fun" playing a spec, against doing top dps.
In a Mythic enviroment you prefer the later, but people in more casual minded guilds will tend to focus on enjoyment.

I for one, miss my frost spec - But will be Fire/Arcane for progression. When I am done, I might change one of them back to frost for funs!

[scwasp]

Frost wasn't dominating in Highmaul, it was just very very strong on the opening week.

Fire and Arcane were completely and utterly unviable until blizzard buffed the everliving hell out of them. And even after that buff, it took several weeks before I started seeing mages in the topguilds switching over fulltime to fire and/or arcane

[Deleted]

Fire and Arcane were completely and utterly unviable until blizzard buffed the everliving hell out of them. And even after that buff, it took several weeks before I started seeing mages in the topguilds switching over fulltime to fire and/or arcane

Butcher Mythic was done mostly as arcane as early as second week and Fire was progressed on Tectus instantly! Not to mention that Arcane was played on Imperator as well as early as 3d week.

[Sickjen]

Mage's in general destroy dps, actually are in one of the best spots right now. Rouges deal with the same thing x spec being better for x fight for x reason. I think i would prioritize some other class buffs before mages considering how arcane and fire are parsing.

The argument here is why play frost when arcane hits way harder?
Why play frost when fire has better AOE?

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html

Frost has average of both single target and AOE. So if buffed to much it will outshine the other 2 specs.

[unbound]

Fun fact: Frost still beats Fire in purely single-target fights, even in full Mythic BiS.

No, no it isn't. It's dead last by more than 20% on pure single-target fights compared to either fire or arcane -

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...1706&bracket=4
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...691&dataset=99

Go back to heroic, and the gap between the specs is a lot closer, but it clearly shows that Frost is the worst scaling spec bar none.

[Sickjen]

No, no it isn't. It's dead last by more than 20% on pure single-target fights compared to either fire or arcane -

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...1706&bracket=4
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...691&dataset=99

Go back to heroic, and the gap between the specs is a lot closer, but it clearly shows that Frost is the worst scaling spec bar none.

mythic butcher isn't a patchwerk fight there are adds not a good example.

[Scort]

There are 16 ranks for frost on mythic Gruul and none of those mages had ilvls close to their arcane or fire counterparts. When progression is over for most guilds and top parsing mages can afford to play frost the gap will be much smaller.

Any time there's a noticeable difference between our specs the lowest is always going to see very little play except for the players most dedicated to that spec. In Highmaul before the buffs to arcane and fire I believe the figure was 96% of parses were frost.

[gallamann]

There are 16 ranks for frost on mythic Gruul and none of those mages had ilvls close to their arcane or fire counterparts. When progression is over for most guilds and top parsing mages can afford to play frost the gap will be much smaller.

Any time there's a noticeable difference between our specs the lowest is always going to see very little play except for the players most dedicated to that spec. In Highmaul before the buffs to arcane and fire I believe the figure was 96% of parses were frost.

I bet if you looked now, 96% are not playing frost... neither situation should exist and they certainly buffed fire/arcane much quicker than they have frost. Almost double the time BRF has been out compared to HM out... no Frost buff

[Sw1tch]

No, no it isn't. It's dead last by more than 20% on pure single-target fights compared to either fire or arcane -

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...1706&bracket=4
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...691&dataset=99

Go back to heroic, and the gap between the specs is a lot closer, but it clearly shows that Frost is the worst scaling spec bar none.

I have to disagree with this data. The amount of parses present compared to the other specs is awful. Not to mention that the set bonuses are further exaggerating it. Yes, Frost needs help (relative to the other specs), but it's not that bad. SimC still has it at upper middle for both single target and AoE for Heroic/Mythic.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html
http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

The problem I'm trying to address is that there is no situation where Frost is optimal. AoE = Fire. ST = Arcane.

With how WoW Raiding works now, there is no place for a jack of all trades-master of none spec when you can simply switch between the two best for any individual situation. This is even FURTHER emphasized by how mastery is just amazing to stack for both Arcane and Fire...and how sub-par it is for frost. And conversely how sub-par MS is for Arcane/Fire. It's like they did everything they could in BRF to hinder frost.

That's the problem. Yes, the itemization in BRF and the set bonuses are exaggerating differences....BUT, even despite those two things, Arcane and Fire pass Frost on Single Target and AoE (respectively). Even if frost has a good set bonus and the next tier has good itemization, nothing will change at those high ilvls unless Frost receives some love.

[oraz4000]

Blackrock foundry is just a Fire mage dream come true it certainly makes the spec shine i suspect next tier may return to more traditional boss encounters similar to Highmaul and Frost will get some more playtime.

[Deleted]

First world mage problems.. Help, only two out of my three specs are viable!

[oraz4000]

First world mage problems.. Help, only two out of my three specs are viable!

Yer pretty much bit greedy to ask for 3 of our specs to be top 5.

[Deleted]

Yer pretty much bit greedy to ask for 3 of our specs to be top 5.

Okay this is for you to understand what the complaints are about..... because this comes back far too often. It doesn't matter if the spec is on the top 5. If 3 specs are in top 3. The issue is when you should never go for a spec because it's middle of the pack at everything it does (compared to the other two specs). That's a problem. You can say it's whiny, but it's still a problem.