Help on cleave fights like Operator and Beastlord

[sk8jack]

Heya guys, for cleave fights such as Operator Thogar and Beastlord Darmac, I noticed my rankings are around the 60 percentile on WCL.
For ST sub fights I have no problem hitting 90 or more percentile.

Here's my WCL on yesterday's heroic BRF: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=rankings

Hence I'm wondering what should I do to improve on fights like Operator and Beastlord.
I have 4 pc set bonus which mean my red buff comes relatively fast, so should I hold back my red buff till adds phase before I pop KS, trinket etc?
Looking at Beastlord for example, my damage on pack beasts are slightly higher compared to damage done on Darmac, and when I look at the higher percentile players' logs, they have significantly higher damage done on the pack beasts.
Appreciate if anyone is able to help me out, thanks!

[Deleted]

A lot of people abuse logs on these fights so instead of 8 people doing the pack beasts, they'll have 1-2 rogues do it so they can parse higher in dps. It's not a reflection of you playing badly.

Generally I would wait with your CDs, unless your guild is struggling ST. Kagraz for example I KS at green insight, but I save ADR for dogs, by which time KS is back up. (Mythic)

[Auress]

Don't use Crimson Tempest. It's higher DPS to just Eviscerate.

[Fiska]

I've been getting some 1st place rankings as Combat for the two fights in mention, and I don't hold back on cooldowns until adds appear. This is mostly because my guild's ST output isn't the highest, so my full output is needed for ST.

With that said, Alexi is largely correct. Though our guild doesn't "abuse" the fights like he describes, the reason I'm getting high ranks on AoE fights is because the adds live longer than normal, allowing me to use Blade Flurry a lot more than normal. It happens by incident though, as we have never actively asked people to play in a certain way just to get me up on ranks.

There's been some discussion about how "little" correct stats matter to Rogues lately, but I will anyway add that I'm purely Combat specced, gearing for Haste then Multistrike.

[Holycrap1]

The raids totalt AOE has a lot to say for your DPS. I have done top rankings on thogar and darmac, but now that my raid team has catched up in terms of damage, my damage is lower.

[Daedelus]

You're only going to parse really high if you are doing the lions share of AOE damage. If you have a few other very good aoe classes/specs in there with you, you'll get your kills "sniped" because the adds on those two encounters just don't live long enough.

[shaithis]

It's also heavily reliant on tank positioning. My own logs on this fight are terrible because of the way that we tank the boss - get almost no uptime on beasts unless I go to where they spawn, which by itself is not efficient. Don't sweat it, benchmark your cleave performance on Maidens and Arnold instead.

[Layke]

To reinforce what others have already said, your raids composition heavily impacts AoE fights. We have 2 Warlocks, 3 Fire Mages, 2 BM Hunters, 2 DKs, an Enh Shaman and a Boomie. All amazing raiders. Adds *melt*. Literally. I often still have KS running after the adds die. Simply put, to rank on those fights, you need a bad comp, weaker players, or to be placed on the ads full time (Like for our Mythic Beastlord, we only let the 2 Warlocks and an Enh Shaman attack the adds. Naturally, they do insane damage).

My word of advice if this is the case, is play Sub if you're able. That's what I do on Mythic Beastlord. The ST damage needed for the boss is still very important, if not the most important part of the fight. Looking at overalll damage, sure, I'm lower due to the nature of Sub. But when you look at damage done to the mounts and boss, I'm always in the top 3 (except Cruelfang, I'm the one that Shivs Beastlord!)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...est/#boss=1694 That's our most recent kill, and shows that Sub, if played correctly, can still be very effective and useful, even on cleave/AoE fights. Play to your strengths.

[Deleted]

Parses on heavy cleave fights have more to do with raid comp and pandering to people who want to rank than actual skill, just focus on boss damage unless your raid is actually having trouble with the adds.

In the event that they are having trouble with the adds, then things like optimal boss/add positioning etc come into play and in that case it isn't your fault either.

Blade flurry is a stupid proof AoE, assuming you are pressing 1 and 2 and have blade flurry activated, and there are actually adds within 8 yards to cleave you will do a retarded amount of damage without any effort.

If you actually want to pad, then saving cooldowns for the packs can work wonders, also optimizing bandits guile for when the packs come out. Most of the high ranking parses will see the adds pulled in by a grip, that way blade and killing spree hits every add every time and your numbers go through the roof.

Having said this, if your raid group is already full of ranged AoE classes (hunters and mages), packs will not reach the boss in time for you to start cleaving effectively, so you are left with the choice of whether to pull off the boss and go pop a cooldown on the nascent adds or just stay on the boss. I'd recommend just staying on the boss in this case, as even if you pull off you aren't going to be doing anywhere near the damage you would if the adds were gripped in for cleave.

Specifically for Thorgar, being sent to the group that takes Thorgar during the split phase makes a very large difference in where you end up on the DPS meter. The split group that has him invariably does a lot more damage.

[jtstormrage]

Most top ranks are because:

- low AOE in the raid. If you have lots of DKs and Warriors, the adds die in seconds.
- players being bad and not using Feint, and standing in the bleed. Those players will also do more damage, but will (or should) get kicked from the raid team.

[Moejahi3d]

I find that most "fair" fights to compare yourself with are Gruul +Flamebender + Oregorger(If you have persmission to ffa and go ham on cases..shows how bad ass you are:P) And to some extent Maidens (if the tank actually knows how to move the boss to the save spot with the rest of dps) - Blackhand If you don't need to go to the balcony.

Kromog - Operator - Blast furnace - beast..basically all AOE heavy fights really depend on raid comp and the way the raid handles the fight, do you get to take a spot in the middle of hands? Or does your guild stick you on the outside, Are you on the side with felspar? Or the side with a lot more downtime, how fast do pack beasts die? Do tanks even pull them to the boss or are they already almost dead by the time they get there? etc etc...you can even try to pad meters with the spears if they are close to him but what for? Most groups assign a guy to them anyway.

On fights like that you should look at dps + Dmg taken. Avoiding dmg is a lot more important than pushing out a few more K on silly adds etc.

[B L A D E]

Another factor is also where and what you put your DPS into.

Take another glance at your log, you are number 4 on boss damage compared to the warrior and warlock, that doesn't has as much boss damage but just more AoE.
- This is what really matters anyway during progression. Putting most damage on important targets and especially on Operator, it's very good to have decent boss damage while keeping up with the AoE as you did since the encounter has a nasty enrage timer.

Do not save CD for something that is unimportant. If the 'huge pack of adds' on Operator dies extremely fast as you did, since you have a demo wlock+warrior and if you haven't been specifically assigned to make certain that they die quickly then do not save a CD for it, it's completely unimportant to you, if it's already being handled by someone else. Use your CDs on the boss or other important targets, that you are meant to kill. Like Man at Arms/Firemender, use your CDs on those instead, time your CDs with them, spend ur second pot on them if needed to get through progression.
During progression, nobody cares about how 'big' your DPS is, it doesn't matter that you did 20m to Pack Beasts on Beastlord but only like 2m on the boss himself. It's not going to kill the boss by killing pack beasts. If you weren't specifically assigned to take care of those pack beasts then you need to have more boss damage and less add damage.
DPS distribution is the most important factor of downing hard encounters. It doesn't matter how 'good' you look on logs if it's not going to kill the boss anyway, it all matters about killing the bosses in the end, that's why we raid, to kill the bosses, not to look good on warcraftlogs, Skada, Recount w/e.

[jtstormrage]

Another factor is also where and what you put your DPS into.

Take another glance at your log, you are number 4 on boss damage compared to the warrior and warlock, that doesn't has as much boss damage but just more AoE.
- This is what really matters anyway during progression. Putting most damage on important targets and especially on Operator, it's very good to have decent boss damage while keeping up with the AoE as you did since the encounter has a nasty enrage timer.

Do not save CD for something that is unimportant. If the 'huge pack of adds' on Operator dies extremely fast as you did, since you have a demo wlock+warrior and if you haven't been specifically assigned to make certain that they die quickly then do not save a CD for it, it's completely unimportant to you, if it's already being handled by someone else. Use your CDs on the boss or other important targets, that you are meant to kill. Like Man at Arms/Firemender, use your CDs on those instead, time your CDs with them, spend ur second pot on them if needed to get through progression.
During progression, nobody cares about how 'big' your DPS is, it doesn't matter that you did 20m to Pack Beasts on Beastlord but only like 2m on the boss himself. It's not going to kill the boss by killing pack beasts. If you weren't specifically assigned to take care of those pack beasts then you need to have more boss damage and less add damage.
DPS distribution is the most important factor of downing hard encounters. It doesn't matter how 'good' you look on logs if it's not going to kill the boss anyway, it all matters about killing the bosses in the end, that's why we raid, to kill the bosses, not to look good on warcraftlogs, Skada, Recount w/e.

Fully agree with this. Good players focus on getting the job done, and prioritising survivability and focussing dps where it matters.

I wish there were ranks for "lowest damage taken" or "best performance of mechanics" and they were respected.

[Moejahi3d]

Fully agree with this. Good players focus on getting the job done, and prioritising survivability and focussing dps where it matters.

I wish there were ranks for "lowest damage taken" or "best performance of mechanics" and they were respected.

the new Askmrrobot logs actually take dmg taken in consideration(avoidable), the pots you used, interrrupts (for the whole raid) etc and gives you a grade between 1-10.

I've been in so many pugs where a rogue would do good dmg, we'd basically tie but if you look at dmg taken he'd have 300% more dmg taken just because he never uses feint during "critical" moments..for example the Slam for kromog, Oregor when he hits a wall etc etc. And most don't even care: "Yeah well, he died right so the extra healing was np im here to do dmg". Guess it's just how one prefers to play :P

[Athonel]

I've been considering going sub on some of these aoe fights. We have 2 enh shaman, 2 ret pallies, 2 demo locks, a warrior, a fire mage, and another combat rogue. It's just not worth my time. I can got sub and get a lot more damage on the boss and help the guild kill the boss faster.

[Biomega]

help the guild kill the boss faster.

If this is what the end result is, then you SHOULD do it. It's not 19 other people's job to boost your meter epeen anyway, right?

[Jaronicity]

I've been considering going sub on some of these aoe fights. We have 2 enh shaman, 2 ret pallies, 2 demo locks, a warrior, a fire mage, and another combat rogue. It's just not worth my time. I can got sub and get a lot more damage on the boss and help the guild kill the boss faster.

I started going Sub on our kills for that reason. First heroic Thogar kill I went sub because, while DPS was high, a lot of it was aoe padding. Told the RL I was going to go more ST and that even though it might look sad relative to others on the meter, it will help kill the boss. Think we one or two shot after that. Considering going Sub on Darmac as well and we have half the aoe DPS you do. Just doesn't stay alive long enough to matter, IMO.