[Megathread] The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited

[Ghostpanther]

I just read the class balance notes for the latest patch and I really have no words for the class development team of the game. Somebody needs to explain to them that a) massive changes every 3 months please almost nobody, b) you can't be making massive changes like that based on what a small percentage of high-end players do or not and c) Blizzard tried this whole crap with ability standardisation (they called it "Class Identity"), very few people liked it and it's one of the main reasons so many players left wow and got to ESO.

Way to turn someone's excitement about the game to complete apathy in 3 months ZOS. Bravo, even WoW took longer than that

I agree. That is one of the main reasons I quit WoW after playing it for years. Really became annoying to be constantly changing your char play style because of them. The big class/skill changes a few months ago for ESO, was really a downer for the game. I still play it and enjoy it, but this crap of class balancing is something which should have been finalized after the game was out for maybe a year or two.

[Aliven]

If it was, they'd lose a big reason to sub up : P

It's seriously one of the best sub perks I can think of. Fully optional and doesn't directly contribute to power, but is a huge convenience boost. It's a good motivator to get folks to sub while playing on top of giving them access to the free DLC's (that many will already own via the cash shop stipend).

Well it is not fully optional when there is no way other than creating mules or hinder your gameplay (no crafting almost) to move around not having it.

Game is designed with this in mind. Crafted sets are very good or even end game worthy (maybe not now, was when i checked morrowind), there is a shit ton things in every container, the ways to increase basic space is tedious grind or just timegate spanning 2 months.

Yes, it is a great perk, because was made to punish those who dont have it.

And i would be 10 times happy to throw money on them IF they stopped those shitty pracitices.

[Witchblade77]

Well it is not fully optional when there is no way other than creating mules or hinder your gameplay (no crafting almost) to move around not having it.

Game is designed with this in mind. Crafted sets are very good or even end game worthy (maybe not now, was when i checked morrowind), there is a shit ton things in every container, the ways to increase basic space is tedious grind or just timegate spanning 2 months.

Yes, it is a great perk, because was made to punish those who dont have it.

And i would be 10 times happy to throw money on them IF they stopped those shitty pracitices.

umm... small history lesson.

craft bag didn't originally exist in game. it wasn't added until much later. it wasn't created to punish people who are not subscribing. it was created as incentive to stay subscribed after the game no longer required a subscription. the game you are playing when you are not subscribed? is how the game worked originally. well.. almost, there are still improvements... like consolidated soul stones (which used to be level based, ugh, that part sucked)

[Edge-]

Well it is not fully optional when there is no way other than creating mules or hinder your gameplay (no crafting almost) to move around not having it.

If you're a packrat, yeah. But you can buy bank extensions to help house all those materials too, no?

Game is designed with this in mind. Crafted sets are very good or even end game worthy (maybe not now, was when i checked morrowind), there is a shit ton things in every container, the ways to increase basic space is tedious grind or just timegate spanning 2 months.

Not in the slightest, this wasn't a perk until after the B2P transition and I don't know of any major changes they made to crafting/loot between launch and that transition that would have caused this. The game has always seemed to have a more crafting focus, but even then unless you're crafting for everything you don't need a lot of materials sitting around.

Yes, it is a great perk, because was made to punish those who dont have it.

No, it's not at all. If they were punishing players they'd take the SWTOR approach and do something like limit action bars (not possible in this game) or lock people out of equipping epic gear unless they bought an unlock/subbed.

This was a new feature added to the game for the B2P transition unless my memory is failing me. It was specifically to add something extra for subs rather than take something away from non-subs.

They took a B2P-Positive approach of keeping teh base experience the same for non-subs, which is what we should be wanting, rather than the B2P-negative approach that takes things away from non-subs and only leaves them for those that remain subscribed (again: see SWTOR).

[Witchblade77]

If you're a packrat, yeah. But you can buy bank extensions to help house all those materials too, no?



Not in the slightest, this wasn't a perk until after the B2P transition and I don't know of any major changes they made to crafting/loot between launch and that transition that would have caused this. The game has always seemed to have a more crafting focus, but even then unless you're crafting for everything you don't need a lot of materials sitting around.



No, it's not at all. If they were punishing players they'd take the SWTOR approach and do something like limit action bars (not possible in this game) or lock people out of equipping epic gear unless they bought an unlock/subbed.

This was a new feature added to the game for the B2P transition unless my memory is failing me. It was specifically to add something extra for subs rather than take something away from non-subs.

They took a B2P-Positive approach of keeping teh base experience the same for non-subs, which is what we should be wanting, rather than the B2P-negative approach that takes things away from non-subs and only leaves them for those that remain subscribed (again: see SWTOR).

you are very much correct on all counts.

[Koriani]

Yea - seriously - TESO has the best 'b2p' bonuses - for a non-sub - than any other game.

They actually allow you to still play the base game, just fine - with no sub. Forever. They allow you to buy all of the DLC, etc. and pay for it *once* (without a sub) and play *everything* available - for no additional sub.

There's not a single other "freemium" MMO that allows players to play so "normal" without paying a sub. Most other models several limit every aspect of game play, if you don't have a sub. Most other models try to nikel and dime you for every little thing, "a la carte", if you don't sub. They absolutely base it off of a "punishment" aspect to get you to sub.

So no thank you - I'll take the TESO x10 over the way every other game does it. It would be beyond stupid of a company trying to make money to take away the 'big perks' of subbing vs. freemium. There *has* to be actual incentive, actual bonuses, to get someone to sub every month vs. only buying the game and never subbing. If you want the MMO profit margin to be big enough that they even *make* expansions and DLCs - then you need those monthly subs. So you need to make it "worth it."

And that unlimited craft bag *absolutely* makes it worth it.

Just giving free crowns isn't enough. Many other Freemium game try that as their only perk, and those games flounder or go into maintenance mode. Its not enough of a perk.

Yes, the craft bag is, for tons of paying players, the main reason they pay. That's a reason to keep it that way - because the subs are necessary for the health and sustainability for the game. Its not a reason to drop it as a bonus just to make freemium players happy. That makes zippo logical sense.

And to make up the profit difference - TESO would have to then turn to the *really* predatory store practices of other games in order to make up the difference. They'd start charging to be able to have all your gold (like swtor), they'd start charging to be able to gain experience at the same rate as paying players (like swtor, like SW, like so many do). They'd start charging to be able to use the outfit stations, hide helmet, per house, per EVERYTHING to make it up.

Um No. Dumbasses. Stop asking. Its the only part of the game you are missing in order to play 100% the way you want - accept that. Accept that no - you can't have everything you want for a one time purchase of 30 or 50 bucks. You can't have something for nothing. If you want the rest, you gotta pay for it. Just like everyone else.

No way would I trade TESO current freemium vs sub model for ANY of the ways the other games do it. TESO has managed to keep it still a playable game for b2p/freemium players - while providing real reasons to pay for a sub. Actual benefits for paying, WITHOUT actual punishment for not.

I wish the rest of the games would design their models like TESO. I WISH they were half as fair!

But no, its not required for you to hoard every craft mat to play this game. Its not even required you need to craft hardly at all to do anything else in this game.

If you want the unlimited craft bag - pay what its worth to you. If its not worth it, it ain't worth it. You get to have everything else in game for not a penny more than you already spent - be happy for that. Or go play the upteen other "free" MMOs that don't allow you any of it.

[Skizzit]

And to make up the profit difference - TESO would have to then turn to the *really* predatory store practices of other games in order to make up the difference. They'd start charging to be able to have all your gold (like swtor), they'd start charging to be able to gain experience at the same rate as paying players (like swtor, like SW, like so many do). They'd start charging to be able to use the outfit stations, hide helmet, per house, per EVERYTHING to make it up.

Just small correction here. Buying the sub does get you a 10% increase in XP and gold gain (and I believe trait research rate as well) and you also need the sub to be able to dye costumes. That said, after playing both with and without the sub I never really noticed that big of a difference with XP gain. And the costume dying is nice, but you can still dye regular armor outfits without the sub, you just have to pay for it with gold like normal.

[Fkiolaris]

They took a B2P-Positive approach of keeping teh base experience the same for non-subs, which is what we should be wanting, rather than the B2P-negative approach that takes things away from non-subs and only leaves them for those that remain subscribed (again: see SWTOR).

I often don't agree with your point of view on various topics, but this is actually the best way I have seen these models described. Thanks and if I am allowed I will be borrowing this in future conversations

Regarding the craft bag, I think it's a nice bonus to have for the sub. My main issue with it, even though it's kind of trivial in some respects, is that they removed the ability to mail items between your characters so the only way to share crafting items (and not only) between characters is via the double-space bank and the crafting bag, both from the sub, or via someone you really trust.

[Witchblade77]

I often don't agree with your point of view on various topics, but this is actually the best way I have seen these models described. Thanks and if I am allowed I will be borrowing this in future conversations

Regarding the craft bag, I think it's a nice bonus to have for the sub. My main issue with it, even though it's kind of trivial in some respects, is that they removed the ability to mail items between your characters so the only way to share crafting items (and not only) between characters is via the double-space bank and the crafting bag, both from the sub, or via someone you really trust.

you don't need double space in a bank to share mats. you just need some space in a bank, period. my side account has no subscription and I just hold mats in a regular bank there. it does force you to be a lot more careful with hoarding tendencies, but even then, we now have an ability to get extra storage for all the extra gear sets and furniture you might be saving up.

last but not least - couple of times a year, they offer free ESO plus trials for a few days, I usually consolidate my mats and dye any new costumes i may have gotten -then

[Fkiolaris]

you don't need double space in a bank to share mats. you just need some space in a bank, period. my side account has no subscription and I just hold mats in a regular bank there. it does force you to be a lot more careful with hoarding tendencies, but even then, we now have an ability to get extra storage for all the extra gear sets and furniture you might be saving up.

last but not least - couple of times a year, they offer free ESO plus trials for a few days, I usually consolidate my mats and dye any new costumes i may have gotten -then

I worded it wrongly- of course you don't, but if you collect sets for 4-5 alts for which you want to try different playstyles, then double bank-space is as important as the crafter's bag for sharing gear between them- unless you want to play inventory management. As for the ESO plus trials, I aim to do as you described.

[Witchblade77]

I worded it wrongly- of course you don't, but if you collect sets for 4-5 alts for which you want to try different playstyles, then double bank-space is as important as the crafter's bag for sharing gear between them- unless you want to play inventory management. As for the ESO plus trials, I aim to do as you described.

oh I get it. my storage boxes are absolutely FULL of the various interesting sets I wanted to try or saving up for alts. the benefit of storage is that you can use it in inn rooms and you can label the boxes. I have monster sets, world drop stam, world drop magika, trials stam, trials magika, etc etc. separate boxes by category, which makes it easier to find what I'm looking for.

[Lazuli]

Once I realized you mainly stick to a few sets per character, I had unlimited storage space lol. Collecting every set piece under the sun just isn't worth it, I'll specifically farm another set if I need it. There are some obvious exceptions like monster pieces but ya know.

[Aliven]

Yea - seriously - TESO has the best 'b2p' bonuses - for a non-sub - than any other game.

They actually allow you to still play the base game, just fine - with no sub. Forever. They allow you to buy all of the DLC, etc. and pay for it *once* (without a sub) and play *everything* available - for no additional sub.

There's not a single other "freemium" MMO that allows players to play so "normal" without paying a sub. Most other models several limit every aspect of game play, if you don't have a sub. Most other models try to nikel and dime you for every little thing, "a la carte", if you don't sub. They absolutely base it off of a "punishment" aspect to get you to sub.

So no thank you - I'll take the TESO x10 over the way every other game does it. It would be beyond stupid of a company trying to make money to take away the 'big perks' of subbing vs. freemium. There *has* to be actual incentive, actual bonuses, to get someone to sub every month vs. only buying the game and never subbing. If you want the MMO profit margin to be big enough that they even *make* expansions and DLCs - then you need those monthly subs. So you need to make it "worth it."

And that unlimited craft bag *absolutely* makes it worth it.

Just giving free crowns isn't enough. Many other Freemium game try that as their only perk, and those games flounder or go into maintenance mode. Its not enough of a perk.

Yes, the craft bag is, for tons of paying players, the main reason they pay. That's a reason to keep it that way - because the subs are necessary for the health and sustainability for the game. Its not a reason to drop it as a bonus just to make freemium players happy. That makes zippo logical sense.

And to make up the profit difference - TESO would have to then turn to the *really* predatory store practices of other games in order to make up the difference. They'd start charging to be able to have all your gold (like swtor), they'd start charging to be able to gain experience at the same rate as paying players (like swtor, like SW, like so many do). They'd start charging to be able to use the outfit stations, hide helmet, per house, per EVERYTHING to make it up.

Um No. Dumbasses. Stop asking. Its the only part of the game you are missing in order to play 100% the way you want - accept that. Accept that no - you can't have everything you want for a one time purchase of 30 or 50 bucks. You can't have something for nothing. If you want the rest, you gotta pay for it. Just like everyone else.

No way would I trade TESO current freemium vs sub model for ANY of the ways the other games do it. TESO has managed to keep it still a playable game for b2p/freemium players - while providing real reasons to pay for a sub. Actual benefits for paying, WITHOUT actual punishment for not.

I wish the rest of the games would design their models like TESO. I WISH they were half as fair!

But no, its not required for you to hoard every craft mat to play this game. Its not even required you need to craft hardly at all to do anything else in this game.

If you want the unlimited craft bag - pay what its worth to you. If its not worth it, it ain't worth it. You get to have everything else in game for not a penny more than you already spent - be happy for that. Or go play the upteen other "free" MMOs that don't allow you any of it.

Guild wars 2.
Better in every regard.

[Justpassing]

Guild wars 2.
Better in every regard.

Man come on, you have to fork over cash to mog your gear in Fashion Wars 2.

[Aliven]

Man come on, you have to fork over cash to mog your gear in Fashion Wars 2.

Transmute charges? They are like raining from playing the game :P

[Justpassing]

Transmute charges? They are like raining from playing the game :P

Mayhap enough for you, but not enough for freaks like me

[Aliven]

Mayhap enough for you, but not enough for freaks like me

Well you need money to get more than one costume slot in ESO if i remember right :P

[Koriani]

I often don't agree with your point of view on various topics, but this is actually the best way I have seen these models described. Thanks and if I am allowed I will be borrowing this in future conversations

Regarding the craft bag, I think it's a nice bonus to have for the sub. My main issue with it, even though it's kind of trivial in some respects, is that they removed the ability to mail items between your characters so the only way to share crafting items (and not only) between characters is via the double-space bank and the crafting bag, both from the sub, or via someone you really trust.

I will say that was the biggest shock/adjustment I had to make when I went back to TESO after "One Tam" hit. I think I looked around on forums for several days, thinking I *must* be missing something, when I saw no way to mail "my other characters" anything at all.

So use to so many games letting you float inventory in the mail that way - LOL.

Then I realized "OH! Shared Bank!"

Yea, its not the same. Its not near as "unlimited" as mail-boxing can be - lol. But you CAN share items across characters on the same account, just gotta use the - yes limited - bank storage.

I get why they did it that way. I do. Financially, with how they setup their freemium model - it makes 100% sense. But it does take some adjustments and, when I don't have enough space to pass something over or get those ultra rare items that you can't trade across even your own characters (grr - course you couldn't mail those either but still grr!), its a reminder of how I can't float stuff in the mail.

Well, unless you have a friend or guildie somewhere who is ok with holding crap in the mail for you and visa versa. That would work. heh.

- - - Updated - - -

Well you need money to get more than one costume slot in ESO if i remember right :P

Gives one? Or Three? (with the base) I can't remember. I do remember its the same regardless of whether you sub or not.

And its not the same in TESO.

There's COSTUMEs and there's "Outfit SAVES" (*with or without Dye aplied*)

Costumes you can have as many as you pay for - gather in the game for free - whatever. COSTUMES are complete outfits that are stored, one at a time, in your Collections window. There's no limit to those and the exact same whether you sub or not.

Outfit SAVES - entirely different from transmog and transmog saves.

You can "transmog" (to use the WoW term not the TESO term obviously) anything and everything you already have - as many times as you want - all day long. Eso or ESOPlus (other than dying) is the same. You can trade out those appearance pieces over your regular gear all day long - same with or without a sub.

You just can't SAVE the options without paying for slots. You get one free (or three, again cant' remember, doesn't matter) and then yes, you gotta pay for the rest. That's the same for everyone. *This is the same with or without a sub.*

(What I do is wait for the slots to go on 50% off, happens all the time, and grab them then!)

So while you can trade out "transmog" styles over and over again, you have to spend money to save more than one outfit.
Costumes are not the same.

Yes, subscribers do get "unlimited" dying options for the in-game cash only. But that's the *only* difference between sub and unsubbers in the entire "transmog/costumes/whatever" feature.

And as someone who has kept a sub in the game, as well as played freemium - I have no issue with this. If being able to dye something different over and over again is that important, then pay the sub.

A bunch of little bonuses (dyes, 10% exp. etc) (IMO) aren't gonna bridge the gap to keep people motivated to pay a sub over playing without one. The craft bag bonus is probably the number one top reason people do pay for the sub. And the sub keeps this game from going to SWTOR status (or worse).

*For me the absolutely worst, most punishing, freemium model (For Western MMOs) is EAoware's SWTOR model*
(You don't even get ALL THE BASE EMOTES in their version! Its disgusting.)

- - - Updated - - -

Guild wars 2.
Better in every regard.

(Though someone else did point out you have to pay to dye outfits in GW2...)

I am curious, as I do not play this game - what is the bonus for subbing for GW2 vs. Freemium? What makes people sub instead of playing for free if the model is better in all ways? Goodness of their hearts? Or anything tangible?

[Aliven]

(Though someone else did point out you have to pay to dye outfits in GW2...)

I am curious, as I do not play this game - what is the bonus for subbing for GW2 vs. Freemium? What makes people sub instead of playing for free if the model is better in all ways? Goodness of their hearts? Or anything tangible?

You dont, there is no sub. Also, you can dye whatever you want without any cost (as long as you have dye) no matter if costume or gear. Weapons and back items cant be dyed sadly.

GW2 is buy to play (with base game being f2p - need to buy expansion). There is item shop for cosmetic and qol thingies (nothing as much op as crafting bag).

[Witchblade77]

You dont, there is no sub. Also, you can dye whatever you want without any cost (as long as you have dye) no matter if costume or gear. Weapons and back items cant be dyed sadly.

GW2 is buy to play (with base game being f2p - need to buy expansion). There is item shop for cosmetic and qol thingies (nothing as much op as crafting bag).

umm. UMMM. GW2 has its own version of crafting bag. in fact.. it has multiple limits on every. single. item. and if you farm with any regularity? you are going to run out of space very. quickly. extra crafting mats space? costs gems. want to do more then 2 professions on a single character? pay gems. want some vivid dyes? pay through the nose in gold or.. you guessed it. pay gems. living world episodes ARE free if you are/were playing at the time they were released, but if you missed them? yep. gems. oh and speaking of harvesting. harvesting tools run out. you have to keep replacing them. and the ones that are permanent? cost. gems. and are character specific. GW2 does some thing better, but they do their own share of nickel and diming and some of that nickel and diming - is worse then ESO, IMO.

incidentally, dyeing costumes if you are ESO plus - is free no matter how many times you do it. only dying player designed outfits costs gold.