Disc Mana Issues, etc.

[Meradith]

As a quick follow up. I switched to the ilvl 700 cloak with 130 spirit and the spirit ring and it made a noticeable difference. If you care to look at the logs from yesterday (we only killed Gruul and Oregorger because we were testing out a number of trials) but my performance was improved.

I will definitely work to try to decrease my overheal on shields. I am also working on our raid lead to run less healers for H and F. Unfortunately, when dps takes too much dmg, the answer is often "more heals."

[Talhooo]

Yes, there are many times where you can throw out shields, just like there are many times you can throw out defensive penances. Last I checked, healing doesn't have a set rotation. For example on mythic beastlord the other night, I was doing about 62-64k Hps running mb and shield spamming with less than 800k in penance healing. In our last 2 or 3 attempts I went with solace and defensive penance doing about 4 mil in penance with only a 2 million hit to shields (with a 1 mil increase in DA) and ended our kill at 69k hps.

In many of the examples you gave, ie beast and hanz, those are some examples of when all you would do would be shield spamming, which during those times I do. But what about the other times in the fight where that constant raid aoe isn't going out? That's when penance becomes very viable.


Another time when this whole mb vs solace is taken out of context. They are both very viable. And anyone who talks in absolutes, saying that one is absolutely superior to the other is just wrong. They are both fight specific and can both do equal amounts of throughput depending on playstyle.

I just looked through your log, you gave an extremely bad example ... that lower HPS try is a 5min try and the kill is an 8min try. Ofcourse your HPS is gonna be higher because you can get of a lot more healing in the last 3mins (70-80k hps...). You also only reached about 70% uptime on your solace, and you still defend solace ?

Sometimes I have mad respect for you pospospos, I would have given up a long time ago. You give facts, show math and proof. Then you have these people who just try and argue out of their own experience or bend the truth like this guy with his beastmaster kill. And did that guy just try to argue that those freed up gcds spent on shields are overhealing anyway ? Like really .... ? double facepalm.


btw about hanz & franz, it really is not a bad thing to bring more healers. The fight is normally done with 4, but even topguilds brought 5 in the first week just to be on the safe side. It's not a dps race at all that boss.

[Pearl1717]

First of all, our first three attempts were not logged (I'll see if I still have my combat logs and upload them later). So that is going based on skada and recount from that night.

Second, most people only have about 70% uptime on solace, at least from all the logs I've looked through of top disc players who use it. And I don't defend solace for the mana. I know that MB gives back more mana (although you do spend more mana too, but this doesn't offset the net gain).

Third, he brings up math, not proof. The math does not always apply 100% to actual fights. It leads you in the right direction most of the time, but sometimes seems optimal in theory doesn't end up being that in reality.

Fourth, those freed up gcd's going to shields do result in overhealing in many fights, because shielding more people is not always the answer. And the extra amount of healing you would do is offset by the amount of healing penance + DA will do. Again, for the millionth time, Solace + MB are both viable, fight and playstyle dependent. Many people have put up respectable numbers running both. For the past two weeks I've been giving MB a go to test it out, and I've seen either the same or a loss of hps.

And H&F, I agree, but H&F is on farm for OP so 6 healing it is overkill imo.

[Talhooo]

First of all, our first three attempts were not logged (I'll see if I still have my combat logs and upload them later). So that is going based on skada and recount from that night.

Second, most people only have about 70% uptime on solace, at least from all the logs I've looked through of top disc players who use it.

Third, he brings up math, not proof. The math does not always apply 100% to actual fights. It leads you in the right direction most of the time, but sometimes seems optimal in theory doesn't end up being that in reality.

Fourth, those freed up gcd's going to shields do result in overhealing in many fights. And the extra amount of healing you would do is offset by the amount of healing penance + DA will do. Again, for the millionth time, Solace + MB are both viable, fight and playstyle dependent. Many people have put up respectable numbers running both. For the past two weeks I've been giving MB a go to test it out, and I've seen either the same or a loss of hps.

And H&F, I agree, but H&F is on farm for OP so 6 healing it is overkill imo.

Doesn't matter if you upload those logs, you showed in that 1 log that you could have gotten the exact same HPS, maybe even higher with mindbender. And beastmaster is a boss where disc healing can fluctuate hard. In my raid when pinned down hit mostly melee is out of range, so they're not getting hit by it. I'm sure that happens in any raid. So that boss is just a bad example either way because his dmg is not always predictable.

Your logs are YOUR proof. If you only have 70% uptime, can't you conclude you would have gotten a lot more value out of mindbender ... this shit is so obvious. YES SOLACE IS VIABLE, but only if penance doesn't overheal and when you have an insane good uptime on solace and I don't even see top parsers doing that.

Your argument about freed up gcd's is silly and I won't go into it. I'm sorry, I couldn't forgive myself if I would.

[Pearl1717]

I've been running MB for the past two weeks to see if I get more out of it. And the simple fact is that barring fights like gruul, ore etc where all it is is spamming shields on the raid for the constant damage, I do the same if not more healing running solace.

The mana argument isn't even an argument for me because either way, I have no mana issues running with either of them. When I run MB, my mana usage is essentially identical to solace. Since I have no mana issues there is no need to have a higher uptime than 70%. I usually have a very high uptime no matter what so it would just mean that there would wasted mana at the end of the fight and with a lower hps if I prioritized solace more.

And on beast, the damage is so predictable. People get hit with rend and tear, savage howl, preshield for pindown, tantrum etc and the same time intervals every fight. It is very easy to do well on it everytime.

So why is it that the answer to every situation is more shields. If I throw out as many power word shields, that will solve all my problems and any raid I'm in should never wipe then. Because thats all that matters, gotta get more gcd's because we need to shield more. There are many times when this is true, and many times when this isn't. It seems that you're just focusing on all the times it is true, rather than both.

[Talhooo]

So more mana does not give more healing, or makes you go less spirit ? Did I just read that right ?
But I can see why someone would think that if he also thinks that more shields is overhealing anyway.

And go read pindown tooltip, that shit aint always predictably, maybe it doesn't happen for you and your raid is more stacked, but for me it does atleast. Ranged is 30yards away from boss so pin down doesn't always hit melee .

I still don"t understand why we keep having beastmaster as an example. I give up either way, you win. I'm not a fucking clown. The problem is that your arguments why solace is better are just meh ... I've read some decent discussions on it with decent argumentation, but this is not one of them. Some other poor soul can take it from here.