Does Blizzard actually like RPG?

[Kokolums]

See the funny thing is that blizzard actually love RPG. What they also like is satisfying the most people. Sadly enough, a huge portion of the playerbase love convenience, easy to apprehend and quick content. Once upon a time, Alterac used to last for hours (or even days). Raids needed you to invest so much time around it (acces quests, resist gear, consumables etc) Even crafting needed so much more effort.

But guess what ? SO many people hated those. So they changed their philosophy.

But there's absolutely no reason to. I LOVED old Alterac Valley. Why not just leave Alterac Valley in the game the way it was for people who enjoy that style of play, and then create other battlegrounds for people who just want to play 20 minute games? There was absolutely NO reason to destroy Alterac Valley.

That's what blows my mind. Why does it have to be that ONLY raiding gets content that lasts 20 hours, but everything else needs to be a side game that last 20 minutes?

[DarkspearNeverDie]

He has a feeling.

Yeah, which is usually where I stop reading.

Spoken like a jaded, closed-minded senior citizen. Way to be constructive.


OT: The original Blizzard and its original creators did sure. Classic WoW was an incredible mmo-RPG, with flavor all around you.

They've since sold out, trading in the soul of the game, for greed. Money can and will change people.

This coincides with nearly all of the original developers having moved on through the years.

I truly feel sorry for those having joined the game after Classic that were looking for a mmo-RPG to immerse themselves in. The game is a shell of its former self, more akin to a single player Que-based lobby game.

[Deleted]

The RPG part of WoW has definitely been disappearing from WoW over the years and WoD is, so far, the highpoint of this design decision. I'd recommend FFXIV if you want to feel like you are playing an MMORPG again rather than just an MMO action game.

You lost all credit when you said raids are "fast-action packed", labeling them as "sequences of 10 minute bosses".

But that is exactly what raids are. Sometimes the bosses take more than 10 minutes and you might die multiple against them but there is little variety in between. Adding some jumping puzzles, accidental pitfalls, multiple paths to a location or more frogger-like things can help remove this feeling. I think ToT did well in this regard. Blizzard have also shown they can really vary things up when they want with, for example, the entry into Ulduar.

I keep hoping that we might see a raid with a trash section that involves splitting the raid into multiple groups to tackle different pathways at once. Think Thorim but just in progress through the dungeon.

- - - Updated - - -

MMOs have never, ever, ever been designed to be the "slow, immersive adventure" in the sense of single-player RPGs. They're just not a good platform for presenting that kind of thing through gameplay and mechanics.

But WoW certainly used to. And now it doesn't. You might wish to believe that wasn't the case in the past but it clearly was. Consider the progression with the Shattrath reputation factions, the gradual progression to reach Orgri'la, the attunement questlines that took a while to complete, raid progression that didn't offer an immediate means to enter into the new raid as soon it was released...

All of these factors and many others contributed to the feeling of a slower and more immersive adventure. Obviously that style of MMO isn't for everyone but it is a shame that WoD has swung so far in the opposite direction.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Has Blizzard ever really made a pure RPG? I see a lot list of RTS games. I see a MOBA almost done. I see a FPS on the way. I see an MMO. Way back when a couple platformers.. a racing game.

No pure RPG unless that is what you consider Diablo. But that doesn't feel do real RPG to me. Although I see it possible to consider it one.

[Elim Garak]

Blizzard didn't make Diablo anyway, they "acquisitioned" it.

[melodramocracy]

There seems to be a never-ending flow of posts from people asking it to change into some other game, or offer some wildly different experience, or alter the fundamental design.

I'd say that those requests, for the most part, have yielded the game you have today vs the original concept.

[Deleted]

None of those were deep, immersive "RPG experiences" by design, though. Just standard rep/daily grinds and whatnot. Similar things have and do still exist in the game, just in different forms.

You may have liked those versions better, or just liked the game better back then because it was newer, but that doesn't change the fact that WoW has never been designed to express a strong RPG experience in the sense that single-player games do. MMOs in general simply aren't good platforms for expressing that nature of gameplay. Even FFXIV - as good of a job as it does - is simply not that sort of experience.

Player are MUCH better off seeking that sort of experience elsewhere - generally in single player games. Whereas traditional RPG games have been designed with storytelling, character development, plot resolution, and so on in mind, MMOs have almost always been designed primarily around player retention, statistical progression, and group play.

This pretty much. There would also be issues with pacing (players "getting" the story at different rates) in MMOs.

MMORPGs are not suited for strong RPG experiences. Why would anyone take a genre and focus on its weaknesses? Why not choose a different genre instead? Well, "they" (read: SP-RPG developers) do just that.

This whole thing is like wondering why few build racing cars that carry heavy loads or race-worthy trucks.

[Pull My Finger]

But if the "fast action-packed" philosophy works wonder with FPS, RTS or even card-games it's problematic with MMORPG because they are on the opposite side. MMORPG are supposed to be about living in a coherent world 24h/24, 7d/7. If you want to shoot zombies or races with friends, you play L4Dead or Mario Kart. If you want to live like Aragorn or Han Solo, you'll play Skyrim or Eve Online. Do you see the difference?

I think you're making the mistake to assume that the concept and mindset of the RPG has to fully translate to an MMORPG. That's impossible. The multiplayer aspect alone completely shifts the dynamics. An MMORPG can nerver have the same intensity of narrative immersion as a single-player, offline game. Just as a flight simulator just can't be as action-packed as a Starfox game. And you're probably overlooking the roots of the RPG as a genre of video games, which lie in the tradition of pen and paper roleplaying games. Aesthetic and narrative immersion has always been one of the core elements of roleplay - but not the single defining one. The aspect of assuming a role that is governed by game rules - like a "class" or a "career" - , having ability traits, the trial of strength organized by cards, turns, dicing etc., the acquisition of artefacts, equipment, "buffs", the whole "number crunching" thing - that's a whole different crucial set of elements of an RPG.

Multiplayer online RPGs will always tendentially lean on the latter. Also, you can't ignore zeitgeist, the evolution of media and their perception and use, etc. Things in WoW naturally have the tendency to become more fast-paced and digestible in smaller, independent fragments. That's not just some "Blizzard philosophy" they're showing down your throat for no reason. It's a reflection of our times, media use and expectations.

Sure, you can stand there and complain how everything felt better 10 or 15 years ago. But that's what it was - years ago. By the way, look what happens to ALL the newer games who set out to try and reinstate design philosophies of Vanilla WoW, EQ2 or whatever by force. There's a reason why they aren't taking off, and low production value is just one of them. In contrast, look at games like GW2, where the devs are establishing their own iteration of a modern, contemporary online gameplay.

[ringpriest]

And this is not the problem of WoW. It is the problem of MMO. Game development is far to slow to create new content with the same speed as gamers play. I will love to play quests like 90-100 quests every day but it is just impossible to prepare it for us. And don't say: "This is so big company, they have enough devs for it.". No, they don't. Try to work in game dev company and see how difficult and time consuming it is. And it will be more difficult, because we expect more and more. You say that in Vanilla it was harder, you were leveling for a long time, getting gear was also really long process. You are right but now it wouldn't be so long. We are experienced in WoW, we know how to play that game. Of course I know, I feel that difficulty was decreased but I'm 100% sure that if it was Vanilla right now, we would be complaining as well.

It's not impossible - you just have to create a game with enough depth, dynamism, and player control that the players will generate content themselves - look at EVE Online. Vanilla (and BC) did this, to an extent; not just with massive grinds, but by making the game difficult, time-consuming, and complex.

Travel was slow, and gathering resources was slow and dangerous, but still necessary. Crafting was important and getting good at it was extremely time-consuming. It was impossible for any but the most fanatic players with tons of free time to be self-sufficient. Running through a remote dungeons was an entire evening's adventure all by itself. (And no, not because of how much time it took to put a party together - that was only difficult for people who were awful at the social part of the game - the same people Blizzard now caters to.) It was easy for players to build their own "quests" or "achievements": going to Azshara to fish up enough squid for meals for the whole guild, or going to solo some low-difficulty dungeon, completing a quest or searching for an item they wanted. Even getting flight points or finding instance portals was a little thrill, because it mattered.

But Blizzard (at least in its current incarnation) hates player initiative with a burning passion. "You want to go farm some obscure drop for hours in return for a temporary advantage in PvP? Hell no!" Even leaving aside immersion, everything has been simplified and trivialized - combat, travel, discovery (like there's any left in the game), gearing, crafting, talents, abilities - it's all been whittled down to nothing. By making sure that every player can see and do everything, in as little time as possible, Blizz has rendered the value of doing it utterly worthless. All they have left is a pretty roller-coaster that takes you to a bunch of quick mini-games. And then they bitch, whine and wonder why players consume the content so fast? It's because Blizzard is blasting it down their throats with a fire-hose!

[DarkspearNeverDie]

None of those were deep, immersive "RPG experiences" by design, though.

Classic's questing experience says otherwise. As does all the RPG-elements that have been removed over the years.

If you compare Classic to WoD, Classic was an mmo-RPG, whereas WoD is just an MMO. Huge difference.

[Gadzooks]

This pretty much. There would also be issues with pacing (players "getting" the story at different rates) in MMOs.

MMORPGs are not suited for strong RPG experiences. Why would anyone take a genre and focus on its weaknesses? Why not choose a different genre instead? Well, "they" (read: SP-RPG developers) do just that.

This whole thing is like wondering why few build racing cars that carry heavy loads or race-worthy trucks.

If the tidbits about Titan are to be believed, I think that was the MMO/RPG hybrid people want, and are discussing here, and they fell flat on their faces over it.

Blizzard would have to overhaul their entire business structure to move towards a more RPG centric game - RPG content takes time to develop, you're talking about a game with the complexity and playability of a Fallout3 or Skyrim, on an ongoing basis. They're not structured to do that. They're structured to give players a medium sized portion of content every two years, and then smaller chunks every 3-6 months after. To prop up a game that's more RPG, you'g have to have enough content so the players don't burn through it, and release it on a regular, scheduled basis.

Would I like that? Of course! I'd love it if the game was like a tv show, every week/month we get new stories, and the world is constantly changing and evolving. Like, throw in actual seasons, and have yeti quests that only show up in Hillsbrad in the winter time. Have certain kinds of mobs hibernate, or only come out at night. Have smaller, self enclosed quests in every zone that change constantly. Reuse old content with new quests and dungeons.

Imagine a game with ongoing stories as interesting and immersive and addicting as Game Of Thrones, but in-game. Image a game that was not only a game, but you treated it as a tv show, and were excited for new "episodes". That's the trillion dollar making game...but who can do it? Who can make a game that replaces TV?

Will this ever happen? Nope. Not with the current game, and not with Blizzard. You'd have to plan something like that from the ground up. I think they tried that kind of vast scope with Titan, and failed. Will someone do it? I hope so. But I'm not counting on it.

[DarkspearNeverDie]

That's just plainly not true

Because you say so? That holds no water.

RPG elements are critical, and integral, for creating spatial presence.

Spatial Presence: "as existing when “media contents are perceived as ‘real’ in the sense that media users experience a sensation of being spatially located in the mediated environment.”

All of those RPG elements that we've talked about before and others have stated do a great deal in creating this sensation that you are what you've created.

They've chosen to remove these elements for accessibility's sake, and the game and it's ability to create this spatial presence with its audience has suffered tremendously because of it.

They really need to change WoW's genre, it's not a mmo-RPG anymore.

[melodramocracy]

The original concept hasn't changed, though. The expression of the design, the polish, the QoL, the refinements and so on haven't actually changed the design concepts of the game.

I'd agree with that, certainly.

[Skorpionss]

Blizzard haven't done a good RPG in years, probably not enough profit for the work it requires.

I dunno man, Skyrim sold like crazy, Dragon age always sold pretty well even though it is pretty mixed in opinions, The witcher sold like hot cakes too, and the 3rd will probably sell even better than the first 2...

Blizzard has 3 franchises that are very well known and loved... a proper RPG set in any of these 3 franchises would sell. A lot. A freakin lot... Heck it may even set a new record...

If it has a very solid single player with engaging story and characters + a fun multiplayer(like gta 5 but you know, made to fit) it would probably be the best on the market for years...

[SodiumChloride]

I have to agree with the OP, WoW rise to its peak in Wrath on the back of unfulfilled promises.

Promise of a magical world with limitless possibilities remained unrealised and instead all players got was raids, raids, and more raids - despite the fact that raiding was never that popular to begin with.

By Cata players gave up, tired of it all, and figured that they are never going to deliver, that they are just going to release the same old, same old, with a new coat of paint.

On the bright side, they did try something new this expansion, Garrisons. Finally a place to call your own although you can't control the decor.

The funny thing is WoW did have the trappings of an RPG during vanilla. You had the "elemental wheel", you had key quests to unlock stuff, you had to gear correctly vs particular mobs (i.e. Resist gear) ... etc.

It was all stripped away. Why? You guessed it. Raiding. It was inconvenient for raiding.

They could have kept those systems for use in the open world. But nope, raiding is all that matters. If it doesn't "serve" raiding then it isn't important and is removed.

[Pull My Finger]

But WoW certainly used to. And now it doesn't. You might wish to believe that wasn't the case in the past but it clearly was. Consider the progression with the Shattrath reputation factions, the gradual progression to reach Orgri'la, the attunement questlines that took a while to complete, raid progression that didn't offer an immediate means to enter into the new raid as soon it was released...

All of these factors and many others contributed to the feeling of a slower and more immersive adventure. Obviously that style of MMO isn't for everyone but it is a shame that WoD has swung so far in the opposite direction.

Not true. You're equating "immersion" with "things that take a very long time because of tedious mechanics and logistics". Nothing about Orgri'la, raid attunements or the highly contradictory example of reputation factions was more "immersive" than the stuff in the game today. What's so immersive about filling up a reputation bar by doing the same stuff every day, anyway. It was most probably you that felt more immersed in these kinds of activities because your perception of it was different at the time. You're so much more experienced with the mechanics and the whole concept of it than you were in 2007. Your attitude towards that kind of content just can't be the same. You simply already know the drill. It's just like entering a new raid. In Vanilla, you were possibly more like, Christ, look at the size of that thing. Now you're going: OK, what does this guy do? Heroism off CD yet?

[DarkspearNeverDie]

All of that is just poorly defined attachment to minutiae of certain gameplay mechanics. None of that is integral to an actual RPG game or experience. Not in any way, shape or form.

As for the genre label, "RPG" as a genre has been generally accepted as encompassing a very wide array of gameplay types. Specifically, almost any system that uses statistical representations of a characters power has become accepted as warranting an "RPG" or at least "containing RPG elements" label, for better or worse. So no, there's no reason to change the genre name. Most people who care about such things are already aware that "MMORPG" is not expected to provide the same kind of RPG experience that other entries in the genre do.

If you can't accept that spatial presence is absolutely vital and critical to a mmo-RPG then denial has made its way into this discussion and there's no point in continuing.

There's no consistent and accepted singular definition for the term mmo-RPG, so there's absolutely no harm done in saying that WoW should change it's genre name. It has only a small fraction left of RPG elements that would even allow it to be considered one anyway.

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The funny thing is WoW did have the trappings of an RPG during vanilla. You had the "elemental wheel", you had key quests to unlock stuff, you had to gear correctly vs particular mobs (i.e. Resist gear) ... etc.

It sure did. Accessibility, more-so than just raiding, was WoW's RPG down-fall though.

[Deleted]

Didn't they actually try some single-player "proper RPG" Warcraft games? I seem to recall that, albeit vaguely.

In any case, I guess they must not have been very good if I can't remember them clearly. :O

Warcraft Adventures? That was scrapped because it didn't meet their quality standards (if I recall correctly). They just released its story in a book ("Warcraft: Lord of the Clans") instead.

[Jester Joe]

They really need to change WoW's genre, it's not a mmo-RPG anymore.

It kinda is still. But okay.

[Skorpionss]

Didn't they actually try some single-player "proper RPG" Warcraft games? I seem to recall that, albeit vaguely.

In any case, I guess they must not have been very good if I can't remember them clearly. :O

Nah it was a Point and Click adventure game About Thrall I think and it was cancelled long ago