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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I've actually been working on a compilation thread for all the races. I'd be happy to include your comprehensive list of troll issues.
    <3

    I can't begin to describe how grateful we would be if you included our concerns...

    Edit: Actually, for simplicity's sake, especially since the thread you're making is already such an endeavour, nevermind about carrying over anything from my EU thread. Though I would be very grateful if you could include the screenshots and points I've brought up in my own posts on the first page of the thread.

    Though if this thread you're making is going to include links to others then...: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1288945?page=1
    Last edited by Oggudrai; 2015-04-24 at 11:45 PM.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I've actually been working on a compilation thread for all the races. I'd be happy to include your comprehensive list of troll issues.
    <3

    Oh Snuzzle you're my hero! It means a lot to me and Ogg, I'll make a small present for you, and your efforts ^^

  3. #123
    Legendary! snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    <3

    Oh Snuzzle you're my hero! It means a lot to me and Ogg, I'll make a small present for you, and your efforts ^^
    Oh, don't. You're helping me by compiling all this information.

    It's tough though. There are a lot of threads about female night elves, blood elves of both genders, and your list of troll issues. I know well how the tauren are doing. I'm having tough times finding anything on how the other races are faring, in terms of faithfulness to the old models and any long-standing bugs. Makki's thread is a good resource, but it's not being heavily posted in anymore so I don't know which issues are solved and which still remain, or if there are any new issues introduced in 6.2.

    Sig by Isilrien

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryptas View Post
    Yes, this is exactly what I meant. Thanks for testing it.
    It seems unlikely that this is going to be fixed soon. Blizz might consider it too unimportant to fix, which is sad but understandable.
    But one can still hope.
    It was nothing, but you're very welcome. Thank you for bringing it to our awareness!

    I don't think it should be considered too unimportant, it's now part of the OP. So here's hoping as well!

  5. #125
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Glad to hear about the changes on the Troll female's walking. It would surely feel better using my lovable Priestess

    About Troll males, since I have the beauty of six of them, I developed mixed feelings. The facial expressions have vastly improved from the old ones, yet, no matter how much care I put on the details, the facial expression now to jerk oddly in many situations. Those occuring while fishing and swimming caught my attention in particular.

    The walking, eh. I don't know. There's something I like about the current walking, it looks less stiff and more natural compared to the past (I made direct comparisons) and is appreciable to an extent; however, there's also something I don't really like, mainly the way shoulders and arms move with the rest of the body. It even feels a bit "girlie" to an extent. Not a tragic deal in my book (since game models are not my top concern) but is still pretty striking and a bit annoying.

    This said, my honest regards for your incredible efforts (totally loved the hairstyle ideas); if any noticeable improvement will be made on the Troll model, we'll have little doubts in decide who we would have to thank for that
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Glad to hear about the changes on the Troll female's walking. It would surely feel better using my lovable Priestess

    About Troll males, since I have the beauty of six of them, I developed mixed feelings. The facial expressions have vastly improved from the old ones, yet, no matter how much care I put on the details, the facial expression now to jerk oddly in many situations. Those occuring while fishing and swimming caught my attention in particular.

    The walking, eh. I don't know. There's something I like about the current walking, it looks less stiff and more natural compared to the past (I made direct comparisons) and is appreciable to an extent; however, there's also something I don't really like, mainly the way shoulders and arms move with the rest of the body. It even feels a bit "girlie" to an extent. Not a tragic deal in my book (since game models are not my top concern) but is still pretty striking and a bit annoying.

    This said, my honest regards for your incredible efforts (totally loved the hairstyle ideas);

    Hehe and which hairstyles you liked the most?

    Oh and I have more specific question, with walking you really meant walking animation or the runing, becuase you named troll female run animation "walking". So I am confused a bit. I wouldn't call any of troll animations girly at all. But I kinda agree that he makes sometimes weird faces, the one with swimming, and kneeling is kind of weird. I'd imagine that once he kneels he would have focused expression.

    Oh and Zulkhan... I see what you did there with your sig ;D

    if any noticeable improvement will be made on the Troll model, we'll have little doubts in decide who we would have to thank for that
    Dawhh you little flirt, you...
    *troll female giggle animation*
    Last edited by Ramz; 2015-04-25 at 02:43 PM.

  7. #127
    Deleted
    I played a bit yesterday, and I was reminded of how weird the new male troll walking animation is. The arms sway waaayy too much to the sides and they feel strangely stiff ? I loved the old animation but now... eh.

    The bouncy run doesn't bother me though.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Seahnjin View Post
    I played a bit yesterday, and I was reminded of how weird the new male troll walking animation is. The arms sway waaayy too much to the sides and they feel strangely stiff ? I loved the old animation but now... eh.
    I agree, and it's not just the swinging of their arms that bother me... With certain hairstyles (bald, the topknots etc) it also looks like they have this somewhat slight, odd bird-like posture/motion with their head when they walk. But that might just be me nitpicking. Going to try and make some gifs...

    I would also love if they closed their damn mouth when walking. The tusks aren't that heavy! They're not even connected to the lower jaw anymore!

    I can't really stress my desire for this enough!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Demonstrating how much more he bobs his head now, creating that odd "bird-walk" head-motion that I personally feel he has (incidentally -also- shows how painfully flat the model's back is compared to the old):



    A more overall comparison showing that he carries his head higher, how it's bobbing more, and the difference in shoulder and arm motion:



    I apologize for the green pixelation and that they're out of sync... Haven't done this a lot!

    At any rate, I find these changes unnecessary and I personally thinks it looks worse than the old. Even if others disagree with me on the latter it's also just different for the sake of being different, which is not what we were promised.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    About Troll males, since I have the beauty of six of them, I developed mixed feelings. The facial expressions have vastly improved from the old ones, yet, no matter how much care I put on the details, the facial expression now to jerk oddly in many situations. Those occuring while fishing and swimming caught my attention in particular.

    This said, my honest regards for your incredible efforts (totally loved the hairstyle ideas); if any noticeable improvement will be made on the Troll model, we'll have little doubts in decide who we would have to thank for that
    About the kneeling, the face they make then is a matter of subjectivity, but I'm not quite fond of it myself either honestly.

    However, about the fishing, I did notice this:



    There's also a similar issue with the stealth running animation:



    And I agree, Ramz has done a fantastic job catalouging and forwarding her feedback as well as that of others.
    Last edited by Oggudrai; 2015-04-25 at 02:41 PM.

  9. #129
    Lol why is he closing his eyes doing walking in stealth? He will bump onto something eventually :P

    Great Gifs Oggy, I'm pretty sure they will come in handy! I'll edit my OP again.

  10. #130
    Thanks! If this helps make the issues clearer for the devs then I'm all too happy to help.

  11. #131
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    Hehe and which hairstyles you liked the most?
    They look all great, but if you want me to make a "prefered list" here we go:

    Troll female:

    -Tied-on-top
    -Overstyled (sexy as hell!)
    -With band
    -Lushful
    -Ornamented (this is wonderful aswell)

    Troll male:

    -High pony (we needed something like this)
    -Wild tail (awesome)
    -Combobreaker (awesome*2)
    -Trollverine FTW
    -Tied behind

    These are very good concepts and actually needed, Troll males in particular need some new cool styles, as things as are now the hairstyles are "ok" but only a couple of them look really great (in my opinion, at least) especially the Vol'jin-like crest seems to reign almost unrivaled over the others, even more with the fresh and badass look it got along with the new model.

    Oh and I have more specific question, with walking you really meant walking animation or the runing, becuase you named troll female run animation "walking". So I am confused a bit.
    And rightfully so, my fault darling! I use the actual walking animation so rarely that I mistakenly put under the said name the running animation. So yeah, I meant the latter in both cases. I used the walking animation in very few cases with Troll males and seemed to me it remained surprisingly coherent with the way it was before. The only flaw is the way the head moves, as Oggudrai shown, but it could also be a consequence of the greater muscular build, which was excessively thin before (Jungle Trolls are meant to be more slim than Forest/Ice Trolls but not that thin) and the neck assuming a different posture and shape, since that utter horizontal look on it was a bit excessive and odd. Still, I cannot deny the "bird-bobbing" doesn't look great.

    About the females, I only have one and I really can't say for sure, I never "walked" much with her.

    I wouldn't call any of troll animations girly at all
    Don't get me wrong, is a sort of stretch, but still had the feeling that the running was a bit misplaced. The "girly" sensation is entirely tied to the way the male move his arms along with the body, it really strikes me that way, in a vague way mind you (I don't see the Troll male as actually girly) but for me those arms remain excessively sticked to the body while running. That's a considerable difference compared to the old model, that was a bit stiff sure, but the arms moved in a far better way, distanced from the body enough to look more "manly" and imposing. I feel the new model have lost a bit of that.

    But I kinda agree that he makes sometimes weird faces, the one with swimming, and kneeling is kind of weird. I'd imagine that once he kneels he would have focused expression
    Yeah, excatly. And surely not only Troll models have this issue. The new models are great but their facial expressions really seem to be of someone on drugs than actual expressions of people focused in doing what the animation suggest them to do.

    Oh and Zulkhan... I see what you did there with your sig ;D
    My warrior is "Scourge of the Kaldorei" far before WoD came out, I spent plenty of my levelling back in Classic in brutally ambush unsuspecting elves all around Ashenvale (RP-PvP server for the win) and the Cataclysm revamp just renewed the fun

    Dawhh you little flirt, you...
    *troll female giggle animation*
    I hope you're well rested. You're going to need your "strength".

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggudrai View Post
    There's also a similar issue with the stealth running animation:


    I have a Rogue but is not Troll, and my Troll Druid go stealth in Cat form so I wasn't absolutely aware of this. Yeah, is definetely odd that someone roaming around in stealth does so with closed eyes. I mean, your focus on the surroundings should be twice of when you just casually walk around lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Nerd View Post
    Why the erect hairstyle should get fixed.
    Ok I have to admit it, this made my freaking fucking day.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2015-04-25 at 05:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    And rightfully so, my fault darling! I use the actual walking animation so rarely that I mistakenly put under the said name the running animation. So yeah, I meant the latter in both cases. I used the walking animation in very few cases with Troll males and seemed to me it remained surprisingly coherent with the way it was before. The only flaw is the way the head moves, as Oggudrai shown, but it could also be a consequence of the greater muscular build, which was excessively thin before (Jungle Trolls are meant to be more slim than Forest/Ice Trolls but not that thin) and the neck assuming a different posture and shape, since that utter horizontal look on it was a bit excessive and odd. Still, I cannot deny the "bird-bobbing" doesn't look great.
    Actually, you'll see from screenshot the comparisons with the old that I posted on the first page: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33352471 that they actually don't have a greater muscular build... Rather the opposite; they have -less- bulk now. You don't have to read the whole thing, you can just scroll down to the limb section, just above it is a bit more about their back issues.

    The only parts of the model that was slightly increased in bulk was the biceps and the chest, everything else was actually either smaller, or the same as before.

    What's smaller: The shoulders, their latissimus dorsi muscles (their back), their triceps (back of their arms feel flatter now to me). Essentially most of the muscles that actually provide the most upper body strength ironically. Their thighs are also less muscular now

    What's the same: forearms, shins and their behind.

    That's a considerable difference compared to the old model, that was a bit stiff sure, but the arms moved in a far better way, distanced from the body enough to look more "manly" and imposing. I feel the new model have lost a bit of that.
    I think I kind of get what you mean, what might give that impression more is that their torso sways just a but more side to side now, before the torso was a lot more stable and their shoulders a bit more "set" in place... Add to that the fact that the new model's shoulders are reduced by a third and I can see why you'd feel your troll is a tad bit emasculated.

    But indeed, perhaps they should carry their heads higher... I just dislike the excessive bobbing and that mouth movement.
    Last edited by Oggudrai; 2015-04-25 at 05:36 PM.

  13. #133
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oggudrai View Post
    Actually, you'll see from screenshot the comparisons with the old that I posted on the first page: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33352471 that they actually don't have a greater muscular build... Rather the opposite; they have -less- bulk now. You don't have to read the whole thing, you can just scroll down to the limb section, just above it is a bit more about their back issues.

    The only parts of the model that was slightly increased in bulk was the biceps and the chest, everything else was actually either smaller, or the same as before.

    What's smaller: The shoulders, their latissimus dorsi muscles (their back), their triceps (back of their arms feel flatter now to me). Essentially most of the muscles that actually provide the most upper body strength ironically. Their thighs are also less muscular now

    What's the same: forearms, shins and their behind
    The higher amount of pixels and level of details in the muscles of the new model surely give a general (even if deceitful) impression of greater muscular build. That's also why the old one probably looked more thin than it was supposed to be, since those muscles were there but technically weren't, due to strong lack of details.

    Surely, chest and abdomen have got muscular mass; arms seem to be more muscular around biceps (as you observed) and seem just more detailed on the rest. I don't see a striking difference between old and new triceps honestly. And yeah, I never actually noticed how the back lost so much mass, gear and looking always the back of the character (since is strongly noticeable only if looked laterally) deceived me very well.

    I never looked at legs in particular and surely didn't notice differences between old and new thigs, but now that you said that I'll take a look.

    Shoulders is a curious matter. The old ones obviously have lower pixels and details but indeed look bigger or, at least, "wider". But in a way, they look more natural now and simply seems that the muscular mass was merely better distributed, since there seem to be a bit more of it on parts that respectively connect to the biceps and the back. Still though, the final result is that with this "distribution" the shoulder itself look definetely thiner.

    I think I kind of get what you mean, what might give that impression more is that their torso sways just a but more side to side now, before the torso was a lot more stable and their shoulders a bit more "set" in place... Add to that the fact that the new model's shoulders are reduced by a third and I can see why you'd feel your troll is a tad bit emasculated
    It's a minor concern indeed, but one I can't properly "brush away" aswell. And I find it really strange, because the new model seem to have actual teres muscles that didn't seem to be there at all, and excatly those muscles are those who distance arms from the torso. We should definetely add a visual comparison betweeb old and new Troll male running animation because the difference is striking, yet pretty bizzare. I should see to do some solid comparison myself too.

    But indeed, perhaps they should carry their heads higher... I just dislike the excessive bobbing and that mouth movement
    To solve the bobbing the neck's shape should be different, simply oblique from torso to head instead of assuming that C-reverse position. The old model had an hilariously straight and horinzontal position which looked even more bizzare with lower definition, but this new incarnation is too similar to the one of a particulary big bird, which is why they, consequently, bob their head like one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    The higher amount of pixels and level of details in the muscles of the new model surely give a general (even if deceitful) impression of greater muscular build. That's also why the old one probably looked more thin than it was supposed to be, since those muscles were there but technically weren't, due to strong lack of details.

    Surely, chest and abdomen have got muscular mass; arms seem to be more muscular around biceps (as you observed) and seem just more detailed on the rest. I don't see a striking difference between old and new triceps honestly. And yeah, I never actually noticed how the back lost so much mass, gear and looking always the back of the character (since is strongly noticeable only if looked laterally) deceived me very well.
    Regarding the triceps, there's not a striking difference, no, but that's also part of the problem, it looks like it has the same amount of polygons as the old, whereas the biceps by comparison feel like they have volume... The triceps on the new, in a lot of angles to my eyes, looks flat as a board.

    I'm glad I could make you conscious of that back, it's actually surprised me, outright scared me a little that I've been the only one I've seen who's noticed it without me first pointing it out to them. Even in full gear I can still see it and it bugs the HELL out of me... And yet with so many people just seeming to not notice it I've been seriously worried that Blizzard would never address it, because no one talked about it D:

    However, I feel Chris Robinson knows about this issue... He once stated that he wanted to put his best foot forward with the artcrafts, and the troll male in their artcraft was the only model in which we never got to see the back of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    I never looked at legs in particular and surely didn't notice differences between old and new thigs, but now that you said that I'll take a look.

    Shoulders is a curious matter. The old ones obviously have lower pixels and details but indeed look bigger or, at least, "wider". But in a way, they look more natural now and simply seems that the muscular mass was merely better distributed, since there seem to be a bit more of it on parts that respectively connect to the biceps and the back. Still though, the final result is that with this "distribution" the shoulder itself look definetely thiner.
    With the legs I did my best to show the difference in the screenshot, I feel the lack of volume is pretty evident once you compare them side by side...

    I personally liked the shoulders as they were, I feel they're just one of many things that geometrically are different without needing to be different, but to each their own. I could live with the shoulder being smaller, I'd much rather see their backs restored and their legs to look as powerful as they once did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    To solve the bobbing the neck's shape should be different, simply oblique from torso to head instead of assuming that C-reverse position. The old model had an hilariously straight and horinzontal position which looked even more bizzare with lower definition, but this new incarnation is too similar to the one of a particulary big bird, which is why they, consequently, bob their head like one.
    I didn't mind the old angle, particularly compared to the new one, but I could easily live with what you suggest.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    And rightfully so, my fault darling! I use the actual walking animation so rarely that I mistakenly put under the said name the running animation. So yeah, I meant the latter in both cases. I used the walking animation in very few cases with Troll males and seemed to me it remained surprisingly coherent with the way it was before. The only flaw is the way the head moves, as Oggudrai shown, but it could also be a consequence of the greater muscular build, which was excessively thin before (Jungle Trolls are meant to be more slim than Forest/Ice Trolls but not that thin) and the neck assuming a different posture and shape, since that utter horizontal look on it was a bit excessive and odd. Still, I cannot deny the "bird-bobbing" doesn't look great.
    Yeah in certain angles they do look too thin, and Jungle trolls are still meant to be strong and imposing. I really love troll male build but I am among those people who want on them a little more body mass and visible muscles, I always imagined for them to be great in acrobatics, that they're swift and agile.




    Don't get me wrong, is a sort of stretch, but still had the feeling that the running was a bit misplaced. The "girly" sensation is entirely tied to the way the male move his arms along with the body, it really strikes me that way, in a vague way mind you (I don't see the Troll male as actually girly) but for me those arms remain excessively sticked to the body while running. That's a considerable difference compared to the old model, that was a bit stiff sure, but the arms moved in a far better way, distanced from the body enough to look more "manly" and imposing. I feel the new model have lost a bit of that.
    I don't know I found previous way he moved his arms to be unnatural, I tried to mimic his way of running and it didn't felt right. The new one I find much more realistic specially when he has faster movements, proper weight, so they finally show this wild troll nature. Besides it's a very good transition from this run to sprint animation, which if my favourite spring animation in game.


    Yeah, excatly. And surely not only Troll models have this issue. The new models are great but their facial expressions really seem to be of someone on drugs than actual expressions of people focused in doing what the animation suggest them to do.
    In some cases they don't fit, but when it comes to emotes they're spot on imo. I specially adore question animation. He is just so adorable and he looks like big kitten.



    My warrior is "Scourge of the Kaldorei" far before WoD came out, I spent plenty of my levelling back in Classic in brutally ambush unsuspecting elves all around Ashenvale (RP-PvP server for the win) and the Cataclysm revamp just renewed the fun
    Ooooh I like him xD But I meant something else

    I hope you're well rested. You're going to need your "strength".
    *grins* Oh I am.


    I have a Rogue but is not Troll, and my Troll Druid go stealth in Cat form so I wasn't absolutely aware of this. Yeah, is definetely odd that someone roaming around in stealth does so with closed eyes. I mean, your focus on the surroundings should be twice of when you just casually walk around lol
    I think this is the sign of perfection! He is so pro that he don't have to look where he goes! xD

    Ok I have to admit it, this made my freaking fucking day.
    Same
    Last edited by Ramz; 2015-04-25 at 07:02 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    Yeah in certain angles they do look too thin, and Jungle trolls are still meant to be strong and imposing. I really love troll male build but I am among those people who want on them a little more body mass and visible muscles, I always imagined for them to be great in acrobatics, that they're swift and agile.
    This... I don't even feel they'd need to be bulked up a lot either, as Seahnjin pointed out, Vol'jin's extent of bulk might be too much of a deviation, but getting the same toned contours to match the more muscular textures wouldn't go astray.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    *grins* Oh I am.
    If this carries on much further you two are going to need to find a distant treetop/jungle ruin :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    I think this is the sign of perfection! He is so pro that he don't have to look where he goes! xD
    Well, the live version of Zan is already used to wearing an eyepatch and operating with just one eye... It wouldn't be too farfetched xP but it does look too silly.

    Fun-fact; Shadows of the Horde tells us that Trolls have such a good sense of smell that not only can they recognize someone by their race, they can recognize them down to their individual scent.

    Maybe he's just sniffing his way along, lol.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Oggudrai View Post
    This... I don't even feel they'd need to be bulked up a lot either, as Seahnjin pointed out, Vol'jin's extent of bulk might be too much of a deviation, but getting the same toned contours to match the more muscular textures wouldn't go astray.
    Ye, No reasonable troll player would want to drasticaly change thier belowed model. We all just want for trolls to look convincing as fighters.

    If this carries on much further you two are going to need to find a distant treetop/jungle ruin :P
    Dawh, it cannot be helped if the nature speaks out of ya. But in situations like that you're meant to mention dark cave :P Treetop isn't practical, you might fell off.



    Well, the live version of Zan is already used to wearing an eyepatch and operating with just one eye... It wouldn't be too farfetched xP but it does look too silly.

    Fun-fact; Shadows of the Horde tells us that Trolls have such a good sense of smell that not only can they recognize someone by their race, they can recognize them down to their individual scent.

    Maybe he's just sniffing his way along, lol.
    Which isn't surprising at all. I always imagined for them to have fantastic sense of smell, so it's not like thier long noses are only meant to be used to rub against each others to show affection like Eskimo :P
    If I remember correctly one troll also mentioned that belves reeks of Fel.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh Oggy, those screenshots you provided also shown another issue- the disjointed feet from robe, aka Pacman syndrome, troll females also have the same issue.
    Last edited by Ramz; 2015-04-25 at 09:02 PM.

  18. #138
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Oggudrai View Post
    I feel like I miss out on so much ridiculous stuff by having my rogue constantly wear goggles. To think I've never known the beauty of a troll zooming around in stealth with Burst of Speed, with his eyes shut... Such skill ! Troll master race.

    I don't mind the male trolls being "skinny" (let's just call it Warcraft-skinny), but I'm not against better muscle definition. Like, maybe when they update the model's texture quality... one day... perhaps.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Seahnjin View Post
    I feel like I miss out on so much ridiculous stuff by having my rogue constantly wear goggles. To think I've never known the beauty of a troll zooming around in stealth with Burst of Speed, with his eyes shut... Such skill ! Troll master race.
    Indeed! This is true mastery and perfection. You know who else is showing true perfection? Our new Warchief :



    Troll master race indeed :P

  20. #140
    Legendary! snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    Lol why is he closing his eyes doing walking in stealth? He will bump onto something eventually :P
    "If I can't see you, you can't see me!"

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