Troll models in 6.2.

[Ramz]

I keep editing this post and up til now most of the points still stands, as models itself while did received tweaks there and there still contains quite some issues.

To make it easy to navigate here is what this post contains :

1.Recent news

2.Troll male feedback
-2.1. hairstyles
-2.2. animations
-2.3. model itself

3.Troll female feedback

4. Suggestions
-4.1. troll hairstyles
-4.2. additional customisation features
-4.3. suggestions for animations



5.(Old and outdated). Lore - alas not only with models we're getting mishandled: https://justpaste.it/ubfp
6. Progress checklist.


1. RECENT NEWS

Devs encouraged to give feedback to them in regards of customization, so I'd be intereted to share collaboation with various artists and people that have ideas not just for trolls.

I updated the post with my suggestions in suggestions section.


Firstly I'll adress thing that both male and female suffers- when they're wearing robes thier feets are disjoined from them once they run, like Pacman, I know that draenei had the same issue.


More on Post #128 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33450153




2. TROLL MALE

2.1. TROLL MALE HAIRSTYLES


- the hairstyle with many braids on it's back is lacking the hair on sides of the face. His briads also should be re-visited becuase they feel rather flat while in old model the hairstyle was giving the impression of being huge. This has been done to human females hairstyles, so I believe trolls deserve it too.



The hairstyles with long braids on back are not animating properly during combat, the angle that braids bends to are unnatural:




2.2.TROLL MALE ANIMATIONS:

- During running animation, troll makes super angry face it would be great if it would be something stern instead.

- A lot of players want old walking/ back walking animation.He sways way too much his arms, previous walk animation was perfect, and was giving "prowling predator" vibe. It would be also great if he would close his mouth aswell. Post #128 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33450153

- during stealth run animation and fishing he closes his eyes.


-during eating/drinking animation either his hand is too low or his head to high:


- please tone down the expressions during kneeling and swimming animations.


- For monk class: fists of fury bug, and troll male is lacking landing animtion after performing Sperpent spine kick. Post #159 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33509903

- Release spell animations. When casting dierect spell troll male bends down even more, it looks painful please position his torso slightly higher and make his arms stright as it used to be in old animation.

Agif to show how it looks in motion old vs new:



That squat looks very uncomfortable, and it's bugging me since the very begining.

And this is how it looks on NPC, as you see he really bends in uncomfortabe way:



- Troll male tusks move during animations. Tusks are meant to be immovable becuase they're attached to the skull, then how come we see them moving like that? :




-jumping is super stiff on troll male, as if it wasn't completed even.



- Troll male is swaying too much during idle, previous idle animation was perfect, now he is moving as if he was drunk or something. It also looks bad when he sleeps, he moves back and forth.




- clipping on idle stance, his left hand is disappearing in robe. When he sits there is also clipping issue.

http://oi60.tinypic.com/sz911w.jpg

- clipping while in combat stance 2H, on old model it was a non-issue becuase the shoulder placement during animation was correct, now the shoulders are clipping through head:




- during shoting animation his arrow is positioned in wrong direction. Fixed! (kinda)[Legion PTR] (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post40974703)


2.3. TEXTURE AND MODEL ALONE:

- Troll males lost unique eye colours, I thought it was bug in beta, and will be adressed, but it wasn't. Eye colours were : red, yellow, orange. Now it's black mostly. It was reversed to black back in WoD beta for no reason. Only NPCs managed to keep thier unique eye colours up to patch 6.1. More on Post #53 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33395983

Here is screen of how eyes looked previously:



- Warpaint in some cases (specially green combo) isn't faithful to original: http://oi60.tinypic.com/ndsnq1.jpg

- Ears also appears to be blurred and not HD:




- more detail to feet, troll females have much more detailed looking feet. And thier skin Texture looks more HD thanks to nice shading.




- Troll female model has much more HD texture than male, she also has much more healther colours and more definition put into her skin. Troll male looks pale in comparision, his colours look dull, as if he was sick.


- Even unplayable NPC got better model and texture resolution! :



- there is also something wrong with geometry, troll male appears to be hunching even more than before, his shoulders along with arms are also moved more forward, which gives rather unpleasant feel. I'm not asking for stright back, I like the fact that troll males are hunching, but it needs to be adjusted, lessen the hunch slightly. position torso a bit higher and work on his shoulder/ arm placement.




- Troll males got no rear! Therey're completely flat in there, no curvatures, nothing!




- There is also something weird with thier arms, from one side they're thick, from another they look skinny :



Here is suggestion how to improve it :



And also quote from Zankhaz from EU forum thread :

I will use an example of the one flaw which worries me the most since I have only seen myself try to bring it to light:





This flatnes of their back is neither anatomically correct, aesthetically pleasing or faithful to the original model, as can be seen in the latter screenshot comparison (incidentally it also demonstrates how they were animated to hunch even more forward than before, which bothers me somewhat as well, making them appear shorter)

MORE OF HIS FEEDBACK: (POST #10 ) http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33352471
And here is more http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612042307

3. TROLL FEMALES:

- there is need to increase the size of weapons on troll females.

- please tone down expression she makes during release direct spell, her facial expression is very exaggerated, erfect face expression would be like in monk spell animations.

- Faces are changing it's shape on DK selection screen. (Post #15)

- [Apparently it only affects crossbows, and it's on every race] Weapon is changing the size whearas it's unseather or not:



(this is how it looked :http://oi60.tinypic.com/2pqs49j.jpg)

- During melee animations the hilt is clipping through the fingers, or the weapon is flating away from troll women's hands:



- Troll female also doesn't close ther fists when she is holding an item, I know it's nitpicking but I also know that both increasing the weaponsize and and moving fingertips :



- Please fix PePe positioning on the head:



- it would be great if Jungle flower hairstyle would be re-visited to resomble original:




Quote from EU FORUM:

Most of the animations seem to be the character doing a slow pivot with a really weird swing accompanying it. A lot of the attacks are exactly the same, although the pivot sometimes speeds up. I really like how female Trolls look, so I decided to level a Troll Death Knight. As I was leveling and getting new skills I kept hoping that I would get some new animation on some of my attacks but no such luck. Really disappointing how boring the female Troll animations really are. Really feels like Blizzard could have done a lot more with this, seeing as Trolls are lore-heavy characters with a pretty well-defined personality.

As for the weapon size, two-handers in particular here, compared to the size of weapons when using an Orc for example, the Troll two-handers look like they are one-handers relative to character size. I really think Blizzard has done a nice job on weapon sizes for other races, but for female Trolls the two-handers are just too small in my opinion.

I also want to emphasise that I really appreciate the effort that was taken for new models, but like most of the players I want for them to be perfect.

=================
4. SUGGESTIONS FOR FUTURE CUSTOMISATION :

4.1. HAIRSTYLES :

- new troll female hairstyles, my own design -



- And for troll male!






4.2. CUSTOMISATION OPTIONS:


- Facial Hair :





EYE CUSTOMIZATION






4.3.SUGGESTIONS FOR ANIMATIONS:

New models gave a great oportiunity to add some extra additional animations. Trolls are meant to be extremely agile and it's barely shown in their animations, so here are some references and propositions for our troll buddies:

For standing up animation after being sumbled:
https://youtu.be/FcJSHQMx27w?t=293

video showing troll male rogue animations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXod2-NW7dM

there could be additional jumping animation to add racial flavour, some good reference:
https://youtu.be/a7Mz4h3G0Pg?t=58


TROLL DRUID GUARDIAN SUGGESTION :[/B]



That would've been fun! ;D


6. Progress checklist.


- in 6.2. Troll female had her run animation tweaked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Law0-eoW8
old one for comparision:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoB4...=youtu.be&t=66

As you can see new one is more similar in motion to vanilla one without the wobbling from side to side. That is a huge improvement. The run doesn't feel so stiff anymore. I'd like for it to have some more weight, but I would take it as it is, considering blizz has a tendency to go extreme at times, and destroy something that had potential.

- [s]- the long braid hairstyle was finally animated http://oi57.tinypic.com/64mmh4.jpg


- It only affects NPCs :When troll female sits on chair there is something wrong with animation loop that makes her hand twitch in disturbing way, she is not sitting calmly as she is supposed to, but her hand moves in sharp manner once the animation loop is over. FIXED! but here is gif to show how it looked like : http://oi57.tinypic.com/2jez0b9.jpg


- Shooting animation is wrong, the arrow is positioned away from bow Fixed! [Legion PTR] ( http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post40974703)

- Another thing on troll female is that she doesn't have kneeling animation, her body literraly freezes. She doesn't blink and she doesn't breath, while troll male makes funny face yet he is clearly breathing and therefore he has kneeling animation too. it's fixed,, she is breathing but she doesn't blink, still an improvement.

- The shoulders aren't aliegned on centre of the shoulder. (Post #15) FIXED! http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post41345646

[Deleted]

Really nice changes.

Looking forward to see further tweaks to models.

[derpkitteh]

i still don't like her arm positioning while running.

but those hair styles are great. especially 2, 3, and 13.

[Soliden]

Ya, it's good to see that they're still tweaking the new models to have them fall in line with the vanilla ones (though I didn't expect them to just abandon them after they were done making the HD ones).

[melkesjokolade]

Thanks, finally someone adressing the Troll issues!

[Deleted]

- Weapon is changing the sieze whearas it's unseather or not:

I have noticed weapons becoming smaller when sheathed on other models too. I think it was intentional. There are quite a few huge weapons that would look ridiculous if they didn't change size when sheathed.

Anyways, I love the hairstyle ideas! All races need more hair options.

[Ramz]

Thanks so far. I'll continue to update the thread with picutres and suggestion, and I am also looking for feedback from other players, each voice matters

[Oggudrai]

Thanks, finally someone adressing the Troll issues!

I'm going to be providing my own monster post in not too long, hopefully, with screenies and everything!

But yes, way to go Ramz!

[Krekal]

Ponyhawk looks amazing, and with the new running animation i might be able to gear up my dk without cringing

[Oggudrai]

Edit:

Adding this in for "posterity", to keep feedback gathered and for the sake of ease when linking this as reference for all things related to the model feedback.

Now that Battle for Azeroth's Blood Troll male model is essentially addressing every issue I have with the playable Male Troll body-wise, I decided to mock up some images comparing the two, breaking down exactly how it improves upon the Darkspear model it was based on along with some anatomy displays for referece:

(They also fixed the indentation in the back).





Original post follows:

--SNIP-- Lots of images/text

Quoting all of the above to stress that she's not the only one concerned about these issues...

I agree I enjoy the changes in the troll female...

Now if only us males could join in on the fun!

Though I do notice they did fix -one- of their bugs recently. Up until recently there'd occur a strange bug under their lower lip when flexing, it seems they tweaked the animation to fix it.

This is great but again, the model needs more attention than this.

I am super grateful for you putting this thread together and for bringing some of the feedback I had put up in my own thread and some of my screenshots into your own, it's heartening and I applaud the effort and research you've made put into this.

Going to add my own feedback and examples in a bit.

MORE OF HIS FEEDBACK: (POST #10 ) http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33352471
And here is more http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612042307

Thanks for adding this link as well, but for those of you not wanting to have to go and read another post on another forum (with an admittedly heavyhanded OP, because it was meant more for the devs than fellow forumdwellers), here's the sketches linked to within:

Comparison between old and new model:


Suggestion for a more toned, defined body build:


My work on the hands and feet especially (particularly the "dewclaw" which I made too dissimlar to the heel-toe of the Troll female) I'm not all that proud of, but the purpose was to illustrate an alternative build for the Troll rather than the finer details like digits and the face (which is kind of iffy as well).

- - - Updated - - -

After several months of silence in regards to this model in particular, a model which stands amongst the most unfinished and unpolished of the revamped races, my hopefulness has deteriorated in favour of concern... Because in all honesty, they Ccan not stay like this.

I have other issues but if there is only -one- change (besides the unanimated braid) that makes it into the game I really, really hope it'll be this one. I realize that editing geometry is probably the most demanding of tweaks, as it in this case involves working on the cloaks, on the positioning of sheathed weapons and so forth but this flaw is just far too bad to let remain. As can be seen, in certain animations (particularly /cower) their backs look broken and curve unnaturally. In some cases it's borderline concave.



Another big and far more mentioned gripe, one that is also shared by the Night Elf male, is the lower resolution of their textures compared to other races... The most obviously place where this lower quality can be seen is on their feet as Ramz showed above. Their tusks as well look somewhat lacking in detail, compared to say similar extremities like the horns of Draenei and Tauren.
It's also particularly visible on their limbs, such as in the regions of their shoulders and upper arms compared to say, the Dwarf male, which I think was made by the same artist...



More than just the issue with their backs, I think the model's geometry could use some touch-up, if not a revamp entirely to reflect how muscular their textures try to indicate they should be in some places. They could benefit from gaining more contours on their limbs, like the triceps; something much more similar to Vol'jin's build.

Though they -did- try and buff them up slightly, increasing the volume of their biceps and chest, this is counteracted by how some parts of the model look -less- muscular now. We've already seen their back and how it makes their core look weaker:



^ What's anatomically wrong here is that pretty much the entirey of the Latissimus Dorsi muscles have no volume: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latissimus_dorsi_muscle - everything else on their back is mostly fine, the Trapezius is perfect and so is the lower back, but there should be a curve in-between those points composed of the bulk that the 'Lats' should have, which both anatomical correctness and faithfulness to the old model demands they should have (those muscles were very much more filled out on the old, though polygonal and blocky - I still think that bulk should be recreated)

But their limbs also have similar problems with their geometry, either feeling underdeveloped or diverging from the old.

arms:



legs:



Here's an overall "study" of the geometry disparities of the model as a whole along with some crude visualization-lines to suggest what changes be made considering the above:



There's also some issues with how some pieces of gear sits on the model too, such as with shoulderpads that are now angled entirely differently duing the 2-hand weapon animations; which can lead to nasty cases of clipping such as you can see in the upper left and bottom pictures in this screenshot (the picture to the right is of the original model for comparison):



Animation wise, there's been a whole lot of artistic liberties as well, I and many others seem to miss the old walk, many people feel the running animation is too different now, and the same could be said for the casting animations though my primary gripe is the walking animation. Additionally, the Troll male actually hunches forward a bit more than before and it makes him appear somewhat shorter.

To summarize, what I would like to see is:

- Back fixed (Too flat & indented, older had bulkier lats)

- Limbs more similar to the old (shoulders need to be bigger, triceps are too flat, legs need to be more contoured and slightly bulked up)

- Braid/braids hairstyles fixed (animated properly)

- Eyecolours made more visible.

- Body and tusk textures to be more detailed and polished.

- Walking animation closer to the original.

Don't get me wrong though - there is plenty I -do- enjoy about the model. Their faces are terriffically realized, I adore their new fangs, their ears and how they emote, how they talk.

I very much sympathize with the creator of the troll male model, as his accident no doubt influenced the progress this model was able to recieve before they were implemented.

I can still wait patiently, and I can still appreciate some aspects of the troll revamp, however after so long both me, and I reckon many other troll fans and players would have liked, at the very least, some acknowledgement, some response to our feedback. Any reassurance that constructive criticism about this model in particular is being considered and that more tweaks beyond the two minor corrections they've had up until now.

[Ramz]

Those are great screenshots Ogg, I think that many of us expect for troll males to have similar musculature as Vol'Jin has. I will try to post my suggestion for troll male hairstyles as soon as possible :P

Anyway I want to hear what do you guys think about all of this feedback and if you could help spreading awareness

[3vyan]

Great thread!

Im kinda sad you'e not a draenei player Ramz.
They could use your love and detailed analysis/improvements.

[Oggudrai]

Great thread!

Im kinda sad you'e not a draenei player Ramz.
They could use your love and detailed analysis/improvements.

Despite kind of disliking the additional bulk the Draenei males recieved, particularly to the arms, I will say that I do find their triceps too flat as well.

[Arpin]

Oh wow, this is really good thread, indeed! I'm happy someone brought this up, since troll is my favorite race in the game and lore.

[Deleted]

I've not played horde for years (when i did, i got mainly trollz) but i have of course tried fem troll models (even reported few bugs back in beta, esp. that buggy bow animation...*) and that shoulder armor alignment bothers me. Some (mainly newer ones) are sitting ok, but some simpler ones are too far back, even clipping into model:



Also that DK face bug is hilarious. Some faces (not all) get manly jaw if you are DK:



Anyway, i really like fem troll faces, they are SHARP and beautiful (imo). I don't know about animations though... but they are still 9000x better than my current messy fem nelf and draenei faces. Fuuuuck!

* Actually i reported many fem draenei bugs TWICE back in beta, none of them are fixed. That's why i'm not really expect anything.

[Crtarel]

A very nice break down

[Deleted]

Another thank you for this thread. I'm planning to resuscribe in a few months and was wondering how/if troll models had changed with the recent patches, as 3 of my chars including my main are troll dudes. I guess we aren't nearly as sexy as elves, so we don't get 200 page long threads.

I'll admit the stiffness of the braids don't bother me too much, I could see trolls use some kind of starch to make their hair super stiff... though yeah, a complete lack of animation seems weird.

I remember my BC goggles transmog sitting awkwardly on my troll's face. As if they were too big or too high on his face. So I've resorted to using my WoD goggles, but it's just not the same.



And great artwork Ramz, I love the hawk styles and the ornamented one !

[Oggudrai]

Another thank you for this thread. I'm planning to resuscribe in a few months and was wondering how/if troll models had changed with the recent patches, as 3 of my chars including my main are troll dudes. I guess we aren't nearly as sexy as elves, so we don't get 200 page long threads.

I'll admit the stiffness of the braids don't bother me too much, I could see trolls use some kind of starch to make their hair super stiff... though yeah, a complete lack of animation seems weird.

I remember my BC goggles transmog sitting awkwardly on my troll's face. As if they were too big or too high on his face. So I've resorted to using my WoD goggles, but it's just not the same.



And great artwork Ramz, I love the hawk styles and the ornamented one !

We're sexier... Most people just don't have the mental and physical fortitude to comprehend their unique brand of sex appeal.

There's been two changes since their initial implementaion... The base texture of white hair now has the correct colour, instead of being gray. And when flexing, they make a snarling face, originally they'd just have their lips stretched together in a way that caused the textures from the insides of their mouths to break through their chin... That's been fixed with the new animation.

I hear ya... My troll doesn't have goggles though, but his eyepatch floats above his eye... though that's an issue with all of the models.

[Ramz]

Another thank you for this thread. I'm planning to resuscribe in a few months and was wondering how/if troll models had changed with the recent patches, as 3 of my chars including my main are troll dudes. I guess we aren't nearly as sexy as elves, so we don't get 200 page long threads.

*wink wink* Hey... How U Doin'?

Don't look at it this way, It's becuase elves look so much worse this is why they got so much pages xD JK
Trolls are sexy in their own way http://oi58.tinypic.com/2rhn18h.jpg

Anyway It's really great that people are providing thier feedbad I'll update the main post with your submissions!

And great artwork Ramz, I love the hawk styles and the ornamented one !

Thanks! And here goes concept for troll males!

http://img06.deviantart.net/e953/i/2..._y-d8qgraa.jpg

[Nanaboostme]

Love the amount of detail put into this. Great job