Troll models in 6.2.

[Ramz]

"If I can't see you, you can't see me!"

That reminds me of Asterix and Obelix mission Celopatra movie, with the spy scene xD

"When you look like that that you can see me, when you look like that you can't see me"

[Oggudrai]

I feel like I miss out on so much ridiculous stuff by having my rogue constantly wear goggles. To think I've never known the beauty of a troll zooming around in stealth with Burst of Speed, with his eyes shut... Such skill ! Troll master race.

I don't mind the male trolls being "skinny" (let's just call it Warcraft-skinny), but I'm not against better muscle definition. Like, maybe when they update the model's texture quality... one day... perhaps.

To be quite fair though with tusks like that there's a good chance he will manage to murder -someone- running around blind like that xD

I like that, "Warcraft-skinny"... Indeed they'd be pretty darn imposing IRL, not just from the height either. Just a tad bit more contours in the limbs and again, that back fixed (yes, I'm gonna go on about that until it is) I think they'll look at about perfect body-wise.

Indeed! This is true mastery and perfection. You know who else is showing true perfection? Our new Warchief :

Troll master race indeed :P

That's the third time I see this and I still lose it just as hard as I did the first time xD

[Deleted]

lmao the Van Damme parody. Perfect.

That reminds me of Asterix and Obelix mission Celopatra movie, with the spy scene xD

"When you look like that that you can see me, when you look like that you can't see me"

Haha, I've been wondering to what extent this movie is known outside France. It's a classic here of course.

that back fixed (yes, I'm gonna go on about that until it is)

You're right to go on about it... Once you see it (I hadn't) you can't unsee it. Something like that can only be a modeling mistake...

[Oggudrai]

I actually almost feel kind of bad for bringing it to the attention of people who were once blissfully unaware. Though it still perplexes me how so few people saw it!

But on the other hand it's a really bad flaw in the model... Better to "catch it now" before more people notice it in my opinion.

Mistake and mistake, again, the artist who made it - Chris G. Robinson - had a really nasty accident with his hand roughly at around the same time as he was working on it (cut a tendon in his finger!)... I suspect it's more that he just ran out of time from having to recover from it. I'm more happy that he recovered at all really... Would be awful if it permanently put him out of something he's so passionate for (from my impression of him on twitter)

I have a suspicion that he's actually aware of the geometry issues, particularly the back of it. He once said that he wanted to only release an artcraft once he could put "the best foot forward" regarding that particular model... So all of the other artcraft previews involved an angle where we could see the model from behind.

The only artcraft where it didn't, was on the troll male... Which may actually be largely why people didn't notice come to think of it.

So in the uncertainty regarding wether or not Blizzard has caught wind of threads like this, and more specifically, that particular flaw (Loa knows I've been spamming their twitters about it), I'm just trying to have faith in my impression that he's aware of it, and my faith in the pride he has in his work. He did the Dwarf male, which still stands as one of the best models in-game overall.

[Ramz]

Haha, I've been wondering to what extent this movie is known outside France. It's a classic here of course.

In my country it was also very welll received. Though there had to be changed certain lines in order to appeal to audience sense of humor. But regardles it as very neat comedy

Anyway interesting fact, Van Damme appeared as Troll Mage in WoW Commercial :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNg5ysYd0zc


But that's a huge digression, I'm working now on troll male body texture, I'm trying to adjust the colours and shapen it a bit, though it's rather low resolution and each change will actually lower the quality ;f

- - - Updated - - -

Alright as I promised I'm posting body texture small edit.

This is how it looks in-game :



And this is how after (loose) edit:



I haven't tried to apply it on the model but base object of this edit was to make colours similar to troll female counterpart, and therefore make him look more lively and healthy :

[Oggudrai]

It does point out what I said earlier indeed, about the skin colour of the male being more muted than it was on the old. Good going

Been a long while since I looked at those textures on their own... I wonder if it's less an inherent lack of detail and more that it just wasn't scaled well enough and stretched oddly along the model... Though there's certainly not as much shading and highlights than the female even when "compressed".

Remember seeing this datamined before the artcraft, was all excited thinking they would have geometry that was going to match the muscular detail of those textures :<

[Ramz]

I'm not saying that those edits of mine are perfect I am aware that my meddling with them decresed the quality even more, but the texture itslef is in small format, I'd have to enlage it five times to make it a desireable "workplace".

And tbh I haven't done skins before, yet it would be a great practice.


Oh and Snuzzle, please tell us when will you put that model racial thread, I am waiting with huge anticipation!

[Zulkhan]

I personally liked the shoulders as they were, I feel they're just one of many things that geometrically are different without needing to be different, but to each their own. I could live with the shoulder being smaller, I'd much rather see their backs restored and their legs to look as powerful as they once did

Pretty much. "Thiner" legs seem another consequence of the greater details that somehow stole mass. But the back is the real problem for me. Shoulders could even remain this way, but the back need to gain muscles. That could also improve the walking issue I mentioned until now.

Yeah in certain angles they do look too thin, and Jungle trolls are still meant to be strong and imposing. I really love troll male build but I am among those people who want on them a little more body mass and visible muscles, I always imagined for them to be great in acrobatics, that they're swift and agile.

Excatly. I mean, goddamn, in Tides of Darkness Doomhammer describes Forest Trolls as being very swift and efficient in the way they moved within their forests. And Forest Trolls are bulky as much as an Orc. Jungle Trolls should definetely be slightly stronger than Night Elves and slightly less agile.

I don't know I found previous way he moved his arms to be unnatural, I tried to mimic his way of running and it didn't felt right. The new one I find much more realistic specially when he has faster movements, proper weight, so they finally show this wild troll nature. Besides it's a very good transition from this run to sprint animation, which if my favourite spring animation in game.

To me the problem was how the Troll moved as a whole, making the arms' moviment looking pretty unnatural aswell. But the new model, the Troll male could still move his arms in a similar way and look definetely more natural. Ofcourse if you mimic the movement look awful, but as someone who frequents gym almost daily, I can tell you that is not absurd for us males assume a vaguely similar way of moving arms while walking/running. The reason of this is if you focus on teres, back and trapezius empowerment, the muscular grow "distance" the arms from the torso, which give that sensation that a person pretend to be "strong" with an imposing posture while, in fact, is the ony natural posture they can assume.

Now, I'm pretty sure a Troll male has more muscular build than me and any other human in-game (plus they have very long arms) and what's funny is that the new model added a lot of the muscles I talked about, yet now his arms stay incredibly sticked to the chest. To me, the arms should definetely be more distant, this way the Troll male looks even more slim that he actually is. This combined with some more muscular mass on the back and maybe a bit more on the shoulders would do the trick.

In some cases they don't fit, but when it comes to emotes they're spot on imo. I specially adore question animation. He is just so adorable and he looks like big kitten.

Which is all good but I don't want to become too adorable honestly, I still want my Troll to look threatening! My avatar is there to explain what I mean

Ooooh I like him xD But I meant something else

Oh yeah I imagined that, but I'm always eager to clarify how the "controversial" part of my sig isn't just anti-elf rambling, I have a tradition to carry on!

*grins* Oh I am.

You look pretty. Pretty tasty.

Lol these flirt emotes are awesome.

I think this is the sign of perfection! He is so pro that he don't have to look where he goes! xD

Lol well, we know for sure that Darkspear revere Hir'eek, the Bat God. Troll Rogues linked to this Loa giving him the capability to sense the surroundings as bats do would be spectacular.

This... I don't even feel they'd need to be bulked up a lot either, as Seahnjin pointed out, Vol'jin's extent of bulk might be too much of a deviation, but getting the same toned contours to match the more muscular textures wouldn't go astray

Well, never forget Vol'jin is a Horde leader (even Warchief now) and leaders in-game tend to be somewhat...huge, for no reasons.

I think Vol'jin model is pretty good, it's just scaled up a bit because of his position and importance as a character.

If this carries on much further you two are going to need to find a distant treetop/jungle ruin :P

The jungle ruin is a pretty delicious idea, but the treetop is destinied to turn into a mess. If my warrior Kanzul goes in full berserk mode in the middle of it, that tree gonna turn into timber of our garrisons in a couple of seconds.

Ye, No reasonable troll player would want to drasticaly change thier belowed model. We all just want for trolls to look convincing as fighters.

Pretty much. Jungle Trolls are not meant to be "slim" but to be "less bulky" than Forest/Ice Trolls. They should be closer to elves in terms of muscular mass, but still physically stronger than them.

But in situations like that you're meant to mention dark cave :P Treetop isn't practical, you might fell off.

If you have to do something, do it with style. Troll-style.

Now, why hide in a dark cave? Let's go right in the middle of Booty Bay, with all those pesky goblins wondering what the hell is going on. As they begin to make questions, you gonna remind them how their filthy "bay" is built upon Troll land. If they gonna leave without question, good. Otherwise, heads gonna roll in a heartbeat. Or as the good soul of Zul'jin (may he rests in peace) would say:

"You wanna stay? You stay here forever! We gonna bury you here......"

and then we'll do our "thing" for the rest of the day right upon the spot of the buried goblins. Glorious, vicious, brutal and classy troll-style!

He did the Dwarf male, which still stands as one of the best models in-game overall.

That's excatly why my only Alliance toon is a Dwarf. Kinda.

[Oggudrai]

Pretty much. "Thiner" legs seem another consequence of the greater details that somehow stole mass. But the back is the real problem for me. Shoulders could even remain this way, but the back need to gain muscles. That could also improve the walking issue I mentioned until now.

Glad we've gotten another voice for this change in you, my friend

Excatly. I mean, goddamn, in Tides of Darkness Doomhammer describes Forest Trolls as being very swift and efficient in the way they moved within their forests. And Forest Trolls are bulky as much as an Orc. Jungle Trolls should definetely be slightly stronger than Night Elves and slightly less agile.

I haven't read tides of Darkness, though I'd love to, I have read Shadows of the Horde and it definitely indicates Jungle trolls are a lot stronger than people tend to give them credit for. Say what you will about the base stats but it also supports the statistics they're given there... They're much more than just slightly stronger then night elves, but also slightly less agile like you said as a trade-off.

To me the problem was how the Troll moved as a whole, making the arms' moviment looking pretty unnatural aswell. But the new model, the Troll male could still move his arms in a similar way and look definetely more natural. Ofcourse if you mimic the movement look awful, but as someone who frequents gym almost daily, I can tell you that is not absurd for us males assume a vaguely similar way of moving arms while walking/running. The reason of this is if you focus on teres, back and trapezius empowerment, the muscular grow "distance" the arms from the torso, which give that sensation that a person pretend to be "strong" with an imposing posture while, in fact, is the ony natural posture they can assume.

Now, I'm pretty sure a Troll male has more muscular build than me and any other human in-game (plus they have very long arms) and what's funny is that the new model added a lot of the muscles I talked about, yet now his arms stay incredibly sticked to the chest. To me, the arms should definetely be more distant, this way the Troll male looks even more slim that he actually is. This combined with some more muscular mass on the back and maybe a bit more on the shoulders would do the trick.

That's an interesting analysis. You definitely know more about anatomy than I do, despite how I gabbed on about it in my early posts xD so I'm glad you could give us this insight, it's very helpful... though they added the muscle in texture only, almost... Personally I think the walk should be made much more similar to the old to be in line with the goals Blizzard stated they had with these models, and also as a nod to the people who liked their original walk to begin with. However if they're only going to tweak it half-way similar to the old I suppose I could live with what you're proposing... Most of all I want the "bird-walk" headbobbing and the constant mouth movement gone in the walk, and the sway of the arms slightly reduced. The shoulder movement isn't all that bad, it's how they swing their arms far out behind them which bothers me most.

Oh yeah I imagined that, but I'm always eager to clarify how the "controversial" part of my sig isn't just anti-elf rambling, I have a tradition to carry on!

It's only fair with some of the signatures some people have around here which most definitely are anti-troll ramblings, faulty ones at that :P

Lol well, we know for sure that Darkspear revere Hir'eek, the Bat God. Troll Rogues linked to this Loa giving him the capability to sense the surroundings as bats do would be spectacular.

Zan was always more of a hethiss mon himself, but you never know, he might be trying other things out when I'm not looking.

Well, never forget Vol'jin is a Horde leader (even Warchief now) and leaders in-game tend to be somewhat...huge, for no reasons.

I think Vol'jin model is pretty good, it's just scaled up a bit because of his position and importance as a character.

Obviously, but even if you scaled Vol'jin down to the same size as playable trolls he'd still be bulkier than them, you can particularly see this in the difference of his proportions; looking from the front his arms are a considerably thicker for instance... Which I don't need the new model to have (I'll admit it would be a bit cool, but I know some people wouldn't be happy about it so I'd prefer not), but the general shape of Vol'jin's arms and textures similar to his legs (or that of the troll female) along with the required bulk-up of their thighs to sell the more toned textures, would make the models perfect for me...

But for now, the most important thing is the back, I agree.

Pretty much. Jungle Trolls are not meant to be "slim" but to be "less bulky" than Forest/Ice Trolls. They should be closer to elves in terms of muscular mass, but still physically stronger than them.

We know they are, regarding that last point. Regarding aesthetics though, which this thread is about, the Night Elf males in-game have a deceptively, stylized "Samwise" look to them (which is why I don't trust "strength estimations" from looking at models in-game), which I don't want on my trolls, it's bound to happen that they're going to look like they have less or the same mass (though the old models when comparing them had roughly the same volume overall). Aesthetically they don't need to change much, though it says something about the lacking faithfulness from old to new with both those models when I can put them side by side and see that they don't compare how they used to...

[Ramz]

I really like the hair suggestions. I wish they do something like that. Plus I am not very amazed with orcs hair. Before there was like 2 that liked very much, now there is barely one because somehow it feels off.

And which one do you like the most? Sorry I'm asking this everyone

Excatly. I mean, goddamn, in Tides of Darkness Doomhammer describes Forest Trolls as being very swift and efficient in the way they moved within their forests. And Forest Trolls are bulky as much as an Orc. Jungle Trolls should definetely be slightly stronger than Night Elves and slightly less agile.

I always thought that trolls and elves are the same in agility department, sure elves are good in avoidance, but trolls are pretty fast, they even have racials for that with berserker that gants extra speed, and voodoo shuffle to not get hold for too long (sure it's crap racial in game, but that's not the point xD).

I think I read somewhere that trolls, worgen and elves are equaly agile. Though I need to search somewhere for source, I read it long ago so it's possible it's fan-theory rather than in-game proof.

To me the problem was how the Troll moved as a whole, making the arms' moviment looking pretty unnatural aswell. But the new model, the Troll male could still move his arms in a similar way and look definetely more natural. Ofcourse if you mimic the movement look awful, but as someone who frequents gym almost daily, I can tell you that is not absurd for us males assume a vaguely similar way of moving arms while walking/running. The reason of this is if you focus on teres, back and trapezius empowerment, the muscular grow "distance" the arms from the torso, which give that sensation that a person pretend to be "strong" with an imposing posture while, in fact, is the ony natural posture they can assume.

Now, I'm pretty sure a Troll male has more muscular build than me and any other human in-game (plus they have very long arms) and what's funny is that the new model added a lot of the muscles I talked about, yet now his arms stay incredibly sticked to the chest. To me, the arms should definetely be more distant, this way the Troll male looks even more slim that he actually is. This combined with some more muscular mass on the back and maybe a bit more on the shoulders would do the trick.

Damn, I really need to get back to karate xD, I guess my convalescence is over.

Which is all good but I don't want to become too adorable honestly, I still want my Troll to look threatening! My avatar is there to explain what I mean

... they're also mischevious, cunning, and so on and so on. And I like that those qualities are also shown ^^

You look pretty. Pretty tasty.

Lol these flirt emotes are awesome.

Indeed. Come get da voodoo ;P

Lol well, we know for sure that Darkspear revere Hir'eek, the Bat God. Troll Rogues linked to this Loa giving him the capability to sense the surroundings as bats do would be spectacular.

That sounds super awesome! Why again trolls aren't a superpower on Azeroth? *scratches her head*

The jungle ruin is a pretty delicious idea, but the treetop is destinied to turn into a mess. If my warrior Kanzul goes in full berserk mode in the middle of it, that tree gonna turn into timber of our garrisons in a couple of seconds.

Ahead of events aren't cha? Hah like my priestess would get dragged to a ruins, humph!

If you have to do something, do it with style. Troll-style.

Now, why hide in a dark cave? Let's go right in the middle of Booty Bay, with all those pesky goblins wondering what the hell is going on. As they begin to make questions, you gonna remind them how their filthy "bay" is built upon Troll land. If they gonna leave without question, good. Otherwise, heads gonna roll in a heartbeat. Or as the good soul of Zul'jin (may he rests in peace) would say:

"You wanna stay? You stay here forever! We gonna bury you here......"

and then we'll do our "thing" for the rest of the day right upon the spot of the buried goblins. Glorious, vicious, brutal and classy troll-style!

I think Venture Co. and other goblin settlements are more bothering than Booty Bay, which is a hidden place among caves. Also they have a nice tavern there!

That's excatly why my only Alliance toon is a Dwarf. Kinda.

I hope you leveled him pre-cata. Otherwise you'd be quite displeased with their questing experience, I for sure am after creating a new dwarf.

We're derailing this thread though :P

[Oggudrai]

I always thought that trolls and elves are the same in agility department, sure elves are good in avoidance, but trolls are pretty fast, they even have racials for that with berserker that gants extra speed, and voodoo shuffle to not get hold for too long (sure it's crap racial in game, but that's not the point xD).

I think I read somewhere that trolls, worgen and elves are equaly agile. Though I need to search somewhere for source, I read it long ago so it's possible it's fan-theory rather than in-game proof.

No, Trolls are slightly lower in the agility department compared to Elves... But to balance that they're also much more resilient to damage along with the other perks you described.

I don't know what you read, but I can tell you that Worgen and Trolls are equally agile, looking at the base stats (I don't care what people say about them, they wouldn't be set up as they are if it was all just for gameplay balance otherwise they'd all have stats like the humans, and it's also the most reliable source we have)

... they're also mischevious, cunning, and so on and so on. And I like that those qualities are also shown ^^

Now there's something, we've spent a lot of time focusing on negative feedback... Perhaps we should shift the discussion over to what we're happy with and what we don't think needs changed? Granted for the troll male it's not a lot, and the female has already been pretty well covered... But some repetition of the female's positive aspects surely wouldn't go amiss either...

For me regarding the troll male, for now, what I can think of is that I like how their head was reinterpreted. I would have liked if one or two faces could be less grouchy and given that more "impish/friendlier" quality that some posters have described, but otherwise I think they're spot on... Their talking emotes, their cry, their salute in particular and many other similar emotes were for me pretty damn good... However, there's some that might need a change of expression. I always imagined more jovialness when they /waved than they do now...

So much for strictly positive feedback from my part, but you get the point :P

[DoctorScientst]

No, Trolls are slightly lower in the agility department compared to Elves... But to balance that they're also much more resilient to damage along with the other perks you described.

I don't know what you read, but I can tell you that Worgen and Trolls are equally agile, looking at the base stats (I don't care what people say about them, they wouldn't be set up as they are if it was all just for gameplay balance otherwise they'd all have stats like the humans, and it's also the most reliable source we have)

Are the base stats of a gilnean human as agile as a troll? Or do they gain agility with the curse.

[Ramz]

No, Trolls are slightly lower in the agility department compared to Elves... But to balance that they're also much more resilient to damage along with the other perks you described.

I don't know what you read, but I can tell you that Worgen and Trolls are equally agile, looking at the base stats (I don't care what people say about them, they wouldn't be set up as they are if it was all just for gameplay balance otherwise they'd all have stats like the humans, and it's also the most reliable source we have)



Now there's something, we've spent a lot of time focusing on negative feedback... Perhaps we should shift the discussion over to what we're happy with and what we don't think needs changed? Granted for the troll male it's not a lot, and the female has already been pretty well covered... But some repetition of the female's positive aspects surely wouldn't go amiss either...

For me regarding the troll male, for now, what I can think of is that I like how their head was reinterpreted. I would have liked if one or two faces could be less grouchy and given that more "impish/friendlier" quality that some posters have described, but otherwise I think they're spot on... Their talking emotes, their cry, their salute in particular and many other similar emotes were for me pretty damn good... However, there's some that might need a change of expression. I always imagined more jovialness when they /waved than they do now...

So much for strictly positive feedback from my part, but you get the point :P

You can newer be wrong with more facial options, troll males got only 5, Tauren female only 4! Troll female 6. I think they should increase number to 10 at least.

I will say that despite obvious flaws I think trolls look great, I like the fact they have actual hands with fingers, I like the fact they have facial expressions, and boy they're cute!

And I still think troll male is good looking and handsome.

I'm editing certain pictures. I'll later updated them to OP, and provide another feedback.

[Cien]

I haven't played my trolly priest since vanilla, and I main alliance now But i can see you've gone to a lot of effort here so i really hope your concerns reach blizzard and can be addressed, keep up the work Ramz! Ya'mon!

[Ramz]

I haven't played my trolly priest since vanilla, and I main alliance now But i can see you've gone to a lot of effort here so i really hope your concerns reach blizzard and can be addressed, keep up the work Ramz! Ya'mon!

Thanks a lot for suport ^^

I'm posting picture showing how unpleasant new casting animation is.

[Oggudrai]

Are the base stats of a gilnean human as agile as a troll? Or do they gain agility with the curse.

Pretty most likely that the base stats are designed in mind with the curse of course even before you get your worgen model and racials... Since all base stats are based off of a one level character.

Pretty good screenshot, that definitely needs capitalized on... sadly it's the animations like that I'm the most worried about won't get touched upon

[Ramz]

I edited the hairstyles so they fit in the window message and I updated with balding spots on "braids" hairstyle.



Oggy, if we're vocal enough about it, I guess it is gonna be fixed

[Oggudrai]

Brilliant work I think the single unanimated braid would get fied anyways but we should keep pointing out on principle, and other issues that I'm more dubious about, with other braid hairstyles.

- - - Updated - - -

Btw, figured I'd show off another bug that I just remembered... I'll add another in a bit, both Monk based, but here's one of them, and the most egregious one:



I actually think this afflicts several other models too, but here's evidence that it applies to the troll male.

This might also apply to other races than the troll male, think it might even apply to the Pandaren, but here's an issue with the flying kick animation:



The issue is that the animation used to have a "landing" animation once the kick ends, instead of dropping straight into the idle standing animation.

- - - Updated - - -

... Come to think of it they seem to lack the "starting" animation as well! Though you could say that due to the nature of the mechanic's of the ability that having a chain of three animations would be too much.

That the last animation of that sequence is missing is somewhat iffy though... I'll see if I can make some gifs to show what I mean.

[DeicideUH]

The issue is that the animation used to have a "landing" animation once the kick ends, instead of dropping straight into the idle standing animation.

Does this happen every time?

I noticed (and reported for multiple times, since 5.4) that sometimes the "landing" animation after a jump or fall stops playing for a character. It can only be fixed by entering/exiting a instance, logging off and in or going to another continent. Is this not the case with the flying kick? (Try jumping and landing without walking after your flying king)

The "landing while walking" animation is not messed up by this bug.

[Oggudrai]

Does this happen every time?

I noticed (and reported for multiple times, since 5.4) that sometimes the "landing" animation after a jump or fall stops playing for a character. It can only be fixed by entering/exiting a instance, logging off and in or going to another continent. Is this not the case with the flying kick? (Try jumping and landing without walking after your flying king)

The "landing while walking" animation is not messed up by this bug.

I've experienced the bug you're referring to and I've noticed how to fix it, yes, happens with many characters. But this is not the same one, I logged in and out, and even went to the PTR to check, the lack of the unique landing animation for the flying kick just does not occur when you cast that ability... Going to make ready some gifs now to show what I mean. Gimme a minute or so.

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... Okay so it took more than a minute!

Excuse the lack of tusks, using a rather crappy version of the model viewer, not sure where to get a more updated one...

Here's the starting animation for the flying kick ability:



and here's the animation that's supposed to occur after it ends, unless you toggle the stomping attack of course :P