1. #2201

  2. #2202
    We'll have to wait to see stats but that is a very strong looking roster without any obvious major weaknesses. No major beatsticks or offensive infantry but they don't need them.

    You've got solid dependable defensive infantry to hold the line while you wreck the enemy with very powerful missile and artillery troops, backed up mage and cavalry, including flying cav. And you've even got flying snipers and artillery.

    Sounds like it'll play a bit like dwarves, just with more mobility, magic and better missile troops.

  3. #2203
    They seem to have everything going for them.

    All you want in this game is range, missle damage, artillery and melee defence (since melee units are basically worthless in terms of dealing damage) and some spellcasters. They have the best version of cav as well: the flying type, which is good for sieges.
    And they have weapon teams, just like Jezzails. Depending on the unit thats, this seems to be the go-to faction for "very hard" battle difficulty.

    Seems to me like you'll put ~2-4 melee units together with lots of crane gunners and artillery.
    Since they don't seem to have melee heroes, you'll probably substitute that with something else, like the Wu-Xing War Compass or other Yang aligned stuff.

    It's cool though, because the Ying/Yang stuff will probably make you want to build melee units. That's something you don't want to do with other races. So army building is going to be more fun than just doomstacking 1 unit type.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-10-10 at 08:15 AM.

  4. #2204
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQEOEpgPBuU
    00:00 - 05:14 Intro & Cathay Army Book
    05:15 - 08:51 Is The Lore Fully Linked?
    08:52 - 10:22 There was only ONE Dragon Emperor
    10:23 - 12:58 Who Is The Moon Empress?
    12:59 - 20:17 How many Dragon Children? And Who Are They?
    20:18 - 22:20 Are Cathay still isolationist? Do they have other bases?
    22:21 - 25:58 Are Cathayan Dragons their own species?
    25:59 - 27:17 Cathayan Dragons are NOT Gods
    27:18 - 29:18 Are There More Dragons in Cathay?
    29:19 - 32:00 Where did the Dragon Emperor go? Monkey King take over?
    32:01 - 34:24 The Dragon Emperor has a plan
    34:25 - 38:51 Dragon Bro
    38:52 - 44:04 The Monkey King & Monkey Warriors, Ind and Khuresh Naga
    44:05 - 45:45 Nippon?
    45:06 - 47:40 Can you tell us about other big cities in Cathay?
    47:41 - 50:21 Cathay's relationship with Chaos
    50:22 - 53:33 Can you tell us about the Celestial city?
    53:34 - 57:33 The lores of Yin and Yang & Dragon Blooded
    57:34 - 58:44 Jade Vampires?
    58:45 - 1:03:48 Regions of Cathay
    1:03:49 - 1:05:09 New Clan Eshin lore?
    1:05:10 - 1:08:04 Who is the master artificer?
    1:08:05 - 1:10:20 How much of Cathay's lore is now established?
    1:10:21 - 1:12:27 Who are Cathay's big enemies?
    1:12:28 - 1:14:12 The Great Maw?
    1:14:13 - 1:15:58 Dragon Monks?
    1:15:59 - 1:19:27 Why does Tzeentch want Cathay?
    1:19:28 - 1:24:00 The other dragons and the elements? How powerful are they?
    1:24:01 - 1:29:19 When was the Grand Bastion built? Any other info?
    1:29:20 -1:31:54 Any well known mortal Cathayans?
    1:31:55 - 1:38:49 Magic in Cathay?
    1:38:50 - 1:44:41 - Closing thoughts and outro

  5. #2205

  6. #2206
    Man I stop looking at WH3 news last Thursday and they drop the Cathay roster, lore interview AND siege rework in like 3 days.

    For the roster: I think nothing here wasn't shown before save for the shotgunners, and it looks like a strong roster at first glance. It does have clear weaknesses however; their best land cav is about Empire Knights tier, they don't have a versatile and cost-effective AP ranged unit like handgunners (Crane guns/shotguns are specialist and their crossbow units are hybrids AKA rarely cost-effective), their infantry is strictly defensive, and their air game relies entirely on how good Longma are. If they're as meh as Pegasus Knights they'll hardly be able to use those sky lanterns and sky junks, slow air units are just asking to get dunked on or shot out of the sky. Plus no melee heroes or even LL which is a huge hole in multiplayer, and no healing outside of Mrs. Cold and Aloof. Methinks Cathay will be hella strong in campaign but in MP they'll be outmaneuvered fairly easily by factions like Khorne, Slaanesh and Kislev.

    As for the siege rework: better than I feared, worse than I hoped. First we get completely redone layouts to allow more avenues of approach, more elevated positions and larger maps in general with more space to maneuver, and also different factions will have vastly different layouts, with defensive races like Cathay and Dwafs having well-ordered fortresses while Greenskins, Skaven and Chaos will have far more ramshackle and/or weird stuff. All of this is 100% welcome and brings joy to my heart. Second we get barricades, towers and traps (I saw spikes and caltrops) as buildable both in the preparation screen (great!) and mid-battle (meh). Third, there are now several capturable points per settlement, one in particular grants large buffs to the defender and should be a priority for the attacker. Fourth, the AI has been changed to handle sieges better; I'll believe it when I see it but if so, another great piece of news. Also a couple other things such as some units being now able to attack walls directly which is nice, and I saw that crane gunners could be put on said walls so I assume weapon teams in general are now allowed up there.

    Sadly pocket ladders are still a thing even for daemons, there's apparently no deployment zone outside the walls for sorties or ability to build ditches, and there doesn't seem to be much race-specific options, the vast majority of changes are across the board. It's still a vast improvement and got me more hyped than any roster reveal, and the new minor settlement battles will also be nice as they use similar basic concepts as the new sieges, except without walls and with 360 degree layouts.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  7. #2207
    I like it.
    The rework seems to be quite enough for my liking.
    I wanted multilayered defences and the ability to put archers/siege weapons somewhere so they can be useful.

    Lets hope the AI can keep up.

    Just look at that one map with the walls and gate in front and a bridge right behind it to put artillery on. What a blast that will be to defend.

  8. #2208
    Epic! Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faldric View Post
    Yeah, so far they haven't exactly shown much that actually justifies a game 3. So far most of the stuff could have easily been DLC for game 2.

    Them being that tight-lipped really doesn't help. I really hope they start showing actual gameplay improvements. The races are nice, but we got plenty of them already. I am still waiting for the major selling points of this game.
    To be fair everyone said that about 2's announcement. But at this point I'm fairly happy 2 has earned it's sequel rights.

    In regards to the siege rework I mentioned this earlier when discussing on reddit.

    Your forces of defence are pre-set by the level of walls you have but always include basic units where an attacking force has no such restrictions.

    Exhausted high tier troops are still far better than fresh mid and low ones. It still doesn't stop the archer win by approaching the walls and shooting over. A bigger penalty on ladders and close defences (pitch and rocks melee can use).

    Attackers need to start further back to give wall defenders a a chance to make use of the approach as currently they're too close and approaching a wall takes a minute. No real damage is ever inflicted by the wall in the time they have. Archers need to be able to shoot over your melee defenders on the wall. Artillery on it is still needed.

    Otherwise regardless it's not wort defending the walls currently.

    The AI needs to be improved to use these defences that can be constructed so if you're attacking you can't just flatten the wall cannon oand sneak up to shoot over, killing everything milling on top or behind it by approaching 1 single point of least resistance.

    If you've ever watched a legendoftotalwar video it's so cheese to just chokepoint and ranged spam. I don't see the new changes stopping that unless the central point capture is in a wide open square that can't be blocked by sticking a narrow line of melee in the way so they can only attack 3 at a time.
    Last edited by Malania; 2021-10-11 at 05:54 PM.

  9. #2209
    I dont think that anything can beat ghosts floating up the ladders, but horrors are getting dangerously close.

  10. #2210
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    I dont think that anything can beat ghosts floating up the ladders, but horrors are getting dangerously close.
    I dunno why they can't just make some units crawl/hover up to the walls. It wouldn't look any jankier and at least make some sense.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  11. #2211
    Siege rework looks a little underwhelming compared to what I'd hoped it would be. Better than it was but I can't see the AI handling it well.

    On the other hand the interview has some interesting stuff, not the least the way they talk of Ind, Kuresh and especially Nippon (even if they did so in a wink wink nudge nudge way.)

  12. #2212
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Testiculos View Post
    Warhammer online had tzeentch, warhammer total war had tzeentch, dawn of war 3 had tzeentch. The one god that is never used is slaanesh. It is never ever featured , i think it is one of the most interesting because it deals with desires and excess. Which can be used for phsycological horror too.
    Each of the 4 gods has a chapter in Chaosbane, the ARPG. I actually enjoyed that game although i seem to be in the minority there. So you are fighting all kind of Slaanesh demons, including a Keeper of Secrets.
    But yeah, if you go by lore Slaanesh and Tzeentch are not really "i attack with my army" guys, they act more on subversion.

  13. #2213
    I am going to be honest - I had multiple walls in mind, not this, erm, "intermediate" approach. Still seems so silly when you take the map in the video you also somehow have taken the hugeass bastion wall behind it.
    Still wondering what they will do with AI though... It is incredibly silly shooting down cavalry inside the city from their own taken walls and the AI just takes it.
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  14. #2214
    I've skipped the past Total War: Warhammer games since I've been waiting for a 'complete' version of the game.

    So can someone explain how the 3 games work with each other, and how Total Warhammer 3 connects to this all? I imagine the campaigns will be different, but will all races be playable in some form through the 3rd game or would I have to have all 3 games?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #2215
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I've skipped the past Total War: Warhammer games since I've been waiting for a 'complete' version of the game.

    So can someone explain how the 3 games work with each other, and how Total Warhammer 3 connects to this all? I imagine the campaigns will be different, but will all races be playable in some form through the 3rd game or would I have to have all 3 games?
    If it works like for the second game (and no reason to think it won't), you need to own races/DLCs in their bespoke game to use them in the grand campaign, but they'll be around to fight whenever you own them or not. So for example if you have game 1 and game 3, you'll be able to use all game 3 races, as well as Empire, Vampire Counts, Greenskins, Dwarfs and the free DLC of Bretonnia, but you won't be able to use game 1 DLC races/units and all game 2 races (so Beastmen, Wood Elves, Warriors of Chaos, Norsca, High Elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast. Essentially treat the content from previous games as DLC for the third game. Yeah, in total it's hella expensive but it's a lot of content and the series is on sale periodically, the first one and its DLCs are usually around 50 if not 75% off and game 2 is well worth it as well. If you only get one actual DLC, I'd get the Tomb Kings one from game 2, it's the best race in the series so far IMO.

    We don't know exactly how the game 3 grand campaign will work, it won't be there on launch and they might switch things like victory conditions or the start locations of some Lords. But it'll be one big stonking map given that the game 1 + game 2 one is already huge.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  16. #2216
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I dunno why they can't just make some units crawl/hover up to the walls. It wouldn't look any jankier and at least make some sense.
    Especially since it's done like that in 3-Kingdoms, is it not?
    Is it related to the engine/game's age?

  17. #2217
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    If it works like for the second game (and no reason to think it won't), you need to own races/DLCs in their bespoke game to use them in the grand campaign, but they'll be around to fight whenever you own them or not. So for example if you have game 1 and game 3, you'll be able to use all game 3 races, as well as Empire, Vampire Counts, Greenskins, Dwarfs and the free DLC of Bretonnia, but you won't be able to use game 1 DLC races/units and all game 2 races (so Beastmen, Wood Elves, Warriors of Chaos, Norsca, High Elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast. Essentially treat the content from previous games as DLC for the third game. Yeah, in total it's hella expensive but it's a lot of content and the series is on sale periodically, the first one and its DLCs are usually around 50 if not 75% off and game 2 is well worth it as well. If you only get one actual DLC, I'd get the Tomb Kings one from game 2, it's the best race in the series so far IMO.

    We don't know exactly how the game 3 grand campaign will work, it won't be there on launch and they might switch things like victory conditions or the start locations of some Lords. But it'll be one big stonking map given that the game 1 + game 2 one is already huge.
    Oh my. Jeez, that'll be like hundreds of dollars of content right there. I really hope they manage to squeeze it all into an affordable massive bundle down the line. I've only got a passing interest in the Total War format, and I'm more interested in the game for the Warhammer Fantasy pre-'End Times' setting more than anything. A shame that Cathay is so well fleshed out here, and never really got any chance to shine on the table top as their own army. But I'm glad Creative Assembly has a lot more freedom to explore than Games Workshop is willing to dedicate for their tabletop.

    I'd really love to see them take on the Ogre Kingdoms and Ind, and possibly flesh out some Chaos Dwarf in some DLC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  18. #2218
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Especially since it's done like that in 3-Kingdoms, is it not?
    Is it related to the engine/game's age?
    It was like that in Shogun 2. 3K you needed ladders to climb the walls. And it made the most sense in Shogun since most forts had multiple levels and layers of defenses, in Warhammer there's only ever one layer of walls so there's no reason not to bumrush it with every infantry you got.

    @Triceron Yeah, getting everything from scratch will require you to spend hundreds. As I said however there are sales from time to time on Steam and elsewhere, and Warhammer DLC is very à la carte, unlike say Paradox games who tend to also have hundreds of dollars of DLC with the major ones affecting several core game mechanics no matter who, what and how you play. Warhammer DLC unlock Lords and units, that's it. If a race gets a new mechanic, it's part of a free update. They completely overhauled the campaigns of the Empire, Greenskins, Wood Elves and Beastmen in WH2, for example, and so long as you could access the factions you didn't have to spend a dime on the DLC that came bundled with the changes, that just unlocked the units.

    So if, for example, you mostly care about the Lizardmen, Dark Elves and Tomb Kings, all you really need to buy is game 2 and the Tomb Kings which, on sale, won't be that expensive for hours upon hours of content, plus you'll also access High Elves and Skaven with all the numerous free updates, new mechanics and Lords added to all those factions over patches. The rest will be locked to you but between game 3's 6 races on launch (7 with pre-order) and those, you won't lack for things to play anytime soon.

    As for the Ogres, there's a 99% chance they are the pre-order for game 3. CA isn't even trying to be subtle at hinting them anymore. Chaos Dwarfs are nigh universally assumed to be the first post-launch race added. Beyond that, who knows? In a recent lore dump they name dropped Ind, Khuresh, and remaining suspiciously tight-lipped around Nippon, plus they name dropped Hobgoblins a couple times as well. I strongly doubt all 4 make it in. Nippon and Hobgoblins have a decent shot if you ask me, but the Southern Realms/Dogs of War might also have their day and I strongly doubt WH3 will have five post-release races.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  19. #2219
    Why is the "AI Control" button sometimes not usuable in a field battle.
    Does it only work if I myself attack?

    I really want to play Bretonnia a bit more but I can't be arsed to cycle charge 10-20 cav units when I fight with 40 units.

  20. #2220
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Oh my. Jeez, that'll be like hundreds of dollars of content right there. I really hope they manage to squeeze it all into an affordable massive bundle down the line. I've only got a passing interest in the Total War format, and I'm more interested in the game for the Warhammer Fantasy pre-'End Times' setting more than anything. A shame that Cathay is so well fleshed out here, and never really got any chance to shine on the table top as their own army. But I'm glad Creative Assembly has a lot more freedom to explore than Games Workshop is willing to dedicate for their tabletop.

    I'd really love to see them take on the Ogre Kingdoms and Ind, and possibly flesh out some Chaos Dwarf in some DLC.
    Ogres is very likely to be the pre-order bonus for WH3 as they showed off Ogre mercenaries in the last WH2 patch.
    Based on the map locations and how it all fits together Chaos Dwarfs are practically assured to show up at some point.
    Ind has been hinted at? Can't remember off the top of my head.

    Each of the 3 games are a game onto themselves so you can get one your interested in and you can always expand later if you want.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

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