Anakin Skywalker was evil from the beginning

[eschatological]

The Jedi code was ridiculous and completely stupid. They also should have done a better job of monitoring their "chosen one" and making sure he wasn't being manipulated and whatnot. That said they also really shouldn't have even trained him in the first place. I'd say the majority of the blame falls on Qui gon Jinn for pushing so hard for his training. Then I'd blame Obi-Wan for continuing his training, and finally I'd say the Jedi order (particularly Yoda as the head) are the least at blame since they did say it was too dangerous but still caved to Obi-Wan and Qui gon's wishes.

I don't think you can blame Anakin at all for this one. He was a child when he joined the order and he basically had two options. He could remain a slave and have a miserable life or he could go off and become a Star Wars superhero. As an 8 year old boy which would you choose? Oh, and don't forget that Palpatine is the one who corrupted him in the first place. Now, I guess you could say that Anakin should have resisted more, and you'd be right, but I think there are a lot more people to throw blame on before we start blaming him.

Why was it ridiculous and stupid? It's mirrored on the lifestyles of many monastic orders, like Trappist and Buddhist monks. Many men have lived and died in those lifestyles.

[wishbone346]

Why was it ridiculous and stupid? It's mirrored on the lifestyles of many monastic orders, like Trappist and Buddhist monks. Many men have lived and died in those lifestyles.

There's a reason why the number of those orders has never been very high and why they've been declining more and more as time goes on. There's also a reason why those monastic orders have never accomplished anything worthwhile outside doing a little charity here and there. It's idealistic bull just like those that take religion way too seriously. There's nothing wrong with love and attachment. In fact those things are what drive humans to push further and further.

[eschatological]

Ummm, monks basically saved the written history of the world during the Dark Ages, produced some of the finest art known, wrote tons and tons of philosophy, and brewed some damn good alcohol.

To just dismiss a monastic lifestyle as "idealistic bull" seems to suggest to me you don't understand the purpose of them. I find it strange you would consider the Dalai Lama "worthless," for example. Now, in the Star Wars universe, I can understand how that clashes with them being warriors of a type, and even protectors of the Republic, so that's a whole different philosophical debate - how can you be a warrior order at the same time as a monastic order? The one asks you to immerse yourself in the vagaries of life, the other asks you to separate it. They're a contradiction. As Yoda says in TESB, "Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things," except those are specifically things relevant to "Warrior" types.

And again, like I said, the Jedi order didn't forbid love.

[wishbone346]

Ummm, monks basically saved the written history of the world during the Dark Ages, produced some of the finest art known, wrote tons and tons of philosophy, and brewed some damn good alcohol.

To just dismiss a monastic lifestyle as "idealistic bull" seems to suggest to me you don't understand the purpose of them. I find it strange you would consider the Dalai Lama "worthless," for example. Now, in the Star Wars universe, I can understand how that clashes with them being warriors of a type, and even protectors of the Republic, so that's a whole different philosophical debate - how can you be a warrior order at the same time as a monastic order? The one asks you to immerse yourself in the vagaries of life, the other asks you to separate it. They're a contradiction. As Yoda says in TESB, "Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things," except those are specifically things relevant to "Warrior" types.

And again, like I said, the Jedi order didn't forbid love.

I most definitely would consider the Dalai Lama "worthless" in the grand scheme of things. He hasn't done anything to further humanity. I'm not trying to say philosophy and brotherly love aren't things that should be treasured, they are, but in the grand scheme of things they're worthless. The people who shape this planet and the destiny of humanity are the ones that make technological advances. The ones that find ways to make life easier and more productive. Scientists, pioneers of industry, etc, these are the people that truly change the world and "matter". Religious leaders and philosophers are a dime a dozen. I'm not saying they don't have their place. I mean those sort of things definitely help bring people together so we can create the things that change the world. However, those things are also interchangeable. The Dalai Lama really doesn't do anything that others before him didn't. Granted I will give you the written word thing. However, much of that written word was just religious texts.

As for fighting monastic orders I think the closest thing we've ever had in the real world were the Knights Templar who were literally described as "warrior monks". In fact I believe I herd somewhere that Lucas was directly inspired by them when creating the Jedi order. That said it is a bit of a paradox, especially when you consider that being a warrior really requires one to be passionate and crave adventure. I guess on this topic we sort of agree lol.

"like I said, the Jedi order didn't forbid love" - They didn't forbid platonic love. However, romantic and sexual attachment are human nature. The Jedi deny a very foundation of what makes one human (or I guess Rodian, Wookie, or whatever else a Jedi can be). They flat out deny their members worldly attachment but if you don't have attachment to this world you really have no reason to fight for it or even care about its problems. If the Jedi were just a true monastic order that sat around braiding each others' hair and painting books then this wouldn't be as big a deal but they are literally playing "guardians of the galaxy". They are fighters by nature and without those connections to what it means to be human they can't really do that. They also constantly say that such emotion leads to the dark side but if that were the case then every living person who wasn't a Jedi in Star Wars would be evil. The Jedi just don't make sense overall hence "ridiculous and stupid".

[Deleted]

As for fighting monastic orders I think the closest thing we've ever had in the real world were the Knights Templar who were literally described as "warrior monks". In fact I believe I herd somewhere that Lucas was directly inspired by them when creating the Jedi order.

There are other examples of military monastic types - warrior monks (shohei) were a significant force in feudal Japan, for example. The monastic life style seems to fit quite well with the military one - segregated from normal society and family, disciplined and self sacrificing etc.

[Raven]

From what I understood Anakin still became the chosen one, he brought balance to the force, the jedi order weren't intrinsically good, they were just the embodiement of the light side of the force, some of their practises could be seen as negative, as with all things balance is good.

Just a side thought btw, Im not sure if this is canon or not, but I remember reading somewhere that the force always balances itself out, theres always an equal amount of power spread between users of light and dark, hence why the jedi were so diluted skill wise (it honestly seemed like Yoda was the only one at any of the siths level) and the sith had a handful of extremely powerful force users.

Mace Windu might not been stronger with the force, but feelt like a better and stronger sword fighter than Yoda.

[Raptor With a Saber]

Id assume that like in RL the lives in the star wars are all born "evil" and just trained to be good. Anakin was raised around evil and death and the fuck you attitude he never had a chance to brainwashed into the ideas of good or bad.

[Auxis]

Well, ObiWan sorta failed in the emotions department. He seemed to be a train-wreck over Anakin, thinking of him as a little brother and all that flaming volcano drama jazz.

[Zergy]

I'd just like to add that there was a deleted scene in Episode 1 where following the pod race, Anakin gets called a cheater by another kid. This angers him enough to jump on him and start beating him up. So it wasn't just present starting in his teen years.

[Toppy]

The thing is, the original Jedi order was built around emotional suppression. They eventually stop being people and end up simply being jedi. And when a jedi fell, it was typically because this suppression, and a jedi seldom fell when they were young. As a whole, the jedi were unstable and somewhat built around contradiction: they are meant to love and care for life, but at the same time they are supposed to suppress the majority of their emotions. They were easy to manipulate, since if you were a jedi with bad intentions, other jedi would overlook you, failing to realize that those in their order can fall. Hell, they have a room of fallen jedi, and its like a place of honor. They only see the fallen for what they were before the fall, refusing to see the things that led to their betrayal.

That said, the jedi were too lax with Annakin in some respects. Everyone knew of his attachment with various people and things, and how he had a notable anger problem and the only outlet he had was fighting. The clone wars only made it worse. They should have sat his ass down and took him from the fight: even though he was needed, if he suddenlly snapped... well we know how that turned out.

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There are other examples of military monastic types - warrior monks (shohei) were a significant force in feudal Japan, for example. The monastic life style seems to fit quite well with the military one - segregated from normal society and family, disciplined and self sacrificing etc.

The thing is, they never sustain themselves for long. They always rapidly hit a declining point.

Ummm, monks basically saved the written history of the world during the Dark Ages, produced some of the finest art known, wrote tons and tons of philosophy, and brewed some damn good alcohol.

To just dismiss a monastic lifestyle as "idealistic bull" seems to suggest to me you don't understand the purpose of them. I find it strange you would consider the Dalai Lama "worthless," for example. Now, in the Star Wars universe, I can understand how that clashes with them being warriors of a type, and even protectors of the Republic, so that's a whole different philosophical debate - how can you be a warrior order at the same time as a monastic order? The one asks you to immerse yourself in the vagaries of life, the other asks you to separate it. They're a contradiction. As Yoda says in TESB, "Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things," except those are specifically things relevant to "Warrior" types.

And again, like I said, the Jedi order didn't forbid love.

The monks who saved all those books aren't as pious and strong of will as you may think. Many monastic organizations are reknowned for their odd tendencies and vulgar behavior.

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Id assume that like in RL the lives in the star wars are all born "evil" and just trained to be good. Anakin was raised around evil and death and the fuck you attitude he never had a chance to brainwashed into the ideas of good or bad.

Being a slave can do that to someone.

he went slave>leaves family>is encouraged to do whatever he wants>finds a girl>disobeys his order from the get go>goes straight to war and is shown to have anger problems and attachment issues

[Duncanîdaho]

If you follow any of the Extended Universe lore (though it may not even be considered canon now, thanks to Disney) the New Jedi Order no longer prevents emotions and relationships, things of that nature. I would be far more inclined to believe that the Jedi Code of old was simply unrealistic, and was a flaw that was supposed to be highlighted in the story. It was never a case of the Jedi being perfect and the Sith being wrong. Bringing balance to the Force essentially meant eliminating both Orders, because both were effectively wrong. Having said that, I agree that Anakin always did appear unstable, and likely would have eventually found his way to the Dark Side with or without Sidious manipulating him. But if the Jedi were more open to all sides of the Force instead of shunning Dark Side powers, even that may not have mattered.

This man gets it. The Jedi had become a stagnant remnant of what they used to be and needed a kick in the ass. Their code had become far to strict over time and the passive reactionary ways they quick fixed conflicts had no foresight. Palaptine had to simply nudge and the dominoes started falling. In a lot of ways they had been setting up the Republic to fall over time for awhile without even realizing it. You can't solve every single major conflict for someone(The Republic) and then expect them to be able to manage themselves properly without you involved in everything. Kreia talks about this concept a lot in KOTOR 2. When you solve every conflict for someone, you prevent them from growing, learning and becoming stronger. The Jedi made the Republic weak and an easy mark for the Sith. On the sith side of things, the emperor was just becoming way to damn powerful and evil. Both needed a change.

So with all that being said, no Anakin Skywalker was not evil. Is a black hole, a forest fire or an extinction event(we humans rose to prominence through one) evil? He was the chosen one and as such was always destined to play both sides and wipe the slate clean so that both sides could finally once again reinvent themselves and evolve and be in balance. To say he is evil ignores all the amazingly good things he did as a Jedi, and vice versa. He was always a shade of grey and the fact that he had to be the chosen one can't be ignored. If he had say, Yoda's personality type, he would not of been able to do the things he had to do to bring true balance. Not the Jedi's or Sith's view of balance, but universal balance.

[Lothaeryn]

From what I have read about the synopsis about the book on the life of Darth Plagueis (Palpatine/Sidious' Master). Anakin was CREATED by the Sith.

Essentially, Plagueis conducted numerous experiments on the living force to try and coerce the force to be more dark sided. With the aid of his apprentice Sidious, he did succeed for a time, but as a result, the force acted out against it and created a powerful force sensitive that had enough power to re-create balance in the Force: Anakin Skywalker.

Anakin was destined to bring Balance to the Force because the Sith over reached their boundaries and the universe pretty much pushed back at them. Whether Anakin was truly destined to be a Jedi or Sith is anyone's guess, in the end, he existed solely to kill the Sith responsible for the imbalance and restore order.

Of course, all of this is now written off as unofficial lore now, so its a no mans land until new lore is canonized regarding Anakin's uniqueness in the force.

[Toppy]

From what I have read about the synopsis about the book on the life of Darth Plagueis (Palpatine/Sidious' Master). Anakin was CREATED by the Sith.

Essentially, Plagueis conducted numerous experiments on the living force to try and coerce the force to be more dark sided. With the aid of his apprentice Sidious, he did succeed for a time, but as a result, the force acted out against it and created a powerful force sensitive that had enough power to re-create balance in the Force: Anakin Skywalker.

Anakin was destined to bring Balance to the Force because the Sith over reached their boundaries and the universe pretty much pushed back at them. Whether Anakin was truly destined to be a Jedi or Sith is anyone's guess, in the end, he existed solely to kill the Sith responsible for the imbalance and restore order.

Of course, all of this is now written off as unofficial lore now, so its a no mans land until new lore is canonized regarding Anakin's uniqueness in the force.

I always kinda liked that, save for one thing. It relies on the force striving for balance, but the sith had been gone for hundreds if not thousands of years. the light dominated. and when the dark showed itself again, it got shafted right back again.

[Lothaeryn]

I always kinda liked that, save for one thing. It relies on the force striving for balance, but the sith had been gone for hundreds if not thousands of years. the light dominated. and when the dark showed itself again, it got shafted right back again.

Well in that case its because the Sith need to exist to some extent, and while the Force understands and accepts them existing, it isnt going to bend over and take it when essentially one side (Rule of Two ensures only two sith have all the power of the dark side at one time) tries to control the entirety of the universal force and tells it to accept it.

The Light Side usually prevails because it doesn't want anything more than peace, with the sith gone, it doesn't care what the force does, so long as the Sith do not return and try and mess shit up again. That however, leads to the Light being completely unprepared and incompetent for when Sith do reappear, which is case and point what happened to the Republic and the Jedi order during the Clone Wars.

EDIT: Also note, the Sith were never truly gone, they essentially were in hiding, even if the last Sith was killed, someone else would hear the whispers of the dark masters and learn the way of the Sith again one way or another.

[Duronos]

And here I am wondering if there aren't Dark Side users of the Force that don't go around just killing anything in their way that bothers them.

[Mayia]

In the movies anakin is a twat monkey and you cant like him as much as you might want to.
But yeah he did have problems and obiwan didn't spot them soon enough he wanted to play hero and free the slaves as he was a slave, he took satisfaction from it, which means he felt anger and hatred for those people.
The clone wars series did a much better job at making anakin a character who has a bag full of marbles as well as troubles, and he does a lot of good, but he really needed to spend more time with Mace or Yoda, even on the council (not a master though lol) there were masters who didn't trust him, who didn't like him and avoided him Mace was openly hostile towards him constantly.

But none of them did anything about it, they just looked down on people like quigon and felt superior without doing anything to bridge the divide.
If more of them had helped train "the chosen one" by saying that he could benefit from having more than one master he might have turned out better.

There was also the war and conflict with helped darken all jedi, But it was an immature young adult who didn't speak to his peers about what he was feeling who let pokes and prods from the lord of the sith further the gap between him and the jedi, but it was also the Jedi who saw this "Chosen one" and assumed he was perfectly fine and never pushed hard to get to know him and really talk.
As much as obi-wan and anakin were brothers it was only skin deep, Clearly there were many things they didn't talk about (obi-wans love life, or Quigons for that matter)

Not to mention its also Natalie portmans fault, for playing a pre-teen! but seriously episode 2 made me question padme's sense, She shares much of the blame never really thinking that breaking the jedi's rules means he'd be more likely to break larger ones, or watching his metal breaks and thinking.. oh the little boy just needs a hug.. then i'll shag him cause desperate stalkers get me going! lol.


--Edit--
I agree about the EU stuff where luke balances the jedi order better and the imperial knights can exist along side jedi, There have also been some Dark jedi and a hand full of sith who have not sought power just for the sake of it, and killed everyone who they didn't like.
Granted its mostly EU stuff but Lucas left a damn lot of holes the EU filled well, Disney should've at least read it all and decided from that point.

I think Dark siders maybe not all Sith but some of them could live amoung the jedi and imperial knights in a universe and there can be balance, Like in Babylon 5.
The Shadows believe evolution comes from conflict growing through war, Perhaps the universe feels the same in a small way.

[Dundebuns]

I don't think Anakin was properly represented due to the actors they got to play him, so it's difficult to judge whether he was always evil and didn't know it, or was genuinely 'turned'

[Val the Moofia Boss]

According to the prophecy very explicitly stated in the prequel trilogy, Anakin was destined to defeat the Sith once and for all. Note that the prophecy did not mention how; it just said that he would. That does not mean there was no control over what could've happened, though.

Remember, Jedi are trained as Padawans from a very young age, sometimes taken into the custody of the Jedi Order before they can even walk. Anakin was very old for a Padawan they began training him. The padawans had grown up in a black and white environment, raised to do be good-doers. Anakin all his life only saw the grey and evil; slavery, gang fights, and other bad things. He was, perhaps, corrupted in the sense that he wasn't pure enough to resist the temptations of the Dark Side. He was also naive in believing that he could do good through evil, when evil can, and will only, bring death and destruction in the end.

By the end of the original trilogy, Anakin had matured. Anakin had become tired. Tired of being a Dragon. Tired of the never ending chase. It wasn't wisdom or age that made him chose in the end to toss down his master, but it was that he no hate left to feed the Dark Side with. Being old... his hate was somewhat useless to him. He saw clarity in the end.

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Well, ObiWan sorta failed in the emotions department. He seemed to be a train-wreck over Anakin, thinking of him as a little brother and all that flaming volcano drama jazz.

Who wouldn't? He risked his friends, innocents, and his own life countless dozens of times for Anakin's sake. He invested time trying to pass down a legacy to him; to make Anakin better than he could ever be, like any good parent or master would. Then Anakin spit upon on all that; not only spit but defiled everything Obi Wan believed in and worked for.

[BloodSense]

Ive always felt that the light/dark sides of the force were meant as abstracts and were never meant to be taken so literally. A lot of characters mostly in the expanded universe often time fell to the dark, or were turned to the light, and sometimes back again. If you compare Jedi to the eastern religious sects that people are often fond of drawing parallels to, then there are no light and dark Jedi, it's what one chooses to do with the force that defines how the universe sees them. If my memory serves me right, the original dark jedi were members of the jedi order who were tired of suppressing their emotions and living like monks and the jedi orders response was less than favorable forcing them resort to more and more drastic means eventually culminating in a split from the order. I've always had a hard time swallowing the ideas that certain "powers" were only usable by light side, or dark side jedi, and I've always found it a better explanation that light side jedi refuse to train in things like lightening or the vampiric force powers more because they were seen as tools of the dark side.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Ive always felt that the light/dark sides of the force were meant as abstracts and were never meant to be taken so literally. A lot of characters mostly in the expanded universe often time fell to the dark, or were turned to the light, and sometimes back again. If you compare Jedi to the eastern religious sects that people are often fond of drawing parallels to, then there are no light and dark Jedi, it's what one chooses to do with the force that defines how the universe sees them. If my memory serves me right, the original dark jedi were members of the jedi order who were tired of suppressing their emotions and living like monks and the jedi orders response was less than favorable forcing them resort to more and more drastic means eventually culminating in a split from the order. I've always had a hard time swallowing the ideas that certain "powers" were only usable by light side, or dark side jedi, and I've always found it a better explanation that light side jedi refuse to train in things like lightening or the vampiric force powers more because they were seen as tools of the dark side.

It's not so much that the powers are limited to the Dark Side as much as they are triggered by using the Dark Side; hate gives one the power to wield say, Force Lightning. A good jedi wouldn't use force lightning because they don't possess the malicious qualities of a Sith user to channel their "dark side" into such ferocious power. Consequently, we've seen powers only the Light users can use, not necessarily because you have to be a good guy to use them, but because only light users typically possess the qualities to channel those powers. A hateful being isn't going to channel a friendly, helpful mend. Nor is a benevolent and just one able to channel a torturous, brutal killing spell.