Mythic raider seeking Holy spec help!

[Thirteen]

Those circumstances are actually more conducive for Serenity

Elaborate.

Thirteen show me your logs please.. I bet u dont bring any high numbers anyway.. Yes my guild plays with a disc, shammy, pally and a holy priest.
obviously u dont know your class saying sanctuary stance is shit.

Ah, youth.

[ceddya]

Elaborate.

To even see results from Serenity, your raid has to be taking constant damage or underhealing fights. You're just going to run into massive overhealing from your refreshed Renews otherwise. Likewise, having a Disc randomly throw out PW:S increases that risk too.

You can game this by giving strict healing assignments, but requiring such co-ordination for minimal benefit hardly seems worth it, not when Sanctuary offers similar sustained healing with much more flexibility.

If you're going to claim that Sanctuary is trash and that Serenity is the better option in general, you're really going to have to qualify that statement.

[Deleted]

Ah, youth.

Im 25 years. Atm rank 9 on allstar holypriest at warcraftlogs so i do know My class and understand the shit coming from you.

[Thirteen]

To even see results from Serenity, your raid has to be taking constant damage or underhealing fights. You're just going to run into massive overhealing from your refreshed Renews otherwise. Likewise, having a Disc randomly throw out PW:S increases that risk too.

I'd say it's the opposite actually. You're not going to be refreshing renews on the whole raid willy nilly. There's people that are actively taking damage throughout the encounter (both tanks, people soaking specific mechanics, etc), and Serenity will do a significantly better job at keeping them up than Sanctuary can ever hope to, especially the ones you hit with HWSer. And when the big damage is about to come out, 2xSerendipity PoH -> BH -> BH -> PoH offers a lot of burst, moreso if you throw HWSer into the mix. But for Sanctuary this won't be enough to heal up the burst because your second CoH won't be off cooldown and assuming you're not solo healing it, someone else will probably get to it before you. If you can't get 2-3 CoHs minimum out of it, it's just not worth sacrificing HWSer, especially since you won't be using HWSanctuary.

But Sanctuary does offer a lot more consistently good AoE healing. And on paper, this is great, but in practice it hasn't shown to work well, at least in Foundry. There's no fights apart from Blast Furnace and Kromog that justify you sacrificing your burst damage for sustained, especially when others already do that better. Gruul, Oregorger, Flamebender and H/F have basically no need for sustained healing. It's somewhat justifiable for Beastlord and Thogar's deforesters, but that's really it. Every other time, CoH is going to naturally come off cooldown before you even need it, so you might as well take the instant Flash Heal with +25% crit.

[ceddya]

I'd say it's the opposite actually. You're not going to be refreshing renews on the whole raid willy nilly. There's people that are actively taking damage throughout the encounter (both tanks, people soaking specific mechanics, etc), and Serenity will do a significantly better job at keeping them up than Sanctuary can ever hope to, especially the ones you hit with HWSer. And when the big damage is about to come out, 2xSerendipity PoH -> BH -> BH -> PoH offers a lot of burst, moreso if you throw HWSer into the mix. But for Sanctuary this won't be enough to heal up the burst because your second CoH won't be off cooldown and assuming you're not solo healing it, someone else will probably get to it before you. If you can't get 2-3 CoHs minimum out of it, it's just not worth sacrificing HWSer, especially since you won't be using HWSanctuary.

But Sanctuary does offer a lot more consistently good AoE healing. And on paper, this is great, but in practice it hasn't shown to work well, at least in Foundry. There's no fights apart from Blast Furnace and Kromog that justify you sacrificing your burst damage for sustained, especially when others already do that better. Gruul, Oregorger, Flamebender and H/F have basically no need for sustained healing. It's somewhat justifiable for Beastlord and Thogar's deforesters, but that's really it. Every other time, CoH is going to naturally come off cooldown before you even need it, so you might as well take the instant Flash Heal with +25% crit.

How many fights involve yourself and a couple of non-tanks taking constant damage for Serenity? The only fights where I would see Serenity being useful would be H&F, parts of Ka'graz and BH P3. Even then, it's not a clear cut advantage over Sanctuary.

Anyway, Sanctuary also offers the same burst healing as Serenity, and I think you're vastly overstating that difference especially once you factor in the 4-piece bonus. You do realize that with your PoH -> BH x2 -> PoH rotation, you can actually fit in the second CoH just after (an additional GCD) the second PoH, right? That's only possible if you're in Sanctuary.

Still, this is mostly applicable to this tier, we'll see if anything changes in the next.

[Kenyans]

ceddya don't bite anymore, we've already had this discussion remember

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-of-holy/page5

[base33]

Thirteen show your logs please. You don't sound very credible and it sounds like your butt hurt about your performance as holy. perhaps if you post your logs we can help you. I have no problems healing anything as a holy priest. only thing I wish holy had was a bit more tank healing utility. & Maybe a bit more Stack AOE healing ability.

The good thing about holy is I can output the same amount of raid heals no matter if the raid is stacked or spread out.

[Thirteen]

Thirteen show your logs please. You don't sound very credible and it sounds like your butt hurt about your performance as holy. perhaps if you post your logs we can help you.

I do just fine, thanks.

I have no problems healing anything as a holy priest. only thing I wish holy had was a bit more tank healing utility. & Maybe a bit more Stack AOE healing ability. The good thing about holy is I can output the same amount of raid heals no matter if the raid is stacked or spread out.

I have a bigger problem with the lack of utility than anything else.

[Deleted]

Wow, things got heated haha!

So, if I was to heal in Sanctuary, how would I go about it? The logs I linked in my first post show that my heals are kinda crappy and I was healing in Sanctuary there. Is it just a case of not enough PoM on CD casts/not running Cascade or should I also be using any other spells/talents which either don't feature in my logs or show that I haven't cast them enough?

Also, healing with a Disc is going to be pretty much all the time with my guild. My friend has just come back to raiding with us as as well as a Mistweaver, so he will also be in the comp. It will be Holydin/Disc/Shaman.Mistweaver and me. If we need to 5 heal for some reason, we will bring a Resto druid.

[Thirteen]

Wow, things got heated haha!

So, if I was to heal in Sanctuary, how would I go about it? The logs I linked in my first post show that my heals are kinda crappy and I was healing in Sanctuary there. Is it just a case of not enough PoM on CD casts/not running Cascade or should I also be using any other spells/talents which either don't feature in my logs or show that I haven't cast them enough?

Filler Renew, PoM on cooldown, CoH when necessary/on cooldown, Cascade as usual. I'm assuming you'll be running Mindbender too, which you'll wanna drop at ~80% mana, and on cooldown after that.

[Deleted]

Thanks a lot!

[base33]

Filler Renew, PoM on cooldown, CoH when necessary/on cooldown, Cascade as usual. I'm assuming you'll be running Mindbender too, which you'll wanna drop at ~80% mana, and on cooldown after that.

Again don't listen to this guy as he is only half right in just about everything he says.

assuming you have the appropriate spirit/trinkets you should have 0 mana issues as holy.
Surge of Light is a pretty huge.. and I would def use that over mindbender. Halo / Divine star is better choice than cascade. It procs more SOLs & spreads your mastery dot a lot more efficiently. Just remember when using halo. The further you're away from the target the greater the heal. so position urself accordingly.

[Thirteen]

Again don't listen to this guy as he is only half right in just about everything he says.

assuming you have the appropriate spirit/trinkets you should have 0 mana issues as holy.
Surge of Light is a pretty huge.. and I would def use that over mindbender. Halo / Divine star is better choice than cascade. It procs more SOLs & spreads your mastery dot a lot more efficiently. Just remember when using halo. The further you're away from the target the greater the heal. so position urself accordingly.

Since apparently everything I've said is dubious, explain that.

[base33]

Since apparently everything I've said is dubious, explain that.

Sure.

Here are my logs for Mythic Kromog
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=21
10 halos cast hit 257 times = 1.30m Heals..
AVG PER Halo = 25.7 hits for 130K

Here is one of the top Parsing Holy priests that use Cascade for Mythic Kromog (They 3 Healed it)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=3
7 Cascade casts for 187 hits 643.8k Heals.
AVG per cascade = 26.7 hits for 92K

As you can see Yes, cascade does hit for 1 extra target but halo does heal for more. Yes Cascade is a shorter cool down so it may seem like the better choice. But this why its not.

Cascade is Heavy RNG based. It can have wasted bounces on pets. (see below log). If it hits a pet that is unhealable it won't proc SOL.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=121148

Its difficult to time Cascade for a burst of raid AOE. As it takes a couple of seconds for cascade to hit some people (not even everyone). which means a lot of it will equate to over heal (or 0 heal)
Its very easy to time Halo for incoming raid damage. For example, kromog breath, Beastlord Pindown. Etc. You know who you're going to hit.

& to answer ur question directly. Try it out you'll see the difference. Halo pretty much = instant 2 procs of Surge of Lights. Sometimes on Blackhand I've even gotten 4+ procs when i expend the Flashes of light as soon as I get them. Free & Instant Flash of lights FTW

But if you do decide to 3 heal or have a heavy expendture of mana fight. Then I can see the justification for mindbender. But for Littlelu's purpose i would use SOL
Now I ask you to provide your armory and logs to validate your expertise

[Dierdre]

Then I can see the justification for mindbender.

I just can't believe we're still having this discussion. All three l45 talents are perfectly viable. I've been using Mindbender since WoD started (when cool kids didn't use mindbender) and I have gone OOM once, even with DPS trinkets and weapon enchant. Sure, you can start quoting farfetched 2-healer scenarios, but for all intents and purposes, for a normal 4-5 healer group, all three talents are perfectly functional.

[base33]

anything is functional. Hell I could disable all my talents and be fine. The OP wants to increase his output. One way to increase output is SOL. Assuming he is doing good with his mana consumption. Obviously if he finds himself mana hungry. Then switching to mindbender is ok.

But, my point is if you heal correctly you don't need the extra mana regen from mindbender. Therefore, you can get more output w/ SOL.

[Deleted]

Hmmm okay, thanks for that .

One (hopefully last)! question - should I be trying to use Heal and Binding Heal a lot, or should I be using Prayer of Healing after 2 FH casts (if needed) for AoE and filling with Renew rather than Heal?

[Dierdre]

Hmmm okay, thanks for that .

One (hopefully last)! question - should I be trying to use Heal and Binding Heal a lot, or should I be using Prayer of Healing after 2 FH casts (if needed) for AoE and filling with Renew rather than Heal?

I do it on an oh-shit level basis:

Low oh-shit level: Blanket renews on probable damage takers, PoM on CD.
Medium oh-shit-level: Surgical Heals and CoH while keeping renews and PoMs.
Moderate to High oh-shit level: CoH on CD, PoH, Binding-Heals, Flash Heals, Cascade.
High Oh-shit level: Same as above, just smash buttons harder.

Plan your lightwell usage depending on the fight, and coordinate Hymn with your healing team.

[Thirteen]

Sure.

Here are my logs for Mythic Kromog
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=21
10 halos cast hit 257 times = 1.30m Heals..
AVG PER Halo = 25.7 hits for 130K

Here is one of the top Parsing Holy priests that use Cascade for Mythic Kromog (They 3 Healed it)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=3
7 Cascade casts for 187 hits 643.8k Heals.
AVG per cascade = 26.7 hits for 92K

Cascade is Heavy RNG based. It can have wasted bounces on pets. (see below log). If it hits a pet that is unhealable it won't proc SOL.

But you realise you also counted those hits, right? Cascade actually hit 180 people in 7 casts, and Halo hit 219 people in 10 casts. So that's 25 hits/cast for Cascade, and 21 hits/cast for Halo, rounded down, and that includes the 33 times Halo hit Wild Imps...

So yeah, this is somewhat sample biased because it's just 2 logs being compared (ie not applicable to every situation - you can probably find logs where Halo is superior to Cascade, but you're far more likely to find the opposite, like this one), and it's on Kromog which is one of the few fights where you can get away with Halo over Cascade, if such a fight even exists. Do it on pretty much any other fight and you're likely to run into very different results, favoring Cascade (or even DS). You also can't consider spells' heal per cast - obviously Halo's will be significantly higher, that's the point. That's why it costs half your mana pool and has a 40s cooldown vs Cascade's 25s. So yeah you're able to use Cascade almost twice as frequently at a fraction of the cost for more SoL procs and more HPS/HPM, but less HPCast, because again, that's the idea behind spells with different cooldowns and manacosts.

Now I ask you to provide your armory and logs to validate your expertise

Yeah I'm not gonna do that. Call my expertise fishy as much as you'd like, I'm not gonna do that and it has nothing to do with my ranks, which for what it's worth are around the 50 percentile range. There's also more to be said about this than "omg pro top heeps so pro"

Also, healing with a Disc is going to be pretty much all the time with my guild. My friend has just come back to raiding with us as as well as a Mistweaver, so he will also be in the comp. It will be Holydin/Disc/Shaman.Mistweaver and me. If we need to 5 heal for some reason, we will bring a Resto druid.

Isn't that 5 already?

[Deleted]

Yeah, it seems I am unable to count haha! Well... those 5 of us are the main healing team, so that will be pretty much our set up. Just sometimes we have a Druid in, instead of one of us. People get rotated about a bit for raid comp/loot needs . But Disc always gets a spot and when I joined he was already a core raider, so this is the reason I am having to learn Holy .