Anime Thigh Thread II

[BloodyAngel12]

[video=youtube;XeDM1ZjMK50]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeDM1ZjMK50[video]

Are you denying the Saviour of Anime? /Kappa

[Shinzai]

I've been wondering about this for a while now and I think there might be some people in here that can help me out with this:
I remember seeing an anime on evening/late night TV (I think it must've been MTV or Viva) when I was a kid, so late 90s to 2005 at most. It was a scene of two characters, supposedly women, facing off in front of a japanese-style pavilion or the like at night, I think I remember there being snow too. Both were wearing rather traditional clothing if I recall correctly. The fight ended with one character thrusting their hand through the chest of their opponent. There was a brief shot of their blood-covered hand sticking out of the other character's back.

This is a really hazy memory but it left an impression on me as a young viewer. I tried looking at the anime that aired on those TV stations around that time before and didn't find anything that looked like it might be it. Maybe you guys have some ideas.

Just to verify, what do you mean by "traditional clothing"? For some reason, it sounds like Cyber City Oedo 808 to me:



Aeon Flux is another possibility, but the art-style is so unique that you'd probably have remembered that specifically:



Actually, just to verify, since Sesto mentioned Inuyasha, I remembered there was a scene like that:



(At the 5:00 mark if it doesn't jump there)

The scene is at night and fulfils most of your descriptions requirements.

[Shinzai]

Forgot this even existed.

Who could forget that amazing English dub though?

[Shinzai]

Yep, that's definitely a dub. Sad that I've seen both the dub and the sub...
I might need to rewatch some Benten clips lol Or Merill or whatever he was called.

I only ever watched the dub. I never felt a need to watch it subbed after that.

[Hotmail]

Attack on Titan 37 - Beautiful animation. I loved the part when Historia launches herself at a no-name Titan.

Some nice closure for the main character, too. I'm just a tad disappointed at how short the season was, considering how long we had to wait.

S2 was off to a bit of a poorly paced start but, all in all, I'm just as hyped for what's to come as I was at the end of S1.

[Hotmail]

Have they revealed why there are dinosaurs in the OP yet?

There has been dinosaurs and insects in the opening theme but not in the actual anime.

Although, looking at Eren's new power, I have a feeling that S3 is going to have to escalate purty fast, since regular titans aren't much of a threat anymore. I'm guessing he won't be able to command animals?

[Neichus]

Boku no Hero Academia E25: My initial reaction to the episode was that of disappointment... but the more I think about it, the better the episode was: [I]none[/I] of the "big three" got what they wanted out of the tournament, and the final fight was disappointing for the viewer, just as it was for Bakugo. This show is great. Thank you for your hard work! Plus Ultra!

I thought it was fairly satisfying. The true climax fight already happened. No need to try and continually one-up that.

Attack on Titan 37 - Beautiful animation. I loved the part when Historia launches herself at a no-name Titan.

I felt like the last episode was all over the place in tone. I wasn't sure what they wanted me to feel with the rapid alternations between hopelessness, rallying, confessions, and desperation. But I did snip a few of Historia:





- - - Updated - - -

I didn't think they would be lol Was just such a weird thing to see in the OP.

Out of curiosity, where did the anime actually end, 'cos I haven't watched it.

They rescued Eren from Laurel and Hardy and he found out he can command the titans. Historia and Ymir split up, with the latter rejoining the mothership. They've figured out that the titans might be human. Last scene is of Hohenheim watching from the back of the giant monkey.

[bals]

I thought it was fairly satisfying. The true climax fight already happened. No need to try and continually one-up that.



I felt like the last episode was all over the place in tone. I wasn't sure what they wanted me to feel with the rapid alternations between hopelessness, rallying, confessions, and desperation. But I did snip a few of Historia:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mYNHcsL.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/HaIbUkt.jpg[IMG]

your first img isn't working for me but i've been having problems with imgur lately

I didn't think they would be lol Was just such a weird thing to see in the OP.

Out of curiosity, where did the anime actually end, 'cos I haven't watched it.

titan s2 ending they get away from reiner and the other guy. ymir leaves with them. eren controls titans. shows erwin and levi talking some afterwards

i'm still waiting for the dinosaurs too.

[Neichus]

your first img isn't working for me but i've been having problems with imgur lately

titan s2 ending they get away from reiner and the other guy. ymir leaves with them. eren controls titans. shows erwin and levi talking some afterwards

i'm still waiting for the dinosaurs too.

Hrm, my last imgur upload had problems as well for the review, although people said that should only happen on large sets. Our summaries are humorously similar.

[bals]

Hrm, my last imgur upload had problems as well for the review, although people said that should only happen on large sets. Our summaries are humorously similar.

hey I even thought about hohenheim as well!

aot s2 ending we both forgot eren totally not kissing mikasa

[Neichus]

aot s2 ending we both forgot eren totally not kissing mikasa

But Eren did offer to buy her more ratty clothes in the foreseeable future. Watch her swoon at that.

[Shinzai]

I had this question last night in Discord, but I wanted to post it here for further consideration:

"Would it be an accurate statement to say that detailed nudity and gore have decreased in anime in the last few decades?"

For example, while there is certainly no shortage of skin in anime, there is very little in the way of anatomy (nipples, hair, etc.). Similarly, while blood sprays are at an all-time high, the actual depiction of bones and organs being damaged is rare (I can only think of a few scenes in Attack on Titan, and that is on the titans rather than the humans). I compare this to many of the scenes I encounter in older anime (especially 90s) in which it is not uncommon to have an uncensored breast or exposed bone, even in series which do not aspire to be sexual or graphic.

Below is a long explanation on why I am interested in this question.

Spoiler: 

TLDR thesis: Between 1998 and 2008 anime had a golden age. This was, at least in part, due to a basic self-confidence in Japan's own ethos. Since then it has been watered down as further Western sensibilities percolate into their society, creating incoherent extremes of expression. The decrease in graphic nudity and violence is not directly responsible for a reduction in quality, but serves as a general indicator of what has transpired.

Detailed version: The reason this has been on my mind is because as I have been looking over my lists, trawling for new series, and generally contemplating the content of anime in recent years it jumped out at me that there seems to be an unusual surge of high quality in the late 90s and early-mid 00's. This has led me to wonder if anime did not experience a "golden age" during that time.

I want to be clear about what I mean by "golden age" so that my musings are not misunderstood. I do not mean that anime is going downhill, getting worse, or dying as we speak. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but that is irrelevant to my question. What I am focusing on is the idea that there was a temporary elevation in quality between the years ~1998 and ~2008 (porous estimate). I want to emphasize this because I am not claiming that old is good and new is bad. I am saying that, just like many other mediums in art, it had a heyday and that we are no longer in it. I also want to emphasize that I am not arguing nothing good has come out since ~2008. Clearly there has. I am focusing on the quantity of said productions.

I am confident that this is not out of nostalgia, for I didn't watch most of those series as they aired. I am only discovering them years later. Similarly, I don't think this can be accounted for purely by selection bias: that we remember the best and forget the worst as time goes on. This second statement is subjective, as it is based off a comparison of my scores for series pre-2008 and post-2008. I notice that all my 10s (technically S2 Mushishi is later) and a significant majority of my 9's come approximately 1998 to 2008. If it were just selection bias, I would expect to see an equal distribution through time of high-rated series, but a surge in low-rated ones in recent years. Again, yes, I'm aware this measurement method has significant weaknesses based on personal preference. But as you all know, I do have a high opinion of myself and have to express some confidence in my judgement.

So what does all this have to do with violence and nudity? If anything, given my usual standards one would think I would welcome such a reduction. My thought process is to wonder if part of the reason anime did well during this era was because it had a confidence in its own "culture." Japan has a strange culture that I do not pretend to fully understand. But what I do grasp of it, it seems to have an underlying ethos of sexual freedom/expression/naturalness that has not been entirely extinguished by the importation of Western values. Similarly, the depiction of true gore was not just for shock value, but again a more natural and realistic approach to what happens when people are grievously disfigured. This has naturally led many people in the West to consider anime excessively sexual and violent; whether this "excessive" is a fair judgement I will not say, but it did seem to be more in line with Japanese sensibilities.

However, in recent years these tendencies have gone underground. I can only speculate that this is due to a sort of further Westernization of the culture as the internet and true globalization have taken hold. Again, whether this is good or bad is another topic. But what is undeniable is that Western culture is itself riddled with inconsistencies, and when laid on top of another culture with its own idiosyncrasies it creates an incoherent mess. Showing massive amounts of blood pooling around a body is fine, but you'll be damned if you show even a hint of intestine. Similarly, have all the lascivious and stimulating sexual scenes you want, but a naked girl in a hot spring is a corrupting influence.

The problem this creates is two-fold in my view:
1) It suppresses their own aesthetic. It leads to an attempt to copy and please a standard which is not native, and so cannot be done with the same degree of elegance. It is imitation without comprehension.

2) It marginalizes the original tendencies, which puts them under a fetishistic pressure. That is, the culture still has that more flexible sensibility toward sex (I don't want to say "open", because I don't think that's accurate). However, when herded into a corner and denied proper expression for incomprehensible reasons, it tends to gush out luridly like a geyser. So rather than having casual nudity in anime, you have a tendency toward the squeaky clean (Western) coupled with a degenerate upwelling of the most revolting fanservice. I think this is less true for violence, but still noticeable that there now only crop up a few "graphic" series, and the rest have diluted their violence to be less shocking.

So in other words, there is a tendency to subconsciously please an alien aesthetic as well as an imbalance that leads to series being reflexively extreme in their depictions. It is overly-expressive and strangely omissive at the same time, but neither of these leads to true quality. It is notable that the few series I do mark as significant since 2008 (Psycho-Pass, Shinsekai Yori) are those that are at home with their graphic violence and open sexuality, respectively. This doesn't mean that sex and violence make quality, but that being at home with your own ethos does.

In summary, my speculation is that anime experienced a golden age of expression where several serendipitous elements came together, not the least among them a normal expression of Japanese culture. Given time this ethic was undermined by other influences, and anime lost its way trying to please a new and poorly understood sense of appropriateness. This caused it to lose some of its artistic and exploratory edge as it now found itself on uncertain artistic grounds, resulting in the production of safer, tamer, yet more extreme, series that we see today.

p.s. I must remark that I am not trying to account for every single change in anime production with this hypothesis. There are trends in the industry which are entirely separate, and which may be significantly more important. My goal is not to dismiss these. If anything, I think production methods have improved in many ways, such that today the anime industry is vastly more proficient at producing "refined trash", as opposed to the simple "trash" of yesteryear. However, this is a different topic and not one that I was focusing on with my musings.

I've been debating for a few hours over how to respond to your post, so I'll just drift back and forth over various parts of it and try to answer in a meandering fashion, as it's hard to give a singular conclusion or explanation for it all.

Spoiler: 

The main reason however, is something I've touched on a few times before in this chat thread and the previous one though: It's mostly down to the "anime crash" that occurred between roughly 2006-2009 and the build up to it from 2000-2006.

For a partial explanation that I gave on the subject:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post35608066

For someone else's insights on the subject:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-killed-t...try-1501880696

http://www.rightstufanime.com/anime-...story-of-anime

For raw figures and information on the sales over the past decade or so:

http://aja.gr.jp/english/japan-anime-data

(Just download the 2016 industry report as it has comparison data for the past 15 years or so)

A list of how many anime shows were pumped out each year:

1990　50
1991　39
1992　62
1993　30
1994　38
1995　40
1996　46
1997　50
1998　82
1999　89
2000　64
2001　95
2002　95
2003 111
2004 128
2005 127
2006 181
2007 159
2008 147
2009 146
2010 130
2011 138
2012 155
2013 187
2014 210

When going through the statistical data and anecdotes, it becomes clear that essentially, the anime industry was booming towards the end of the 90's and most of the Japanese companies producing anime decided to cash in hard on the constant uptrend. They did this at the cost of quality and respect for their own audiences.

As you can see from the above figures (just the years + number of anime made per year), in 2006 more anime was pumped out in that year than ever would be until 7 years later. The anime that were pumped out were mostly absolute trash. And I don't mean the usual 'churr durr, this animu is trash' type trash, I mean genuinely terrible stuff, that wouldn't be watched or enjoyed by even the most hardcore fans. Between 2001 and 2006, the generalisation of 'moe' and 'harem' anime was pretty much solidified. Harem and moe anime, with same-face girls copy pasted with different colour hair became a joke even in the West, satirised even on TV shows where the normal audience would have little to no exposure to anime. It's a fact that some of the worst anime ever made came out during this period in particular.

Now that's not to say that there weren't any good shows, there were, however, they were few and far between compared to the sheer quantities of crap they were surrounded by. (To finally get around to your original violence topic) Guts and gore no longer sold any where near as well as easy going harem anime and generic shounen works. So anime studios were just spewing out knock-offs of superior works, cheap and badly made visual novel adaptations and other crap that pandered to the most base of interests among otaku. The need for well drawn, high quality art went out of the window, when things like Kanon, Negima and Lovely Idol could be pumped out fairly effortlessly.

The majority of the truly violent anime that came to represent anime as a more adult media came out in the late 80's and continued to be made until the late 90's. The amount of anime with notable levels of violence or more adult content in general drop off severely during the early-mid 2000s. Outside of fairly fringe, or experimental anime, you rarely see them during this point in time. The whole industry was more focused on hitting larger target audiences, with easier anime to mass produce and make a quick buck on.

By the end of 2006, despite a number of great anime coming out that year, a whole array of anime distributors and consequently studios crashed and ceased to exist, or compressed their businesses and tried to recoup from the sheer fact that, despite almost 50 more anime shows than usual being made that year, sales barely changed in Japan and dropped in the West. This is when people realised the anime bubble had burst and the Japanese owners of the various anime properties started to sweat.

It's in 2008 and onwards, more so in 2010, that we start to see the overall quality of anime increase greatly, as more care and thought is put into actual shows and making sure they'll appeal to a large, but far more specific audience. Harem shows are now a constant, but they're on the back burner, normally being side projects or having minimal budgets. There are exceptions to this rule, normally regarding visual novels and manga that have sold very well. Light novels also become far more of a corner stone in the creation of anime and we see at least a decade of light novel led sales and series. Violent anime is still dotted around here and there, but it's generally very few and far between, with a desire for strong 'teen' equivalent certifications far more appealing than 'adult' ratings.

Anyway. The violence that you see in those mid 2000s anime is fairly tame compared to what was present in the 80's and 90's anime that were popularised. During this period, anime that is now strictly considered 'hentai' was far more mainstream. In the West, anime was viewed at that point in time as being very muchly an adult form of entertainment. Tits and ass were standard faire, even in teen rated anime, drawn in far more gritty styles than the current computer shaded average. Tentacle rape was a media buzzword and hyper violence was associated by proxy with anime. If anything, the 00's were fairly lightweight compared to the 80's and 90's for such content.

It all comes down to the simple matter that people wanted to make more money with anime and so it transformed over time into its young teen friendly style that is currently present today.

[Neichus]

I've been debating for a few hours over how to respond to your post, so I'll just drift back and forth over various parts of it and try to answer in a meandering fashion, as it's hard to give a singular conclusion or explanation for it all.

Thank you for your detailed and in depth response. I was eagerly anticipating your reply and it did not disappoint.

I'm guessing my altered-sensibilities theory is dwarfed by actual market forces. Oh well, it was a fun thought experiment.

[icedwarrior]

I thought it was fairly satisfying. The true climax fight already happened. No need to try and continually one-up that.

First off, I want to reiterate that I am not only cool with what happened, but that I think this is the superior outcome to the fight; my disappointment (with the episode as a whole) was only as I initially watched it. Having said that, I still maintain that the fight itself was not satisfying, and that's the point.Todoroki launched his initial attack when the fight started, and threw Bakugo over his shoulder (not using his ability) once. Those are the TWO times he attacks in the fight. That is not satisfy​ing. After watching the Ururuka vs. Bakugo fight (my favorite fight of the series by far), and Midoriya vs. Todoroki fight, I expected more of a fight when I initially watched it. While I didn't expect it to be a one-up, I did expect somewhat of an actual fight amongst two of the most powerful characters of the show. Introspection and self-doubt I get, but that hasn't, and shouldn't, stop him from using is ice powers.

[BloodyAngel12]

Imgur is just being a shitter.

[Shinzai]

Thank you for your detailed and in depth response. I was eagerly anticipating your reply and it did not disappoint.

I'm guessing my altered-sensibilities theory is dwarfed by actual market forces. Oh well, it was a fun thought experiment.

Actually, I wouldn't wholly write off your overall idea. Sorry that I didn't handle that side of it so much in my explanation.

Spoiler: 

I would say that the commercial/marketing side of things did adversely effect the production of anime as you describe it, simply due to the desire for a wider consumer base. However, I would say that there is still an undertone or at least constant interest in creating more questionable and dark anime (which led to the whole stupid 'edgy' meme). The propagation of moe anime certainly crippled a lot of the interest in more poignant and adult orientated pieces, but when they do get released, they're often the dark horses of a season. They don't sell as well, because interest has been muffled, but they tend to be extremely strong with their potential fan bases.

Some examples:

Texhnolyze
Paranoia Agent
Gantz
Gunslinger Girl
Hell Girl
Madoka Magica
Tokyo Ghoul
Attack On Titan
Sidonia No Kishi

However, even with the existence of anime such as the ones above, the overall trend has been a definitive move away from violent anime. On the flipside, violent manga is still as strong as ever. There are many extremely popular, heavily violent or adult/stylised manga out there, but a lot of them will probably never see the light of day as an actual anime. So I do have to question whether tastes have actually changed, or if the 'moe-era' just completely changed the landscape of anime fandom.

I also can't discount the existence of things such as Pokemon, Dragonball Z and Digimon, which also helped shape the anime landscape to a huge degree towards the end of the 90's. Millions of children grew up with those shows in the late 90's, while their older brothers and such were delving into early US runs of Cowboy Bebop and similar shows. So we have a generation that have grown up with cute, hyperactive and brightly coloured characters and expect as such from the shows they want to watch. In the West, cartoons, whether anime or otherwise were always regarded as a kid's thing, aside from the very adult-orientated shows that first made their way to America in the 80's and 90's.

These days, we have a far more mixed and wide-ranging fare of shows to delve into or check out. Most of them have been some what softened around the edges, but we do still get the likes of Corpse Party, Hellsing Ultimate, Shigurui and so on. The market, if anything, is just far broader than it ever used to be and to a large extent, we have that 2006 crash to thank for it.

Due to this, I would suggest that the public viewpoint on anime and its relations to violent or adult content have shifted over time due to numerous factors, aside from the effects of specific sales figures.

Addendum: Some additional further reading:

http://www.rightstufanime.com/anime-...story-of-anime

[Zatheyll]

Finally through hell week, 90 hours of work in one week. It is time for anime catch up in my time off.

Can't wait to finish SnK though. Historia is my everything.

[Neichus]

Actually, I wouldn't wholly write off your overall idea. Sorry that I didn't handle that side of it so much in my explanation.

Spoiler: 

I would say that the commercial/marketing side of things did adversely effect the production of anime as you describe it, simply due to the desire for a wider consumer base. However, I would say that there is still an undertone or at least constant interest in creating more questionable and dark anime (which led to the whole stupid 'edgy' meme). The propagation of moe anime certainly crippled a lot of the interest in more poignant and adult orientated pieces, but when they do get released, they're often the dark horses of a season. They don't sell as well, because interest has been muffled, but they tend to be extremely strong with their potential fan bases.

Some examples:

Texhnolyze
Paranoia Agent
Gantz
Gunslinger Girl
Hell Girl
Madoka Magica
Tokyo Ghoul
Attack On Titan
Sidonia No Kishi

However, even with the existence of anime such as the ones above, the overall trend has been a definitive move away from violent anime. On the flipside, violent manga is still as strong as ever. There are many extremely popular, heavily violent or adult/stylised manga out there, but a lot of them will probably never see the light of day as an actual anime. So I do have to question whether tastes have actually changed, or if the 'moe-era' just completely changed the landscape of anime fandom.

I also can't discount the existence of things such as Pokemon, Dragonball Z and Digimon, which also helped shape the anime landscape to a huge degree towards the end of the 90's. Millions of children grew up with those shows in the late 90's, while their older brothers and such were delving into early US runs of Cowboy Bebop and similar shows. So we have a generation that have grown up with cute, hyperactive and brightly coloured characters and expect as such from the shows they want to watch. In the West, cartoons, whether anime or otherwise were always regarded as a kid's thing, aside from the very adult-orientated shows that first made their way to America in the 80's and 90's.

These days, we have a far more mixed and wide-ranging fare of shows to delve into or check out. Most of them have been some what softened around the edges, but we do still get the likes of Corpse Party, Hellsing Ultimate, Shigurui and so on. The market, if anything, is just far broader than it ever used to be and to a large extent, we have that 2006 crash to thank for it.

Due to this, I would suggest that the public viewpoint on anime and its relations to violent or adult content have shifted over time due to numerous factors, aside from the effects of specific sales figures.

Addendum: Some additional further reading:

http://www.rightstufanime.com/anime-...story-of-anime

You actually linked that last night in your collapse. I enjoyed reading it, as I had no idea anime extended as far back as it did, or that it was imported to the west (well, US at least) for so long. I thought of anime has an 80s+ phenomenon with importation only starting in the 90s...not a 50-60s phenomenon that was exporting from the beginning.

I find what I am wanting is something that challenges me to think about it, and nothing does that of late in anime. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place.

[Pejo]

Been catching up on S2 of Bahamut, just finished 9 - I love this show and universe. Nina is a fucking boss as well. One minor complaint: I miss Favaro's dubbed VA, he was great.

[Schirmy]

Albeit I'm watching too many anime at once, started a series called RahXephon. Consensus is split that it's either a NGE rip-off or pays homage to it. No opinion on that right now, but the first episode was very good, in my opinion. Apparently singing is a crucial plot point? The mecha designs seem rather peculiar and divergent from what you'd usually see (varying upon mecha animes, of course).