1. #1
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Feb 2015

    Post 1 message for each person, topic without debate (could you?)

    What I understand by that: 1 message - covering your concerns/interests and offer about them in game. It may be something simple and concise if you don't care about the rest, but maybe with a complex structure and very detailed with sections (I should say that I fail to read it all ), can be small entertaining review that reveals it as a story, can be a message about your leave, but only if there will be written why you doing it and how (if could) to stop you. But only one message per person. Could you do it? And next time when you are asked about your thoughts you can be proud to link it (as well as if you need to specify desired section of it), and people can go and read thoughts of others without discussion. This doesn't mean that you should write and forget about it, message could (even better if so) to be relevant. But here, your, it will be only one.
    What For? - For yourself (or you think that more simple go to each of many similar topics and write the same things?). Besides, it’s not so easy to answer questions (What? Where? Why?) without prepare. Not every one of you will be able to formulate it now. But you don't be afraid to try.

    Now I'll try to explain as much as possible and show how it could be with include as much as possible of all what I have now listed (people, with whom I spoke at this forum, won't let me lie, that it's exactly my "problems/interests" what I'll discuss in it). If you did not hesitate then can specify your game experience.

    Forum, unfortunately, doesn’t support *spoilers-insertion* (a fortiori insertion in insertion, such as on a trackers), and it’s not so easy to hide/open/divide information into sections for comfort reading.

    Because I've seen a lot of different opinions on every fact of following description of issue, and I respect other people's opinions, I just confidently and objectively note that text below is only my humble opinion and it's not reflects everyone thoughts (i.e. with something you can agree, something - not, and it is your right, but at least I'll try to interest/entertain you).

    First login: January 2007
    Last login: 30 of April 2015
    (5 characters)
    (black parts are less important)

    This message had to contain another content - bad (re-e-e-ealy bad), but I don’t like such kind of tales, moreover, circumstances have changed somewhat since then...
    1. Models (need full complianceanimation (skeleton) / emotions (inability and basic mobility) / detailed drawing (relevance and adequacy of make-up, color, shape, ratio). Proposals (classical animation as an option for new models or their detailed rebuilding / anger management as an element of customization/adequate revamp/displaying models jointly (classic + new)) and finally, we need more options in customization stuff (+++++++).
    2. Flame a little about where WoW goes, and what to do now. We should have balance of (complexity =?= accessibility), LFR / LFG(?), flights (not a problem, but lack of imagination and creativity), garrisons (?), apexis (bad management) and more RPG stuff.

    + A little separate stuff about human females faces. Also about Fur and Feathering art + some stuff about environment.
    Classic struggle. Animations'(effects) discussions. Also - Hogger.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    So, little backstory. Officially, I was playing from beginning of TBC. I was playing myself in clover, while at the end of LK did get into an interesting group of players. They were "on tour" through towns and villages of my realm, putting interesting scenes about their characters (as PvP-oriented player, I had a row with their guards: their representatives of my fraction contacted with me and asked not to interfere, explaining that it was only setting and group are RP-players). I liked it, everything was new and interesting. I questioned their representative and, subsequently, we became good friends with them (one of them even became my girlfriend, but it's a long story (longer than WoD, Pandas and half Cata together) so I skip it). All would be nothing, but then happened something unpleasant.
    Blizzard, conference room.
    People, we decided to make new player's models - what are your suggestions?
    1st. Another concept art!
    2nd. Make changes to animation!
    3d. How about we use all classic concepts and just add good texture polishing? *angry look*<<window breaking>>*falling*
    It so happened that this has affected my friends performances (at that time they already had 25 people, they quarreled a little, for not able to agree with other groups (strong, tough society was divided), and in order not to get stuck in debate, made an attempt, through mechanism of internal reviews and proposals to solve these problems, if not in a bad way (assist a more detailed approach for revamp classic models), than in a good (++) (it was one and a half months before 6.1). Then there was a 6.1, which this group is regarded as a slap in face and they went on a private server... kind of, huh? They didn't need much of content, even if they sometimes went on raids (often for RP-loot and transmogrification) and BG (you should to know concepts of defense and attack for RP-ing on PVP servers) to have some fun/achievements/reputation, and Blizzard still found how spoil a game for them. By that time I already was very strained because I would, definitely, play characters on high settings and with good polishing textures, but they suddenly turned into not mine (some of them particularly dramatically), I was poked with my nose into another couple of small things, and I went to the forum (1st time in my life) with interest and perplexity to see what people wrote. I saw a couple of interesting topics, and then came across more or less maximized message of some (unexpected) russian-language player (in main topic about models) on November (there wasn't something new, especially when you consider threads from beta, but it is short and about all problematic points), who made another in February and probably in March has gone (one of few posts that has tried to make a comprehensive attempt comparison, but it’s already too old), that's why I decided to use this player's comparison model and some pictures (but more because of laziness to make them myself = it was at first but after some time I made myself a few pictures). From that messages (thru links) I appeared on US section (part of those already buried or removed) (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + Makki’s threads (5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) + Deadlyz’s thread about portrait and haircut fixing (11, 12, 13, +similar (+++) from US) (latest attempt to raise models issue on EU (++++) US (++++) here = I would be grateful if someone threw there or here link on my message, but only if you think it does have something useful (my subscription ended 8 months ago and I don't want to stir up the past))); and then already here

    And look like warlock is back, or just was silence all that time, >_< a-a-and this is made from my "faces compare" (looks good: much younger and clean face; aww, I want this hair style :'( )... And.. hf!.. There is more! Much more! (merveilleux reconstruction). I take it back, I want this (how cute looks classic face here, on up-left picture) hairstyle/cut. I need some translation for this (+,+), at least in english (google didn't help much). Doesn't matter already, it's look like WAR WAS LOST
    . This is sad.

    So, about models. I promised (that's why you are reading now my message here) explain why models, can't move in classic way (my friends laugh with me and reminded me this message - saying that I'm like Blizzard: promised but didn't do; in general, I didn't promise, but now it's already a matter of principle). I didn't believe about written on official forum (warlok's proposal in old message) and asked friend, who working with 3D models (but at first I had to understand how, where and ... who said "Why?" - get out of the class!... dig new and old models from client/get on the side). End result was worth me large amount of beer, and one small promise. What happened? Turned out that return to classic animation is not such a problem in sense that new model can move in classic way, but only those who have a similar ratio of skeleton (frames, of course, will be hurt in some places and run into each other in case such as BE / NE have become fatter/too muscular (and because that’s how classic model driver works), but in general, during the motion, it won’t be very noticeable). In short: most of all except dr.fem. quite able to reproduce classic animation (ungulates have some problem only with animation, which involved torso). Don't ask me what he was doing, for I am only a man from marketing, all I understand is that he made new models frames tied to classic ones and new model become a puppet during animation (it's all done in some 3D-editor (BE.fem., NE.fem., hum.fem., und.fem.; he refused dr.fem. saying that they didn’t work, don’t know what he mean) and I only saw end result, but I don't know what kind of "tools"(it could have another mechanic) Blizzard use. They didn't make emotion or move fingers/their eyes, just repeated basic movements of classic animation and it looked good and recognizable.
    Thus we return to where we started - a mismatch in animations and proportions.
    Just remember, I’ll try to explain not how they bad, but how they wrong.

    1. Animations.

    There are a number of animations that are changed or lost entirely (basic posture, and because of it - running, jumping and even stealth). Assuming that they have changed not accidentally, but because of some unknown reasons, we can only curse them (new cloak animation, position of two-handed weapons and shield on the back etc). On the other hand, if this was done to "improve" models, already really want to be rude, because as if you take camera away, the first difference that your eye caught - animation (posture/running/walking/stealth/casts/jumping/etc), rather than differences in facial expressions or face form.

    A) Posture and idle animation.
    Classic posture: chest stuck out a little forward, buttocks - back, part of the body (left / right - depending on race and gender) exhibited slightly forward, neck is almost straight, chin slightly lowered, arms slightly bent at elbow, palms moves aside, raised and laid back shoulders (i.e. repeating torso shape on front view and closer to body) - somehow look like military bearing but with various head inclination (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7). I think, it's not WoW special innovation, but many developers also have done so... and doing and continue to do (1, 2+, 3+ - head tilt, face contour and line, hair shape... Well, it was simplest that I could find). And all stuff that they have also looks normal - cloak, weapons on the back, shields and also the characters look like "heroes") it's made because of taking into account the availability of weapons, weight balance and athleticism of "characters-warriors" (game is called "war craft", after all). New posture: elbows goes apart, too straight and got abnormal swinging, torso completely relaxed, shoulders slumped, head bowed forward and slightly jutting chin). It's lucky for those models for which this was basic posture - changes less noticeable. I'm not going to detail about remain stuff, but it’s heavily dependent on basic postures. Besides new hands position got characters to the clipping problems with weapons, coats (but it's more because of its new animation), and even to other parts of the body. Running, jumping, etc. are made by the same principles. I would like to see old posture on all my characters. At first I was wondering about real proportions, but it all went on that even humans doesn’t fit (hand and torso ratio and dependences) with reality, so I just made this typical comparison.
    If dr.fem. had so “bad“ torso, then why someone did this (1, 2), at list show me protruding more then chest abdomen and rib cage here , then why the hell did you give them human spine line, it works beautiful only in >> one way<<. It could be, that someone was very envy, or maybe just Blizzard tried to kill stereotypes, but stereotypes is something that not so easy to kill (here should be link to AoD-CoL), eventually they could simply overdone (who doesn't happen?), this applies in general for most all characters both males and females. I mean that some parts of models are good (detailed hands/foots (when their straighten and if close eyes on size mismatch), beautifully drawn shoulders, feet, palms), but all together somehow creates this expression of disgust. They even changed hooves structure and add more scoliosis to posture.
    Situation spoils, as you see, also size and proportions of characters, idle animation and another stuff, not only posture. If you tried to make breath animation, I assure you, it's not work like that (you make it looks like shortness of breath): dr.fem had barely noticeable up torso moving (and because of breast was up-forward protruding seems that she breathes), and now just stand with a deep nodding of whole body (almost like during the run), hum.fem. stagger (well I must note, that before they breathed very original - increasing size of breast ), troll also not silent, the same situation with my main - und.m. also too sway (back-forward). Nobody breathes like that (with stomach or deep swaying), maybe it's because of new posture, may be - too noticeable animation, don't know (besides, some models reproduce this classic animation - don't have claims against them). Weapons hanging out of place/stuck in frames, cloaks, shields and limbs creeps on each other for these reasons (note that links to pictures from messages had already gone ) and many other things. It’s look like client doesn't know that it uses new models. Bindings are the same (place for weapons/points of interaction) and they can't improve them for one simple reason - new models are inextricably linked with classic (any changes begin to "break" (1(++++)2(++++++++++)3(++++)) classic models, it's like domino effect: one little changing begin to ruin all composition). Eventually are dissatisfied and those who like them and those who don't like.

    B) Running animation.
    Major problem of new run animation in that it's not intended neither normal nor faster speed. (short steps/shoulder movement is missing in comparison with classic (I mean not so match torso rotation)/some model’s limbs (it’s more true for males), hand movements not designed for weapons (too bent, too abrupt and large-amplitude motion) torso mobility and shape does not correspond to classic (looks awkward), characters move too easily and therefore in full armor all this looks wrong. I mean something like this (1, 2, 3) turned into something else (1, 2, 3, 4). And, apparently because it was not enough, part of animations have a disproportionate vertical amplitude (for example, for dwarves this (1, 2, 3) has become this (none of models shouldn't have such bouncing (+ funny one video, look like made special for Blizzard): 1) it is practically not noticeable for people during running (if they really want to keep their force); 2) if you are so loaded by weapons, you even couldn't "off from the ground"; i.e. if you adequate approach to issue - classic "sliding" animations is ideal for all races / genders). /besides these guys have become really very hairy and I don't know what's in lore, but from my understanding "earthen" have abundance hair only those that on the head, and not as the ancient people also this. / But it's true only for some of models (text describes assembly worst-case scenario, that is, if there is something of this stuff you are not see in your model, means it's just not related to it). I made a little comparison the rest you can do yourself (also if you think that you could do better or you think that I made mistake, feel free to redo it). And some more stuff. They really should stay flexible enough.

    C) Facial expressions.
    My friends offered to just give opportunity to turn on/off/control power of expression for characters (with some kind of scroll bar), i.e. divide facial expressions and character animation. But I thought that it would be possible to do it in a little more interesting way (if they really will can to divide) and integrate some mechanism in game to change them. But that we have now (eye/eyebrow/nose/mouth/etc) (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) not only couldn't been controlled, but sometimes looks very ugly/implausible/disgusting, we know that Blizzard can do beautiful/adequately (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7). I don't mind if they will be able to do it all, but not every 5 seconds twitching eyebrows and head following them (I was amused at first, then it became annoying, and then enrage), assuming that someone will RP-ing a serious character it will look doubly foolish/inadequate or let at least to control this process. There is a suspicion that this is main reason why old-new position of eyebrows seemed too elevated (they just never let them down and twitching every 5 seconds, creating effect), that is, they lowered eyebrows not in favor of whine players, but for the sake of work with emotions. All differences between races are lost during emotions (a fortiori differences between faces, no matter what shape eyebrows/lips it has) und.fem., hum.fem., dwarf.fem., orc.fem. all look like gnom.fem, the same story with male characters. Gnom.fem. almost all grumpy/disaffected and have the same problems with a mismatch of eyebrows and facial expressions that hum.fem. (classic/new), and BE.fem. seem angry for the most time due to new (lowered) head and neck position (i.e. if neck and head will be 60-70% of time in "stop animation" position - it will be proud/arrogant look above the head into far away, and it will appear almost exactly as it was in TBC). New size and mobility of mouth cavity during animations deserves a special room in hell for their creator. If you already made "detailed" faces, don't forget about each detail: with large number of polygons comes great responsibility.

    D) Faces and makeup.
    I did this at first, but only on last face (spend time to make only 5 of them on list - there I changed the contour of face at first and, only after that, inserted face) I realized that it was useless job, and they simply have different head sizes and shape ratio (not only proportions/ratio of face elements) (I should take a closer look in upper left corner of this image before, it's clear here that gnom.fem. also changed shape of the head (was more massive but become smaller and round and with a very voluminous cheeks). By the way, judging by this picture, Blizzard seems to have altered face for dr.fem. (when worked with eyes) decreased cheekbones; not enough, but they tried, i.e. there was some good work, but it wasn't complete (I can't say if this particular problem missing now, because it's not noticeable in modelviewer, but cheekbones are still visible, so probably - yes). Then I did this, i.e. it was enough to 1) slightly rounded corners without changing dimensions and proportions, 2) put new texture on model frame, and 3) take into account angle between chin and neck, as well as its tilt base position, 4) take seriously to the problem with proper shape match of eyebrows, lips drawing and colors, 5) forget about emotions till those long as there won't be fulfilled first 4 points (because it seems to me that development was carried out in opposite direction, in not good faith with those points). As for makeup, it's simple. A very good example new BE.fem.: face clean, with very minor variations on selected color, eyelids are not evident (even eyelashes less noticeable, but also too black), body is clean except buttock's line (bottom right corner of the image) and, perhaps, these are all among more or less of serious complaints. And now look at hum.fem/NE.fem./dr.fem... mm? So you understand what I mean - number of foreign spots on face and body (people asking for more artificial shadows, but I believe that this is absolutely not right approach, because when character stands in shadow, these places look exactly that it's pictured on the body, and on lowest setting it all instead of lines turns to full blur: for female characters it's generally contraindicated (lines are not necessary for them, only very slow and almost unnoticeable color transitions that won't turn into spots) and for male it's required not to increase their quantity, or rather quality/ sharper image (i.e. narrower, but darker lines)): classic/new. Then... they don't need so much/wide-black mascara (they regret colors on black/hoar hair + eyes colors, but with this things - here you are), blush and artificial face shadows. I don’t mean any radical changes, I’m about sane (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 => I think, you got it) touch to principle of face drawing (1vs2). Well, if we speak about skin color (1, 2, 3 of course, it's too much black color here ), it should be continuous color instead of local rash. Eventually, even dirty face could be adequate, case, certainly, isn't only in this, but why make it worse.

    All of them can be athletic, agile, slim and at the same time pretty natural and raises a smile, but not to turn it all into a kind of humorous show
    After all, we didn't even ask (almost didn't ) them to do something complex (TESO, GW2, Tera, FFXIV, Blade&Soul, Vindictus, Black Desert, Dogma:EN, top 10 ), even a not so MMO/RPG could have some good stuff ( old, new, not so old (at least they look/move like soldiers “calm and confident”, not as some common people with overdose of energy drinks (it will soon be the 2nd)), or return us classic texture polishing and angularity of models, and if we even forget about "I just want full artistic freedom" things. We just ask to leave, at least, for new models what is so used, and what is so cute and warm to heart. I.e. don't try to do better something that was good, close and familiar for eyes without all of this - basic principles and concepts that already mortgaged in characters (ears were wrapped? - let them be wrapped / spin curved? – wonderful, will be curved same much / thin torso and legs? - Well, we're so used to be / was running (stealth/jumping/falling/etc.) original - well, so it's just better, why change?). It should be taken as basic concept and limitations (a legacy of classic) in new models. If you didn't understand what were (not “is”, but “were”!) on these pixels most expensive for us (especially sad to see those people who have "something" invested in their characters, rather than just a set of stats) - talk with some clever guys/read forum (1) worgens and goblins+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++, (2) trolls+, (3) taurens++, (4) NE+++++++++++++++++, (5) BE+++++++++++++, (6) draeneis++, (7) humans++++++++++++++, (8) gnomes++, (9) dwarves, (10) Forsaken+++++(+), (11) hunched_backs++++++++++++++++++, (12) demons+(+), (13) New_combat_animations, (14)sounds++ (it's also true for all new combat female sounds (draenei, human, NE))+gun/bow_sound(++)+all_vanilla, some other issue+++++++++++(+), and a little more+ opinions, also some topics about using classic+tbc vs New ones (US (+++++++++druids), EU (++), mmo-champion(+))
    New is not always better, even if don’t talk about improvement/deterioration, but simply about banal recognition.

    If we remember now player whose model of comparison I have used what we've got: doesn't keep body proportions, change in used basic animation (1, 2, 3, 4) + face expression + skull shape, added emotions with dubious necessity +
    I forgot about color, hatching (classic character's hair were with beautiful color transitions), shape of hairstyle (hum.fem. ponytail). Actually, this is also not only a completely wrong hairstyle, but even less plausible. Maybe they have changed with dr.fem.? (hits absurdity) This doesn't mean, that it couldn't be reproduce, but that it could have some problems. Personally, I am not against introduction of something new, but not with replacing old (and no matter how good or bad it was - the more options the more fun to play).
    I didn't get what with a wolf-form (I don't have shaman on my char-s), but I have an alternative option (Glyph, which enables shaman to choose which model (any model in game that you will be able to find and copy appearance for permanent use)) you want), instead of this, though, one does not interfere.
    If lok didn't lie in dr.fem. message about roleplaying, it is understandable why player left. But what can we do now. Oh well ...

    I could put here any further information with commentary about (there are so many different techniques) running (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) (with reminding that it's necessary to take into account other important factors, i.e. existence of different running speeds (speed scaling) and weight factor of wearable equip (heavy boots mean no back-up-tilting feet, heavy weapons mean no bent arms sudden movements), about posture (1, 2, 3, 4) and its correction (even its individual elements , yeah I'm talking about head tilt and shape of occiput) and, finally, an article about The structure of beauty (I found this by clicking random links in a foreign language section), but you'll have to settle for links. And then, ask forget all that you have just seen and to take into account only one option - classic models. Because none of characters didn't look like you have seen now, what makes them unique and this changes no one of those who played them (and so they like them in the way they were) didn't expect; so shouldn't be. Good revamp should look like good revamp. But when I see these videos (face proportion (+ makeup, facial)/form of torso/hair/emotions/movements animation and plastic), and then their analogues (videos/models) for WoW, I became a little upset, because I don't like, what I see.

    However, their main mistake is, that any another changes would entail following grievance of players, who are accustomed to "new image" (didn't seen/want/understand classic), and now whatever they'll do the "best" will never be. It’s a vicious circle of "…1) this is bad models -> 2) we have made as a classic -> 1) you're lying, they don't look like -> 2) we were doing them better -> but this is bad models..." and everything could end up on second step (in this context, meaning of "bad/classic" after next changes, every of those players will be understood in their own way). Blizzard - the ones who started this whole mess.
    (I have a theory that new designers just never seen them in game action, and worked directly with original models in default (T) position, and therefore animation, and, in some cases, proportions and torso shape (dr.fem. for example) become not the same as classic/TBC - they just didn't ever seen these models in action.)
    I hate the way they did it, guys, and you all know it already very well, so don’t judge me harshly.

    Nevertheless, models, of course, are not a priority right now, because vast majority of people (of those who leave) are saddened about overall situation in game. Models, if some saddened, it could only 5% of players, and gone for this reason even less. Although, I confess, I’m one of them: the only reason, I left - new models concepts (at first it was rage, now it's just a matter of principle).
    I don't know what kind of feedbacks they actually waiting (this applies to all: new models, reasons for players leaving the game, the general discontent in it), but main problem remains the same: one-way communication. I.e. we don't know how (in what areas) work is and why it goes that way (developers looks in this context as very capricious people(+)). I'm not saying that I want to see more spoilers, I’m saying that if they want adequate feedback, we should at least approximately have idea about boundaries/outlines of their opportunities (or at least of a technical nature of that prevents/how prevents and how to reach a consensus). Forums already have mountains of smart/stupid and original/boring information, and to dial out of ideas even for generic (non-detailed examination) is easy - get ~3 people for each of regional forums with task of "take notes" all more or less adequate (even if it does not comply with basic company's objectives and priorities) - a week of work, and voila, you have a ~ 80% of all comments and suggestions. Another thing is that if they don't care and feedback - it's only a fiction, then we have not be able to do anything and, obviously, they don't need any of it.

    2. Here next part begins.

    A) Flying.
    I learned about existence of this "problem" only from the forums (I lvl-ed all 5 chars on foot and still don't see the point of flying in current relevant content - don't know what they can now add to gameplay or take away from it) I mean, I don’t care. Last Blizzard solution allowed, but not interesting. Implausible explanations; more interesting realization couldn't take away but only add more content: clouds (of different density and content of toxic/friendly/etc), thunderstorm, turbulence region (claims on flying altitude for not to fall or lose control), different areas and mobs (rare/ordinary/boss, with varying population density and composition depending of territories) are available only through flying, dogfights, collecting resources, a more balanced group of mobs near quest items, placing them indoors or on contrary high in the air, more interactive mobs reaction with players who are flying above and their communications with each other... anything, and even with a long chain of tasks to get flying. That's what is called a loss of content, but as I already said – “no flying” wasn't a problem for me. If you doubt on their capabilities, at least look at what they made with Darkmoon Faire.

    B) Professions(+) and time tokens(++).
    I didn't forget about them and had some offers, but there's no time to explain everything because it’s too long for the deep abyss of their location and lack of their relevance for me.

    C) Apexis and content.
    you really interesting you could spend some time to understand this (part with items upgrades system is irrelevant, I was explained in details that it's won't work in this game) (...and yes, LFR “mustdie” in form which is now; one of my friends collected 20 "legendary" capes during Pandas (I think this isn't the limit), and no, he isn't "no-life player", system just too easy; then he laughed, that he now has a legendary account) I would say that now in game "casual" part become too big and it came out bad for Blizzard in game and forum sideways, but I probably refrain. I just can't take into account in this picture dependence of availability and amount of information (I don’t think it's bad, but it's a changes that’s required to take into account - for example random not-timer boss's abilities or something else). What we had before? Maximum: thottbot and a couple of people with understanding tactics = communication; and not like "I hate you all, but I want loot/see the story, so bear with me and all my deviation behavior". Sometimes I imagine such crowd as bots, but with implementation generator of curses (rude bots, wondering, who would program/needs them? Albeit...). But it's another side of the coin. And now: behold tactics (+ video), here required average il/DPS/HPS/DEF/res, here timings for abilities and here loot table (though most of it is already integrated into client and go anywhere else/someone to ask isn’t needed), it's also not a bad things but I like surprises.

    Little about Legion stuff: we asked for more opportunities and choices, but not its(+) maximum possible limitation.

    D) irrelevant since not working already
    --// So, we likes this previews, but it's not enough to back someone like us (our group) in game, we still need adequate (sane) new models.

    After Classic announcement, I found strength and time (not without my new friends' help) to process necessary material for criticism:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Well, like always...

    1st thing - art (models, animations, special effects)
    - I don’t play games which stylistically unpleasant to me, this game lost me when lost appearance of my characters that I was approving
    2nd thing - game world organization system
    - everything is quite simple: specialized closed servers, open living seamless world, no-layers and no non-local randomly appearing group/single "social aliens", linear difficulties progression along with story/"content"&dungeons, with minimum of automation
    3rd thing - simple and logical RPG customization system
    - detailed, but with minimum-levels, simple system of characteristics, from which only one thing is required, to give system of role-playing customization and progress while obeying general hierarchy of systems' dependence/priority (i.e. not exceeding its powers) = with all its other stairs corresponding to their places and names

    How about this?

    ps. I know what I want, the way I want it and why
    (I think it makes no sense to mention about "how much" and "when")

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    A lot of factors interfere with full implementation of such design: from itemization (organization of characteristics, approach to distribution of loot, progress organizaton, catch-up stuff, scaling everything with everything/everyone), content design (dungeon difficulty system, again scaling), class organization (secondary parasitic systems and chaos inside already existing hierarchy), banal greed (yes, these same tokens and other methods/motives) ~ if we add to this all regulation of social and server parts (inter-server mechanisms of interaction, including CRZ and search, phasing and WM), then picture of game's state will become complete for analysis and understanding (if add stuff about work of graphic designers and my complete rejection of appearance and animation of "new" models, their current style, then it can pinpointed a broad understanding of my personal attitude to game and about any desire to somehow associate myself with project, interest to it).
    1. General game design philosophy (&couple of words about armor types) +/+/+(+)+(+/+/+)+(more 2 msg after, so not my merit)
    2. Characteristics (&shame to PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up, item-case) +(+/+/+/+/+/+)+/+/+
    3. Class
    es philosophies+ (&thier coherence with whole design+resource/supports/balance) +(+/+/+/+/+/+/+/+)+(+)+/+/+
    Some words about talents (&their connection with classes, borrowed powers) +(+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+(+/+/+/+/+/+/+)
    About dungeons&requirements also M+/modes (+RNG+g.tokens+t/wf) +/+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+)+(+/+/+)
    6. Bad
    world+ (and not only) scaling+ +(+/+)+/+/+/+/+/+/+/+
    7. Little
    about loot policy +(+/+/+)
    Servers+ type/org (WM&MMO+changes'soc.psycho.res+auto/subscr) +(+/+/+/+/+)+(+)+(+/+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+/+)
    Quests(also rewards)/leveling (&levels) +(+/+/+)+(+)
    Threat philosophy & badge+system & W.Boss mechanics (it's not mine, but I won't do this better) +/+/+
    Some criticism to Ion's approach (&GC reference) +/+(+)
    Separate material (pirat-bards/witch(+allied.r)/lore(Sylvanas,magic,stealth)/fb/LFR(G)orig/c-ls/GH) +(+/+)+/+/+/+/+/+/+/+
    Some thoughts about "best expansions"(and the worst one, also WoD&MoP&Cata&WotLK) +(+/+/+)+/+/+/+
    The end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    That is, structure of their failure is not so simple and its story goes into their desire to simplify their lives by automating and cheapening development of content and progress as a whole, but not as result of particularly ardent desire to satisfy players, no no, this was considered last, they just "tested" "your" patience and provided just "shut up already" kind of help, which, as you understand, doesn't usually shine with wise performance
    I'm not talking about the good old times (ouch, this video still could make big men cry and smile >_< better than any “WoD-lore”), they'll never come back(++), but something in organizational paradigm, definitely, need to be done with where they are, the time has come. Something like this never should be legendary or imbalanced and easily accessible. Just a little more and it will go to console-CoD mode. (1, 2, 3+, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8). People, by the way, already making good predictions. They believe that there is no sense to pay for beginners in content that they will not play (because it has already passed stage, experience that Blizzard spoil themselves because it became "irrelevant").
    Whole game as a MMORPG become a nonsense in some way.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    For those who missed this wall of text listen here: if you are still fun to play, you still have things to do and you enjoy this – don't listen to anybody and don't look at anyone (it's only your choice and it depends on you), play for fun. Game doesn't die. It’s players, who are - the game itself. Most importantly, don't try to do everything in world (the most important thing in game always is just exactly what you like) if you're don't find such things then ask yourself a question, "Why should I play?" And if you realize that “it's enough!”, then, before leaving, be sure to take care of that on the next *six* months (if you were played more than 3 years) you will always have something to do in your spare time, otherwise it may happen that you wouldn't reach the goal. And no matter how it was boring here for you, you will return, because, otherwise, you'll experience discomfort sometimes. It's a matter of habit. I don’t recommend for this case another MMO, because you will constantly compare it with this game, and it is better to spend time for that it's finally be forgotten (but, of course, as I already said - it's your choice). And for Blizzard (if suddenly I'll be very lucky and someone reads this whole post) I would like to leave only 2 phrases first is about RP-player and his character, and second is about good communication between buyer and seller. So, never make promises that you can’t / don’t intend to perform, and if given, then never forget to perform them, otherwise you'll get some problems(+++). Think about it, you could really get a bad news (a lot).

    Will I be back in game? I don't know, it depends. It is very difficult just like that - throw everything and go (some of you in recent times also has experienced this feeling). But... apparently, I'm not ready to "fight" to the end.

    It seems I'm a bit overdone here. Those who wish to comment, I don't recommend you to comments in this topic. And those who are waiting for my replies on their own, will have to wait a long time since I’m out and just don't care anymore (the same story for Blizzard-guys – just don't comment, nobody cares). Sorry if offended anyone. Luck and enjoyable game for all of you, have fun!

    ps. How? Pictures were first, then was message, and then were links! This message - an example of how much (and, the more the worse) even not bad content you can put in improper place, making it difficult to perceive/boring/intrusive. How many of you were patient enough to go through all links (anyone ?) and not lose thread of reasoning? Yes, it is an allusion to current game development priorities

    You put a lot of effort and time to write all of this, but it's not very pleasant to read article, it's just too much to actually keep a track, and you wrote so many sidenotes. We need a huge thread for all the models that are, but all of it needs to be listed in clear and pleasant way, without writing too much but providing pictures about bugs/ problems, and keep it short and to the point.

    You did posted many pictures, but some of them aren't very good source to begin becuase you compare different styles to WoW, and pictures from CGI movies to character models. That is also a no way to go imo, since WoW has it's own laws, and it's own artistic freedom.

    Now I wonder which way it should be easier to make the ultimate character model thread, should it contain links to sperate model threads or have all the informations stocked in. Personally, I already feel that the OP for troll models is already overpacked with pictures, quotes, gifs, and so on.

    I'd gladly cooperate with people to track down the issues regarding models, but the problem is I also play mostly Horde and I don't know about most of the bugs on Alliance races, besides dwarf and gnome mouthbreathing underwater.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon
    It wasn't message about models, it was message about some my issues (i.e. what I care about - it's very much shorter than models problem). It's just a summary - with maximum links about each one. I won't try to do such message alone (i.e. this message, in common, not trying to be too specific, and pictures just for motivation). Unfortunately, I don't think anyone ever be able to do what you're talking about. Separately about models - yes, perhaps, but all together - no. It is trite need to have all characters of different genders and races and kind to them, to identify exactly what is important and necessary, which makes them those who they are.
    (too many people on the forum who don't share my thoughts on this specific topics, I have already many times argued with them on these issues, I doubt that I want to do it more)
    If it wasn't about errors, but simply a message about my current problems - that's all. In addition, this topic was conceived as something without discussion, but in principle I suspected that people won't hold and write something

    And yes message is difficult to read, even if I don't share text with different styles/sizes, but you just should reread ps...

    Sorry if I disappoint you
    Nah it's ok, you didn't disappoint me. But I thought that even from your views and thoughts something could be crafted from it. But new character models feedback is a huge task, and it should require colaboration with other players
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon
    Problem (how I see it) is much broader than anything you think, I simply didn't like approach/new art to animation and matching classica models (i.e. my problem can't be solved adjusting some small place - it is necessary to change whole approach that has been taken as basis for creating new models). So my message was exactly about this, saying that all changes that have been made just caused all your small "problems", if you look at picture there is description of difference between new and old engine, general changes to principle of running animation, posture, facial expressions, etc.

    A simple example - part about a particular hairstyle. Do you think they just changed it according to will of designer? No, because old hairstyle clashed frames in new model (with new posture) and the same story was with new animations, so they threw it out far from character's body. I.e. they changed model to be suitable to animation, but animation that had to be changed to suit the model. That is main principle of creation new models and change it by changing these ALL your small details nearly IMPOSSIBLE (it's too long and painstaking work)!

    And this is what I argued about on models topic, but peoples don't understand or don't agree with me (I don't know what).

    i.e. Make same models, then try to make same movements with same "engine principles" (and it will work because it's already working with classic/TBC models)

    ps. My message and image can be used for what you are talking about - there is nothing I tried to fake in them, i.e. everything exactly as it is shown. Use if you want, they were made for it.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2023-07-13 at 10:48 AM.

  2. #2
    The Patient
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Putting pathetic fanbois, white knight nitwits, and cunt anti-flyers on /ignore
    Yep, that pretty much sums it up. Thanks.
    Terms used by morons: "passive-aggressive", "lol", "lel", "kek", "um", "welp", "dat", "legendberries", & "you do realize".
    People who use "/thread" are not morons - even morons aren't that fucked up.
    But for abject, pathetic stupidity - nobody beats the "Hay if u dont play wow why u on theez bords lol" crowd.

  3. #3
    You put a lot of effort and time to write all of this, but it's not very pleasant to read article, it's just too much to actually keep a track, and you wrote so many sidenotes. We need a huge thread for all the models that are, but all of it needs to be listed in clear and pleasant way, without writing too much but providing pictures about bugs/ problems, and keep it short and to the point.

    You did posted many pictures, but some of them aren't very good source to begin becuase you compare different styles to WoW, and pictures from CGI movies to character models. That is also a no way to go imo, since WoW has it's own laws, and it's own artistic freedom.

    Now I wonder which way it should be easier to make the ultimate character model thread, should it contain links to sperate model threads or have all the informations stocked in. Personally, I already feel that the OP for troll models is already overpacked with pictures, quotes, gifs, and so on.

    I'd gladly cooperate with people to track down the issues regarding models, but the problem is I also play mostly Horde and I don't know about most of the bugs on Alliance races, besides dwarf and gnome mouthbreathing underwater.
    I miss Mists of Pandaria

  4. #4
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
    I think I felt part of my brain liquefy and slide down my spinal column trying to read all that. Not to argue it's nonsensical or anything, just. Way too drunk to process a post written like a well-written academic paper.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!

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