Drag Queens banned from Gay Pride Event

[Underverse]

You confuse wanting to do away with enforced gender norms with self selected gender norms. That's why you don't understand.

There is no hypocrisy in identifying oneself as "a woman" (short hand here for a given set of characteristics), while wanting everyone else to get to make that decision as well. There are of course those who argue that a world with entirely self selected gender is a world with no gender, but that's really all one and the same as far as I'm concerned.

How am I confusing the two? Examples.

[nextormento]

Which is why I disagree with the video? You're going to have to be more clear, I don't think I understand your argument.

Here's more clear: you missed the point.
The path of least resistance refer to the incredibly obtuse social hurdles trans people receive on a daily basis.

[Thage]

The other side of the story being that trans activism wouldn't even be much of a thing without the exposure transvestites gave to the whole shebang.

This is true. It's an extremely complicated issue--trans activism is often buried; most people who know about Stonewall still don't know about the role trans women played in it. The point is, though, there is a LOT of bad blood between drag queens and trans women.

[Wells]

How am I confusing the two? Examples.

Right in the sentence I quoted. "I don't understand why people are so eager to conform to gender norms while supporting a movement built ironically on non-conformity". This entire confusion is grounded in a poor understanding of what the goal really is for those who want to liberalize gender identity. Its not about abolition, its about choice.

[Underverse]

You know there are trans women who identify as female, but like more or less only things that are typically considered masculine, right? Like gender identity is not the same as gender and gender role.

Yes I know. You can switch out role for identity if you want. My statement stands.

[Dundebuns]

Drag queen performers have been banned at a side event in connection with that particular Pride. You can still turn up in drag, but they wont be performing. They will have Drag Queens performing at the main event.

Drag has nothing to do with insulting Transgendered people. It's about men dressing up like women in an outrageous fashion. That's quite basically what it is. /goestofindhisfabulousheels

[Underverse]

Right in the sentence I quoted. "I don't understand why people are so eager to conform to gender norms while supporting a movement built ironically on non-conformity". This entire confusion is grounded in a poor understanding of what the goal really is for those who want to liberalize gender identity. Its not about abolition, its about choice.

Okay. So the trans movement is about choosing your gender. And I still disagree with it for the same reasons, which are the enforcement of stoic gender identities (thank you Nixx) and conformity to preexisting gender identities among others.

I was just pointing out the irony as a side note.

[Underverse]

Here's more clear: you missed the point.
The path of least resistance refer to the incredibly obtuse social hurdles trans people receive on a daily basis.

Yes. I know. And it's called the path of least resistance because there is some larger driving force that makes these hurdles small in comparison to what they would face if they did not.

And that driving force, I am calling culture. Not biology.

[Wells]

Okay. So the trans movement is about choosing your gender. And I still disagree with it for the same reasons, which are the enforcement of stoic gender identities (thank you Nixx) and conformity to preexisting gender identities among others.

I was just pointing out the irony as a side note.

Only if you assume there is two true gender identities. If instead we look it as a broad spectrum of personal choices there's nothing at all wrong with wanting to abolish enforced gender norms while also selecting a gender, even if that gender you select is a standard definition of "male" or "female". Nothing hypocritical, nothing ironic.

[Underverse]

Only if you assume there is two true gender identities. If instead we look it as a broad spectrum of personal choices there's nothing at all wrong with wanting to abolish enforced gender norms while also selecting a gender, even if that gender you select is a standard definition of "male" or "female". Nothing hypocritical, nothing ironic.

Um, it is by definition hypocritical to want to select a gender norm for yourself while wanting to abolish gender norms.

Not that I have a problem with hypocrisy.

[Wells]

Um, it is by definition hypocritical to want to select a gender norm for yourself while wanting to abolish gender norms.

Not that I have a problem with hypocrisy.

You are aggressively trying to only understand half the argument. Its not about abolishing gender norms. Its about abolishing imposed or expected gender norms. Getting to pick what you identify as rather than having it pushed on you. You're confused because you don't understand.

[Nachturnal]

You know there are trans women who identify as female, but like more or less only things that are typically considered masculine, right? Like gender identity is not the same as gender and gender role.

This right here. I have NOTHING against the transgender movement or people. I treat human beings according to their personality and attitudes. But maybe it's because I'm not so informed, but all these terms and explanations seem so confusing. Is there like a page with clear cut definitions lol.

Because if I say transvestite, I sound like a dick. If I say transgender, then it ends up being something else. I like gay and lesbian. It's clear and to the point lol. Then when it starts branching out with biological genders identifying as the opposite, but not liking the opposite, or liking the opposing and... see what I mean? I just want to be more informed. Direct me Nixx, be my guardian Google searcher.

[Wells]

This right here. I have NOTHING against the transgender movement or people. I treat human beings according to their personality and attitudes. But maybe it's because I'm not so informed, but all these terms and explanations seem so confusing. Is there like a page with clear cut definitions lol.

Because if I say transvestite, I sound like a dick. If I say transgender, then it ends up being something else. I like gay and lesbian. It's clear and to the point lol. Then when it starts branching out with biological genders identifying as the opposite, but not liking the opposite, or liking the opposing and... see what I mean? I just want to be more informed. Direct me Nixx, be my guardian Google searcher.

Just be polite and if they correct you go with it. Honestly unless they're someone you're close with their gender really won't be a topic of discussion past pronouns, and given the limited number of pronouns in the english language you should be ok with a guess.

[Paranoid Android]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/drag-...-10403198.html

Drag queens have been banned from performing at a Pride event in case they offend transgender people.

Organisers of Free Pride Glasgow, which bills itself as an 'anti-commercialist' alternative to the Scottish city's main Pride event, have announced the controversial ban.

Despite the fact that drag queens have been closely associated with Pride celebrations for most of their history, they will not be allowed to appear at the event next month in case they cause offence.

A statement from the organisers said: “After much discussion, the trans and non binary caucus decided not to have drag acts perform at the event.

“This does not mean that people of any gender can’t wear what they want to the event, we simply won’t be having any self-described drag acts perform at our Free Pride Event on August 22. "

It added: "We hope people can understand and support our decision. However we feel it important to fully explain why we came this decision.

“The decision was taken by transgender individuals who were uncomfortable with having drag performances at the event. It was felt that it would make some of those who were transgender or questioning their gender uncomfortable."

The organisers of the main Pride Glasgow event said they understood the rationale behind the decision, but the banning of drag acts was "against what an inclusive event should be about."

The organisers told Pink News: “Pride Glasgow believes that any community group should be given their place to flourish but that success should not be built on the negativity and ignorance towards other events, groups and like minded people and we are saddened to see that this is the direction that Free Pride has chosen to take.”

For most this is where re-read the article again and look that this is some splinter group from the "main" Gay Pride Parade.

Let me guess, like many of the feminism threads, this group will represent the whole gay community as discriminating against people in their community.

[PizzaSHARK]

I am Female, yes.
I have a natural beard, yes.
Sometimes I let the beard grow.
I have Breasts, and need to wear a bra. Sometimes I have a beard and go to the beach with out a top. I should point out I go to the closest point walking from my apartment when I go to the beach, and it is not as busy there. But that's because I hate dealing with people.

Your problem is not understanding, I am gender non-binary and a Transwoman. I just do what feels natural for me, my inner voice says she and her. I have no idea what it means to feel like a man, although for a time I tried to very hard and Joined the Marines, got in to Force Recon ect.

Sorry, gender is a binary, just like sex. You are either majority female or majority male, there is no "both", and there cannot be a null state.

You can identify as female and still have a beard, but it's very odd because beards are an overtly masculine feature. It's also odd because if you were undergoing hormone replacement therapy - pretty normal for most trans people - you would likely not be able to grow a beard, or at most it would come across as stubble and not a full beard.

It's very odd to identify as the gender opposite your sex and then not pursue hormone replacement therapy and possibly surgical reassignment.

[Wells]

I'd have to check the numbers again when I have time, but I think most transgender individuals do not undergo hormone therapy.

[Nachturnal]

I really can't give you solid answers. I say trans man, trans woman, transgender (as an adjective only, never as a noun), and that's about it. Refer to people with the pronouns they prefer and do not misgender them, whether they've begun to transition or not. The terminology doesn't seem to be as sorted out as it is for other minority groups. My basic strategy is avoid anything that seems questionable, use what I know, and apologize if I screw up.

Edit: I should add that I would not just randomly run around referring to someone as trans. Like if I do not specifically need to refer to the fact that they are trans, which is usually limited to stuff like posting in these types of threads where it's discussed in a more abstract way, I would just say woman, not trans woman. It's also a thing that you should avoid outing people.

Just be polite and if they correct you go with it. Honestly unless they're someone you're close with their gender really won't be a topic of discussion past pronouns, and given the limited number of pronouns in the english language you should be ok with a guess.

Just to be clear, I'm not running up to people in my daily life and identifying their gender lol. I know how to be welcoming. I was asking because I wanted to be a little more informed rather than be ignorant of the definitions. It was more to have a better understanding of people I may come across on the internet/forums rather than in the day to day life where it would be much simpler.

But I do agree Wells in being polite. I'm sure no one would fault me for being wrong, and correcting is something I'd appreciate. Not trying to hurt feelings. NYC breeds some pretty great levels of acceptance.

[Deleted]

Imagine a transgender homo cross-dresser, can this be the final form ?

Continue to eat hormonal foods and every shit possible, and then be surprised by those psycho paths of the poisoned body.

Hominidae, look like eating your own parents isn't enough, just eat your children and end this shit quickly.

Infracted

[Kalis]

Imagine a transgender homo cross-dresser, can this be the final form ?

Continue to eat hormonal foods and every shit possible, and then be surprised by those psycho paths of the poisoned body.

Hominidae, look like eating your own parents isn't enough, just eat your children and end this shit quickly.

Have you been sniffing the Roquefort again?

[tiporispit]

I don't know if you realize this, but trans people are arguably the most persecuted minority. They don't even really have mainstream acceptance, let alone their goals accomplished.

Black women called. They said you're full of shit.