The Tedium & Appeal of MMOs

[Ornerybear]

I wish my real life job was being a dragon riding drunken dwarf that nothing could kill aside from the most powerful beings in the universe...

I enjoy grinding in mmos/wow. wow and modern mmos arent very grindy at all. nothing like awful grind of eq. spend a month on getting a level and get back to me.

I do not find wow tedious in the least

[Scyclone]

I wish my real life job was being a dragon riding drunken dwarf that nothing could kill aside from the most powerful beings in the universe...

I enjoy grinding in mmos/wow. wow and modern mmos arent very grindy at all. nothing like awful grind of eq. spend a month on getting a level and get back to me.

I do not find wow tedious in the least

I find quests tedious, personally. While grinding, at least if grouped, can actually be quite fun. I would suggest giving EQ1s TLE servers a shot (avoiding some of the neckbeards, mind you). I spent 6-7 hours in a group kicking ass inside of LGuk where we spent a good portion of it drunk off our asses and trying to see what it would take to kill our group. We trained onto ourselves just to see how many could still keep standing. Ironically, we never wiped, gained numerous levels off of it and had a blast doing it.

[philefluxx]

It has been said before, MMORPG's are currently a stale genre. There is only so much you can do and its pretty much all been done in one form or another.

I agree that immersion can take your game a long way, but we have become numb to immersion techniques partly due to over consumption of the product.

It is my strong opinion we will see a big boom to the genre when the first full VR MMORPG happens. We'll be back to people losing their jobs and families over a virtual world. It's just right now we are becoming highly tolerant of the delivery system and its going to take something more powerful to give us that "high" again.

[grandpab]

I think a lot of it might just be age. Ever since about 22 (5 years ago) I haven't been able to get into MMOs again like I could when I was younger. Even if the best MMO that could ever be released came out I would still sit there and think about how much time is required to invest into the game to see any decent progress. I just don't want to devote myself to any game like that anymore. I've put a little over 500 hours into Destiny in the last year, and I'm completely happy with that. I can quit for a month without feeling like I'm getting left behind, and start up again very easily. I haven't played much in the last month, but I'm cool with that too. I've been playing several other games. I guess I don't really like spending all of my time on a single game anymore, but instead now I prefer to spend less time on more games. I've given up on trying to find an MMO that I enjoy, and I don't even bother to look out at the horizon to see what's coming out in the future anymore. I was into MMOs hardcore for about 10-12 years too.

[Scyclone]

It has been said before, MMORPG's are currently a stale genre. There is only so much you can do and its pretty much all been done in one form or another.

I agree that immersion can take your game a long way, but we have become numb to immersion techniques partly due to over consumption of the product.

It is my strong opinion we will see a big boom to the genre when the first full VR MMORPG happens. We'll be back to people losing their jobs and families over a virtual world. It's just right now we are becoming highly tolerant of the delivery system and its going to take something more powerful to give us that "high" again.

While I agree here, I don't think it is as bleak as you make it seem (then again, it may be given political/corporate bs that gets in the way) -- But you are right in that something needs to up the ante in order to push us past this stale point. Truthfully, I had hoped EQ Next would be continued and pushed to such a level that it could deliver on its promises (it really felt like the next generation quality of an MMORPG) but I do not know if it'll ever come to fruition given that Daybreak is now a husk.

That said, I see two large progressive jumps for MMORPGS

- World interactivity (Essentially much of what EQ Next promised, with being able to build on the world, to shape the world around you [barring some foreseeable griefing from hell lol...], a living world with AI that goes far beyond the concept of respawning, and lastly the ability to impact the world at large through action or inaction)

- Virtual Reality (Doubly so if we include sensory inputs to a high level). While I can't say that something like SAO or Ready Player One would be all that possible, it would still be an absolutely amazing endeavor to push towards.

- - - Updated - - -

But see, that's what gets me. People will act all social and friendly - when there's a benefit to it. Take the benefit away, and suddenly their beloved social interaction gets thrown to the wayside.

On the other hand, in other venues, people will socialize and be friendly and whatnot just for the sake of it. Because they enjoy it.

The fact that your "best friends ever" in an MMO today will totally forget you tomorrow if you're not a class their raid needs, or you do bad DPS or something kinda adds to that. The bottom line being: I'd wager that 95% or more of "social activity" in MMOs ends up being bullshit. "Friends" are based on what value your character has, and "socializing" relies on what benefits both parties get.

/cynical

I won't disagree with that... but that is social interaction as well. People do all sorts of things for benefits until they can't get something out of it. You have a significant other because you want love and desire to love them, though if you no longer recieved any love for it, would you still think of it in the same light? I know, a strawman concept... but everything in this world is a give and take. I do not believe that every social activity has to have such a high value to it... but I have met people who enjoy socializing and having fun in game with their friends (and could care less about the concept of a 'character') and I have met many people (mostly 90+% raiders) who are 'friends' only while they need your character class/dps/etc. Some of which had at points in time been good friends of mine. I no longer seek out people like that, because they are worthless as humans. But even my act of rejecting people like that is my own choice to refuse social interaction because I no longer receive the benefits I seek (See how it is all a circle?)

I am a very cynical person as well, but I do find those rare moments that prove to me that the world isn't as full of self-important egotists and greedmongers as I previously thought.

[grimsanta]

Well, WoW didn't remove social interaction. They made certain things more convenient, and people chose to simply act in an anti-social manner. Which is an interesting study on what people really value in these games, but I don't think that it's a fair attack on the game itself.

When a population stops a behavior en masse, it means that something in the environment has changed to do so. Although yes, it's technically a choice, large groups of people often act as one. This is something blizzard really seems to have a problem predicting.

In the case of the game becoming less social, it was Blizzard who, with LFD started a decline by offering short term rewards (shorter queues because you didn't have to know anyone to find a group). Short term rewards are very attractive to populations, even if the long-term rewards are being hurt. This is especially true when the previous long-term rewards (having friends) is something less tangeable than say, gear.

[unfilteredJW]

I've always found myself attracted to MUDs for this itch. I like "neverending" progression. I like creating a character rather than a toon. And I like that text doesn't tie developer ideas down because art assets.

For example, one I'm playing right now just had what was called The Darkness War. Basically an invasion from the shadow plane. Caused a ruckus for a week or so, had a few major cities be destroyed in game, as well as the deaths of a few of the Gods. This stuff is nearly impossible to pitch to anything but a niche audience, but damn do I love my niche.

[Nachturnal]

If I hear Vanilla WoW mentioned one more time, I'm gonna stab a kitten. Of course everyone loved Vanilla WoW, because there was nothing else like it at the time! There was nothing better to play and it was one of the first of it's genre!

You get a game like WoW in 2004 with it's "next-gen" graphics compared to UO and Everquest. It brought something completely different in that the updated visuals made you feel more part of the game. There was nothing like it at the time. Now there's hundreds of WoW clones.

I do agree MMO's need some new life breathed into them, but no one seems to have an answer, and even is worse that players have unrealistic expectations/goals.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

If I hear Vanilla WoW mentioned one more time, I'm gonna stab a kitten. Of course everyone loved Vanilla WoW, because there was nothing else like it at the time! There was nothing better to play and it was one of the first of it's genre!

You get a game like WoW in 2004 with it's "next-gen" graphics compared to UO and Everquest. It brought something completely different in that the updated visuals made you feel more part of the game. There was nothing like it at the time. Now there's hundreds of WoW clones.

I do agree MMO's need some new life breathed into them, but no one seems to have an answer, and even is worse that players have unrealistic expectations/goals.

I gave you an answer. You need to build a world that players have some claim to or can shape. You can have some themepark elements but making your entire product one carefully planned out roller-coaster ride is why they get so exhausting. Even worse is as you further develop your game to ease that ride along, you're actually bleeding out underlying elements that added a sense of being into the world/reality itself.

You also have to realize that your players do evolve. Just because raids and the treadmill have done well in years past, doesn't mean they'll continue to keep people satisfied because when you want to get down to it... they're awfully shallow. They lack the depth, complexities, and systems of single-player titles yet you're often paying a lot more for them in the long run. At least with subscription based models.

It is the social/interactive element that is at the heart of an MMO. Why not build upon it?

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Which already exists in the form of the sandbox style MMOs.

It seems like you're unwilling or unable to recognize that it's basically an entirely different genre. Being a "sandbox game" isn't some feature that WoW is lacking. It's not something that they "should add". It's a different type of game altogether.

It's a genre that is gradually dying and looking for options to give it more life. People are getting wore out on these repetitious, shallow systems. I believe I have pinpointed the reasons why. Vanilla WoW was more of a grind and far more tedious yet of all the expansions and MMOs, I still have the most fond memories concerning it. It wasn't because it was my first but because there was underlying elements I fell in love with that are now gone - things we took for granted.

There are also very few to no good sandbox MMOs out there in the true sense. Archeage was a disaster and fairly weak. Then you've got Eve which, not that many people want to spend all their goddamn time floating around in space - very niche really. If Mass Effect was similar I wouldn't have liked Mass Effect. It was interacting with the planets, cultures, etc that made the game fun. Not being trapped in a tin-can for the rest of your unnatural life.

Also, you can have sandbox ELEMENTS without being an out and outright sandbox. I'm not saying WoW should just completely revamp itself as one but in future content, consider material that would allow players to make their own adventures or that gives them greater personalization. They seem completely against it as even Garrisons(their answer to housing) was anything but personable and as a result, railed against.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

That's actually wholly incorrect. The genre is doing nothing but growing. But as it often does, our perspective gets in the way of the facts, and as we tire of something, we presume it's "dying".

No, the genre, as in tightly controlled themepark rides like WoW, FFXIV, etc... are dying. In fact I can say without a doubt that FFXIV's only done as well as it has due to the nostalgia factor it brings to the table. FFXIV has likely already hit its high-point and I don't see them capitalizing on it, especially with this expansion. They've done nothing to solidify their gains for the long-term.

WoW is losing players by the millions. Obviously, what it's offering, people are sick of and wanting something more.

If you're going to spend the time creating this massive, expansive world, you need to have people feel some sort of investment in it. You don't get that by rushing them through tedium straight into some raiding encounter to kill off more of your named characters. It might have worked in the past but now, it's becoming more of an archaic standard.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Well, this is a problem. You're clearly disillusioned with the genre, but that's not enough for an argument, so you're claiming that it's all "dying" in order to support your points. Which is common enough of a strategy, but it's hard to discuss anything beyond that if that's your starting point.

It's hard to discuss anything beyond that because it is fact. If you were a developer designing a new MMO you better be thinking of something different or you're likely not going to make it. To be perfectly blunt, I can almost guarantee it if you don't have an already established universe like in FFXIV's case. The question isn't whether the current standard is dying, it simply is. The question is how you address it with future content and or games. If you don't, expect to continue seeing losses in the long term.

[Fencers]

I sort of understand your points though I'm a little thrown off by your lack of love for action MMORPGs.

I don't find the design of flopping about, running & gunning, hacking at the air and dodging rocks all that compelling over a multi-hour sessions of gaming.

I don't overly enjoy action games as single player titles either- Mario, Zelda, Dark Souls, Assassin's Creed, etc. Even less so when I have to spend hundreds of hours cartwheeling pass fireballs for hundreds of hours.

That said, I have a powerful connection so latency and the likes is rarely an issue for me.

I have the fastest possible service available in my city. Latency is a non-issue for me in all games.

Though it is not so for designers. Game designers MUST reconcile latency and synchronization as part of their DD/T. This is poor game design.

I advise vehemently against FFXIV...

I dislike World of Warcraft so there is little appeal there. But I am more curious if FF14 has any interesting game systems. I don't care about the repetition or the "fun" of playing. I do care about the complexity of their game systems. Doing some light research, FF14 seems "average" in systems.

Haven't decided if I will ever play FF14 again yet. Though it's a maybe so far. XD

[Kelimbror]

Though where the game does shine is in being so broad. It feels like some days I have so many things I can do that I just don't even have time for them all.

Plus there's the Golden Saucer. I was so sad when my free time ended and I couldn't play it anymore...just not in a good space for a sub game atm.

[Scyclone]

Well, I wouldn't say that any systems in FFXIV are objectively "deep". Compared to WoW many of the systems might as well be an ocean in comparison, but compared to gaming in general nothing is particularly deep. I suppose that's standard for most MMOs though, I never see a lot of great depth in them.

Though where the game does shine is in being so broad. It feels like some days I have so many things I can do that I just don't even have time for them all.

Eh... I think to some extent you may be giving FF a bit too much credit there . Systematically, if we are talking about the class based off weapon and the continuous progressions there, sure I'll give you that one. But the character diversity for classes is in fact even worse than WoWs, which is worse than most MMOs, and is laughed at hilariously by games such as Rift where you can go above and beyond crazy in combining things you like about different classes.

My biggest complaints about FFXIV, which ultimately caused me to quit it for the third time... is thus:

• The general interactions in the game - When you come from games like EQ2 and WoW, you sort of expect to be able to quickly hop in, drop out your inventory selling. Quickly interact with things you find on the ground. So forth and so on, it feels like FFXIV punishes you by throwing additional menus (Are you sure you want to use this item in the only way it was meant to be used? Are you really sure? Just checking!)
• The dungeon communication thing... I get what they are going for, you want to make it so that the group is focused on the dungeon in front of them. But preventing tells, discussions and such to the outside world is just painful... There are better ways to do this
• The game itself and lack of progression - Note that I am not referring to raiding or anything of that sort, but actual character progression as you level. It feels very slow, grindy (and this is coming from someone whos been playing EQ1 and EQ2 time lapsed servers...), and ultimately, it feels very unrewarding. You do the main quest line, and past that point you are just filling in holes, hoping to chase down fates or whatever, but ultimately... you don't get anything cool until X levels from now. Feels bad man.
• The lack of true diversity or creativity in character development. While most MMOs are screwing this up badly, they at least attempt to offer something meaningful here. Granted I can't say if raiding gear has actual variance enough in secondary statistics to provide building specific kinds of gear sets (like Critical focused gear builds), I can't help but feel that my character is a guarenteed cookie cutter of every member of the class. There is no diversity, and even worse, the cross class skills are almost insulting with how useless they are in many characters cases. Only a few rare instances is there something truly worthwhile, and it depends on your class in the first place. Sadly, I've only found one MMO that does this properly (The Secret World), where you aren't so bound or restricted to play the game their way as opposed to playing it your way. I would have loved to be an archer who uses magic, instead I am a bard... (Not referring to the new expansion), why in gods name would I want to be a bard... but alas, it is my only choice past a certain point, if I want to remain an archer of effective group use.

There are plenty more, and while I do enjoy the FFXIV storyline of the main quest, the rest of it seems like they are trying to barrage you with books upon books of halfhearted soundless dialogue (too much reading is bad when you are trying to quest/play a video game..., that said... voice acting isn't the sharpest thing in many FF games... this is no exception) or they are sending you across the world, to turn in a rock, to go across the world once more, listen to a 15 page dissertation about why the rock was important, and then travel halfway across the world to collect 30 bear asses to smother on the rock you collected earlier. I can't help but feel like other MMOs do the grinding experience considerably better.

I am not saying there aren't great things about the game. Visually, FFXIV is incredibly impressive, and my Miqote is awesome with her red almost glowing eyes. The storyline is quite solid and I must admit, the level 50 end quests were wicked awesome (dat weapon fight...). I like the FF theming so in general that side was good and a nice mixture of multiple FF games in one. The class changing mechanic is always nice, and I rather enjoyed it. The dungeons seemed relatively entertaining and I think the Levequests/guildhests/whatever the hell these were all called was a great way to just grind out something quick if you felt like it. The fates are pretty nice as well, though I wish they had much more diversity than they did. It feels like they took some of Rifts ideas, but then didn't really go as far as Rift did with their events.

To me, I feel like FFXIV is a standard MMO, that lacks a lot of the depth many other MMOs have, and tries to make up for it with mini-side things. Just my two cents on what all I've experienced. I hit level 50 on several classes, but got frustrated by my 'lack of fun' in playing that class I really wanted to play.

[Scyclone]

Well, that's why I was pretty specific on saying that it's not very deep!

As for customization...I've yet to see an MMO where "customization" was anything but an illusion at best, or just a way to gimp yourself at worst. I know some people place a lot of value, but like many other things, MMOs seem like the wrong place to look for it.

Ah, perhaps I read it in reverse thinking you were meaning FFXIV had more system depth than WoWs by comparison of an ocean :P. Because Garrisons alone were more complex than FFXIV is almost as a whole lol.

I think customization is a GREAT thing for making a character your own. I do not exactly agree that MMOs are a wrong place to look for it, but more or less a hit-and-miss type of deal. Ultima Online was a great MMO of allowing a character to play your own way. Some weren't viable in the same conventional sense, but everything had a use, whether you were a fighter with high tactics/anatomy, someone with high poisoning/fencing, an archer who could cast spells as a secondary or a mage who could use a bow and arrow as a secondary for when they went out of mana. There were countless combinations, and some of which skirted the line of a perfect balance to incorporate a lot of them simultaneously. My character had archery, swordsmanship and magery. I was great at none of them, but combined with proper timing and the exact balance of stats I needed to pull it off, I was borderline unstoppable in a fight due to the raw burst damage capacity. It was essentially a glass cannon set up with a bit of grit.

The Secret World has done an exceptional job for customization, in that even the wierdest possible things can be combined for some interesting and useful results. TSW did a much better job of effectively dissolving the illusion than something like Rift, which while there are some various creative and fun combinations, the optimized ones are vastly superior. Not to say in TSW there aren't "the best build for this" types of things, but the difference between the worst and the most optimized are not as far apart as it would seem. You feel more like you are able to play the game the way you want, as opposed to playing it the way they want.

To me, customization is one of the biggest components of an effectively fun MMO. Whether that is customization due to gear or character design, truthfully, I hope for both. And I miss the older generations of WoW that used to follow that thought process. Now a days, every class spec is exactly the same as one another. Not even gear makes things unique or different anymore since everyone just goes for the better stat stick. Back in TBC era, it was viable to be a marksman hunter (when BMs were touted to be the 'best') and to go a pure haste build (something no one would ever touch) and actually be a top tier hunter in terms of DPS. A friend of mine did this exact combination, coupled with the hurricane (a weaker weapon, but one that boosted attack speed significantly). And he would fire off two-three arrows in the time it took someone else to fire one. At the end of the day, he came out on top because his shots did 40-50% of a normal shots damage, but he was pulling ahead by about 10-20% due to the amount of attacks he made compared to the others.

I think good customization requires an understanding that while there will ultimately be a 'best' set up, you should always equip the less optimal with the tools they need to remain competitive. I won't lose any sleep being 5% weaker than the most optimized monster out there. I would feel useless if that was 20-30% instead. And thats what the illusion of customization tends to bring.

[Razael]

Ehh, the last MMO i played that i truly enjoyed was TSW and that was mostly because of the amazing story, ambience and immersion. Not because of being an MMO.
I guess i out-grew the desire to do repetitive chores just to brag about being Exalted with this faction or to hope that 0.5% mount drops that isn't a recolour of an existing mount.
My time is golden now and MMOs are time wasters. I bought a PS4 (and no i'm not gonna start a Console vs PC war, just for context) and i'm throughly enjoying playing games like Batman Arkham Knight, Witcher 3, Metal Gear Solid Ground Zeroes etc. These games feel so much more rewarding atm because they have a beggining , middle and an end. I never get bored because the game is finished, theres no extra chores to do, everything i'm playing is essencially new content, fresh.

I'm probably picking Destiny when the next DLC comes out just because i still enjoy certain aspects of MMO related gaming, like cooperation, socializing etc and i have some friends to play it with but otherwise i think my MMO-life is done. I think before people start pointing fingers at any MMO in particular they need to realize whether they like MMOs and what they entail at all anymore. Once you hop onto your second, third, maybe fourth mmo, every other will feel the same just with a facelift. No other will ever captivate you as much as your first.

[Scyclone]

Ehh, the last MMO i played that i truly enjoyed was TSW and that was mostly because of the amazing story, ambience and immersion. Not because of being an MMO.
I guess i out-grew the desire to do repetitive chores just to brag about being Exalted with this faction or to hope that 0.5% mount drops that isn't a recolour of an existing mount.
My time is golden now and MMOs are time wasters. I bought a PS4 (and no i'm not gonna start a Console vs PC war, just for context) and i'm throughly enjoying playing games like Batman Arkham Knight, Witcher 3, Metal Gear Solid Ground Zeroes etc. These games feel so much more rewarding atm because they have a beggining , middle and an end. I never get bored because the game is finished, theres no extra chores to do, everything i'm playing is essencially new content, fresh.

I'm probably picking Destiny when the next DLC comes out just because i still enjoy certain aspects of MMO related gaming, like cooperation, socializing etc and i have some friends to play it with but otherwise i think my MMO-life is done. I think before people start pointing fingers at any MMO in particular they need to realize whether they like MMOs and what they entail at all anymore. Once you hop onto your second, third, maybe fourth mmo, every other will feel the same just with a facelift. No other will ever captivate you as much as your first.

While I agree with a lot of this, I also disagree with it as well.

Much like you, I outgrew the desire for repetitive chores and things like that. And while my time is certainly more valuable now, I don't consider MMOs to be unfun to that end. I do get what you mean referring to regular games and the finality of them, but to that very same end, the finality can be just as much a bad thing as it can be a good thing. God knows I have played the Mass Effect trilogy more times than I can count... I desperately crave a fourth one, and sadly I am not sure if the new one will live up to my aspirations of the previous three (and I am not a huge sci-fi fan... so that says something )

I enjoy cooperation, socializing and the many aspects of MMOs, but there is still a fundamental flaw with MMOs in todays setting. They are including features out of convenience that absolves themselves of core components and tenants to what makes an MMO what it is. Many games have shaved off the RP from MMORPGs, and soon, we are slowly losing the second M out of it as well. It will be MOG by the time all is said and done. Massive Online Game.

The problem is not so much an enjoyment or captivation of a specific game... but so much that the other reasons you join for are effectively being squashed out. It goes back to the earlier discussion a page or two ago that was talking about human nature with regards to socializing, efficiency and convenience. These are things that MMOs have a way to dissuade or encourage on one side or the other. Lately they focus towards convenience and the player base that is feeling the separation from themselves and the game enjoyment are suffering the negative effects of that convenience.

I felt the same way in UO, as I did EQ, as I did DAOC, as I did Anarchy Online, as I did WoW Vanilla/TBC... I never lost that captivation, and certainly didn't feel like they were the same with a face lift. I felt something much more drawing by those games at that point and time, because there was more to them outside of just the game mechanics.

[May90]

I bought a PS4 (and no i'm not gonna start a Console vs PC war, just for context) and i'm throughly enjoying playing games like Batman Arkham Knight, Witcher 3, Metal Gear Solid Ground Zeroes etc. These games feel so much more rewarding atm because they have a beggining , middle and an end. I never get bored because the game is finished, theres no extra chores to do, everything i'm playing is essencially new content, fresh.

This. In MMO, it is a never ending chain of jobs: what, you've finally beaten this heroic raid and got your gear? Guess what, you are going to have to do this 10 more times to get all the gear pieces. What, you've finally managed that as well? Guess what, there is the next raid, mechanically very similar to the previous one, and you are going to beat it 10 times as well, only to progress to the next raid...
...
What, you've finally beaten all raids, did all the achievements the game has to offer, got all the gier pieces you can possibly get, got all the mounts, etc. and the game has nothing more to offer? Guess what, there is the next expansion coming out in a week, and it will offer 10,000 more hours of chores - go grind some money before it fires up, so you can reduce those 10,000 hours to 9,000!

---

In single player games, in comparison, you clearly see the results of your actions. I am talking about games like Mass Effect or Witcher series, focused on the story, not on grinding like Diablo series. If you kill that boss, you don't have to fight it 10 more times - it will already be dead. Once you are done with the whole story and all the quests (rarely takes more than 100 hours in these games; well, in Witcher 3 it is probably more, but that's an exception), you've completed the game, and you are done with it, unless yo want to replay it once again.
What is 100 hours in an MMO? 4 days /played? It isn't even considered a beginning, just, well, exploring and checking out the game. I had 20 days /played in SWTOR, and I only went through 2 stories out of 8 (out of 16, if you consider playing light and dark characters to be different stories), I hadn't even touched operations ("raids"), only played a few battlegrounds and so on. 480 hours in - and I didn't feel like I made any progress.

I guess MMOs may be good for little kids who have tendency to find a lot of fun in pretty much everything they do, or people with too much spare time on their hands and few goals in life. I have a hard time imagining myself spending 5 hours a day for 5 years on something that doesn't give me much fun during the process of playing, and where the results are virtual "mounts" and other stuff which doesn't exist outside the game and doesn't even really matter in the game itself. Sure, I have probably over 2500 hours total invested in Starcraft 2 - but every minute there is fresh. And when I do get tired of it, I can just stop playing it for a couple of weeks - I don't have any "guilds" with "raiding schedules" or "dailies" which, if missed, will harm me significantly and slow down my "progress".

Bottom line: I play games that give me a large amount of fun throughout the entire process. MMOs feel like fun only when you are celebrating some achievement or getting new gear/mount, which is about 0.01% of the overall time. No, thanks. Even writing this post game me more positive emotions than MMOs give at the same amount of time.

[Scyclone]

This. In MMO, it is a never ending chain of jobs: what, you've finally beaten this heroic raid and got your gear? Guess what, you are going to have to do this 10 more times to get all the gear pieces. What, you've finally managed that as well? Guess what, there is the next raid, mechanically very similar to the previous one, and you are going to beat it 10 times as well, only to progress to the next raid...
...
What, you've finally beaten all raids, did all the achievements the game has to offer, got all the gier pieces you can possibly get, got all the mounts, etc. and the game has nothing more to offer? Guess what, there is the next expansion coming out in a week, and it will offer 10,000 more hours of chores - go grind some money before it fires up, so you can reduce those 10,000 hours to 9,000!

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In single player games, in comparison, you clearly see the results of your actions. I am talking about games like Mass Effect or Witcher series, focused on the story, not on grinding like Diablo series. If you kill that boss, you don't have to fight it 10 more times - it will already be dead. Once you are done with the whole story and all the quests (rarely takes more than 100 hours in these games; well, in Witcher 3 it is probably more, but that's an exception), you've completed the game, and you are done with it, unless yo want to replay it once again.
What is 100 hours in an MMO? 4 days /played? It isn't even considered a beginning, just, well, exploring and checking out the game. I had 20 days /played in SWTOR, and I only went through 2 stories out of 8 (out of 16, if you consider playing light and dark characters to be different stories), I hadn't even touched operations ("raids"), only played a few battlegrounds and so on. 480 hours in - and I didn't feel like I made any progress.

I guess MMOs may be good for little kids who have tendency to find a lot of fun in pretty much everything they do, or people with too much spare time on their hands and few goals in life. I have a hard time imagining myself spending 5 hours a day for 5 years on something that doesn't give me much fun during the process of playing, and where the results are virtual "mounts" and other stuff which doesn't exist outside the game and doesn't even really matter in the game itself. Sure, I have probably over 2500 hours total invested in Starcraft 2 - but every minute there is fresh. And when I do get tired of it, I can just stop playing it for a couple of weeks - I don't have any "guilds" with "raiding schedules" or "dailies" which, if missed, will harm me significantly and slow down my "progress".

Bottom line: I play games that give me a large amount of fun throughout the entire process. MMOs feel like fun only when you are celebrating some achievement or getting new gear/mount, which is about 0.01% of the overall time. No, thanks. Even writing this post game me more positive emotions than MMOs give at the same amount of time.

See thats the thing...

That isn't all there is to MMOs, aside from the current genre of MMOs. Ultima Online, for example, was never like that. There was never any raid bosses (within proper respects of one), there were powerful monsters and dangerous areas, sure, but it was open for exploration or taking up the challenges which pinned cost and risk alongside reward and adventure.

For what it was worth in its time frame, Ultima Online, and loosely Everquest 1, did a great job to make MMOs all about the experience and adventure, not the routine and tedium. Not to say that you didn't have to invest some time and effort in EQ1 or UO to obtain things, it was a symptom of the gameplay, not the purpose. If you spent an hour mining for ore, you'd bring it back to the smiths, smelt it down, make some ingots and raise your skill crafting. Or you would work to get yourself some much better gear. For the longest period of time, crafting was the lifeblood of UO. While you could acquire rare things from monsters that were more powerful, they were far and few between, coupled with the fact that there was no "Kill this monster for your item" type of situations, it all occurred very organically.

To me, the theme park concept of MMOs need to be evolved past, because I feel that the concept of "raid for loot, raid for achievements, raid for mount, do nothing until next expansion, raid for more loot, etc" has removed all concept of experience and adventure and instead just replaced it for a progression path on rails. It really is a bit saddening