The Tedium & Appeal of MMOs

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

So I hop on to FFXIV today, run circles on my L60 AST for several minutes and at last come to the conclusion that I'm already burning out.

Much like WoW, a couple of months into the new expansion, I'm tired of it all; though to be fair WoW isn't nearly as tedious and actually tries to innovate/add things to the game in order to keep it somewhat interesting. That said, the end result is mostly the same anyway.

...Why am I losing my steam?

Simple, I'm getting sick of feeling like I am paying fifteen bucks just to do what I do in real-life. That is work my ass off. Except a real job provides me money that in turn provides fun. You know what these MMOs provide me? More work and headache. You continue turning that hamster wheel at mach speeds or fall behind because lord knows it's all about that carrot and that carrot is another carrot dangling on yet another stick. Fun.

What am I saying?

Again, simple. Where is the fun? Where is the payout? I have virtually no reason to socialize with anyone outside of getting through content, that more often than not, is a bore for me. It's not hard. The only reason its hard is because people are bad. So few elements of my efforts carry over with given updates as well. The one thing I wanted in both games, a proper housing feature, are either horribly implemented(Garrisons) or obscenely costly(not to mention still fleeting in WoW's case) making it somehow an even more of a distant goal(talking about FFXIV here) than clearing encounters on their highest difficulties.

Where is the RPG element? Where is that living, breathing world that you make your mark in?

All I'm seeing today is glorified single-player experiences cashing in on the MMO brand because they can milk you for more money while actually delivering weaker, more anemic content design to literally keep you working for a never ceasing carrot. Forget finding your own path or gleaning joy from a virtual world by feeling like you're truly a part of it.

Want to know why Vanilla WoW was so fun?

It had just enough of that random element without the strict carrot design(most people didn't even raid nor bother with it) to create interesting and memorable moments that were not inherently built into the game. You as a player had some potential to generate your own sphere of influence; therefore, you had a sense of existence within that reality. ...Now you hop on, do your queue/dailies, hop off. That's what MMOs are amounting to. Soulless, pointless products in their entirety. Little more than fancy Facebook games.

I think at this juncture, I'd often rather work overtime or a second job and get something for it. Not digital gear that'll be trashed a patch later.

[ro9ue]

I love many aspects of MMOs, but they all suffer from the same problem: the core combat generally isn't fun.

I love the wide open world.

I love building an avatar.

I love progression a character and collecting gear.

etc


But I don't often find myself playing the game just to play the game... like I do for a FPS or a MOBA. The game itself is just fun, the core combat/mechanics. I don't need a carrot, I don't need anything to motivate me to play. I just play because I like it.

MMOs started with EQ and you would walk up to a mob and hit auto attack and maybe weave in a spell or two. But the open world, seeing other players, building a consistent avatar, etc all were new and awesome.

Same with WoW, though the combat is definitely a little better. But at the end of the day there are very few things I would do in WoW just because it's fun. Honestly the only times I do anything with no reward is like a random dungeon or a WSG random bg. After 10 years you see the treadmill in every other aspect.

Tanaan was enjoyable for about a week. But then I only did it to get the new reps and rewards and as soon as I was done. I never went back.

Heroic dungeons are fun for about 2 weeks. But then you hit 630 and it's like... yeah I'm done.

Reputations aren't even fun for a single day, and you fill the bar and then you're like fuck that never doing that again.



MMOs sadly are all about bars and gear treadmills.


WoW PVP sucks until you grind the gear. I'd much rather play Heroes of the Storm for PVP actually.




If an MMO comes out with a simple ability/combat system like a MOBA or FPS where the fun is just to play it, and it ALSO has the MMO features like open world, seeing other players, cool lore, etc... I will be hooked for life.

I almost thought that was gonna be Destiny but it let me down.

[Niwes]

So I hop on to FFXIV today, run circles on my L60 AST for several minutes and at last come to the conclusion that I'm already burning out.

Much like WoW, a couple of months into the new expansion, I'm tired of it all; though to be fair WoW isn't nearly as tedious and actually tries to innovate/add things to the game in order to keep it somewhat interesting. That said, the end result is mostly the same anyway.

...Why am I losing my steam?

Simple, I'm getting sick of feeling like I am paying fifteen bucks just to do what I do in real-life. That is work my ass off. Except a real job provides me money that in turn provides fun. You know what these MMOs provide me? More work and headache. You continue turning that hamster wheel at mach speeds or fall behind because lord knows it's all about that carrot and that carrot is another carrot dangling on yet another stick. Fun.

What am I saying?

Again, simple. Where is the fun? Where is the payout? I have virtually no reason to socialize with anyone outside of getting through content, that more often than not, is a bore for me. It's not hard. The only reason its hard is because people are bad. So few elements of my efforts carry over with given updates as well. The one thing I wanted in both games, a proper housing feature, are either horribly implemented(Garrisons) or obscenely costly(not to mention still fleeting in WoW's case) making it somehow an even more of a distant goal(talking about FFXIV here) than clearing encounters on their highest difficulties.

Where is the RPG element? Where is that living, breathing world that you make your mark in?

All I'm seeing today is glorified single-player experiences cashing in on the MMO brand because they can milk you for more money while actually delivering weaker, more anemic content design to literally keep you working for a never ceasing carrot. Forget finding your own path or gleaning joy from a virtual world by feeling like you're truly a part of it.

Want to know why Vanilla WoW was so fun?

It had just enough of that random element without the strict carrot design(most people didn't even raid nor bother with it) to create interesting and memorable moments that were not inherently built into the game. You as a player had some potential to generate your own sphere of influence; therefore, you had a sense of existence within that reality. ...Now you hop on, do your queue/dailies, hop off. That's what MMOs are amounting to. Soulless, pointless products in their entirety. Little more than fancy Facebook games.

I think at this juncture, I'd often rather work overtime or a second job and get something for it. Not digital gear that'll be trashed a patch later.

the answer to that is simple: the only reason you dont stop mmos, as they are work (as you mentioned) is that you really want to be in that world. its immersion, its feeling, its fantasy. since the whole industry including wow is now on least-effort-most-money trip, things like deep lore, deep atmosphere, deep world-feeling and quality of those, are lost. the deep identification with the world and that feeling... is gone. what stays is a lackluster facade that tells you: find 100 x kill 100 y. work ! and the fun is gone...

for me thats the major reason. they lost the integral part of a mmo, and thats nothing you can write on a feature list...

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I love many aspects of MMOs, but they all suffer from the same problem: the core combat generally isn't fun.

I love the wide open world.

I love building an avatar.

I love progression a character and collecting gear.

etc


But I don't often find myself playing the game just to play the game... like I do for a FPS or a MOBA. The game itself is just fun, the core combat/mechanics. I don't need a carrot, I don't need anything to motivate me to play. I just play because I like it.

MMOs started with EQ and you would walk up to a mob and hit auto attack and maybe weave in a spell or two. But the open world, seeing other players, building a consistent avatar, etc all were new and awesome.

Same with WoW, though the combat is definitely a little better. But at the end of the day there are very few things I would do in WoW just because it's fun. Honestly the only times I do anything with no reward is like a random dungeon or a WSG random bg. After 10 years you see the treadmill in every other aspect.

Tanaan was enjoyable for about a week. But then I only did it to get the new reps and rewards and as soon as I was done. I never went back.

Heroic dungeons are fun for about 2 weeks. But then you hit 630 and it's like... yeah I'm done.

Reputations aren't even fun for a single day, and you fill the bar and then you're like fuck that never doing that again.



MMOs sadly are all about bars and gear treadmills.


WoW PVP sucks until you grind the gear. I'd much rather play Heroes of the Storm for PVP actually.




If an MMO comes out with a simple ability/combat system like a MOBA or FPS where the fun is just to play it, and it ALSO has the MMO features like open world, seeing other players, cool lore, etc... I will be hooked for life.

I almost thought that was gonna be Destiny but it let me down.

I agree, even just good combat could really elevate the game; however, that actually requires decent tech(for the servers and such) and accepting the idea that you're not going to have everyone's mom and pop playing as a result.

What finally made me give up on FFXIV is building up my crafting/gathering classes for weeks on end just to try and have my own home that I could decor. Something that they could have built into the game similar to Wildstar where you earn all kinds of housing items from doing what you like to do best and the house itself is so cheap anyone and everyone has it.

So, I spent all of my time, doing what I feel is a fairly miserable aspect of the game, in order to enjoy another that in games past was more of a side thing to enhance and personalize your overall experience. Everything in that game and so many current MMOs are just there to drag everything else out to the extreme and I'm tired of it. Grind is fine if you can make it fun. Grind for the sake of grind? That's just bad design.

All they've done lately is taken the personality of the games and diluted them to baser forms with some clever gimmicks in order to avoid them being painfully blatant.

[Pull My Finger]

Where is the RPG element? Where is that living, breathing world that you make your mark in?

In good offline games. It's technically unrealistic to expect those qualities from multiplayer games, especially online. It's quite the contradiction.

Want to know why Vanilla WoW was so fun?

It had just enough of that random element without the strict carrot design(most people didn't even raid nor bother with it) to create interesting and memorable moments that were not inherently built into the game. You as a player had some potential to generate your own sphere of influence; therefore, you had a sense of existence within that reality. ...Now you hop on, do your queue/dailies, hop off. That's what MMOs are amounting to. Soulless, pointless products in their entirety.

I'm not really a fan of melodramatic lingo like "soulless, pointless" etc. But doing your daily/regular stuff and then logging off IS what MMOs are. You had the most fun in Vanilla because it wasn't an expansion. That was the phase of sinking your teeth into the original core of the game. It wasn't the part of the game where they had to artificially reset the progression path and stretch and sustain an "endgame" of a game you already experienced.

No matter how much you perhaps think MMO devs should go back to the old "model" or whatever ... these games feeling stale and lifeless after a while is a given; it's just the fact that the "endgame" and expansions are a prolongation of something that you're actually already through with. The journeyman years can't be recreated, virginity can't be restored. DLCs and "bonus content" feel the same. Technically it's the same kind of gameplay, and it is somewhat fun, but it just isn't the same, it always feels somewhat detached and tacked on. It's not part of the core experience and can't be, because it isn't integral, it's just an infusion for people who want more.

It just isn't really reasonable to expect a game that you play all the time, every day, for months and years, to keep you super-engaged and fascinated. Would you expect an orgasm of taste after eating hot dogs for lunch for 6 months straight?

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

In good offline games. It's technically unrealistic to expect those qualities from multiplayer games, especially online. It's quite the contradiction.



I'm not really a fan of melodramatic lingo like "soulless, pointless" etc. But doing your daily/regular stuff and then logging off IS what MMOs are. You had the most fun in Vanilla because it wasn't an expansion. That was the phase of sinking your teeth into the original core of the game. It wasn't the part of the game where they had to artificially reset the progression path and stretch and sustain an "endgame" of a game you already experienced.

No matter how much you perhaps think MMO devs should go back to the old "model" or whatever ... these games feeling stale and lifeless after a while is a given; it's just the fact that the "endgame" and expansions are a prolongation of something that you're actually already through with. The journeyman years can't be recreated, virginity can't be restored. DLCs and "bonus content" feel the same. Technically it's the same kind of gameplay, and it is somewhat fun, but it just isn't the same, it always feels somewhat detached and tacked on. It's not part of the core experience and can't be, because it isn't integral, it's just an infusion for people who want more.

It just isn't really reasonable to expect a game that you play all the time, every day, for months and years, to keep you super-engaged and fascinated. Would you expect an orgasm of taste after eating hot dogs for lunch for 6 months straight?

Soulless I believe was on the mark, regardless of how you personally feel towards the term's application.

The issue is that the developer keeps trying to force me to be engaged with every new product(by having me run through carefully crafted though straight-forward mazes) rather than realizing that they could do more by expanding upon their world, the tools within it, and letting players have a lot more control over their experiences. There is nothing wrong with injecting some sandbox elements into a themepark MMO, nothing wrong with it at all. To help make up for some of the interaction/connectivity lost through new tech presented that really hurt the social aspect of the game which was often the most meaningful for older players.

Same with combat. The more options/approaches over combat you have, the more enjoyable it tends to become. MMOs today seem to defer towards strict systems with little to no deviation which is a crying shame considering their source material. Hence the lack of soul or life in the product which has only become more severe with each continued expansion. Lord forbid players have choices rather than being herded like cattle towards the next raid.

[Mormolyce]

I think a lot of people make the mistake of looking backwards with MMOs. Vanilla only worked because it was 2004 and it hadn't really been done before (outside of EQ which was fairly niche by comparison). Release that thing today and it would be a laughingstock. I think if you want to breathe new life into MMOs you need to think forward instead. Start again and challenge a lot of existing parameters of MMORPGs.

Do we need levels?

Do we need gear?

Things to think about.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I think a lot of people make the mistake of looking backwards with MMOs. Vanilla only worked because it was 2004 and it hadn't really been done before (outside of EQ which was fairly niche by comparison). Release that thing today and it would be a laughingstock. I think if you want to breathe new life into MMOs you need to think forward instead. Start again and challenge a lot of existing parameters of MMORPGs.

Do we need levels?

Do we need gear?

Things to think about.

I wasn't touting Vanilla WoW as a great game in of itself but rather noting why it was popular... and it sure as hell wasn't the raiding that did it. I have fond memories of Vanilla because of those early social interactions and the fights in Southshore. I remember gathering groups to storm dungeons and you got to know these people more intimately as a result, like a real adventure.

All that feeling of wonder and being part of something greater is gone now. They've done nothing to retain it nor try to encourage it anew. In fact some of their latest attempts would make you think that they're completely ignorant as to what went on in their game prior to the expansions or even why RPGs(like say the Witcher) are so fascinating to many people.

Bring back that awe, that sense of community, adventure, and danger. Give people the tools to have their own experiences.

[zito]

Have you tried non theme park MMOs? GW2 or GW1 for example?

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Have you tried non theme park MMOs? GW2 or GW1 for example?

GW1 is a bit too aged for me(hell it was rough then but I liked it). As for GW2, it started feeling similar; though I've been keeping an eye on the expansion which looks promising.

Archeage I thought was going to be a big deal for me and like most Asian-based MMOs... it flopped. Really would like to see a western developer with a lot of backing take on something similar.

[Pull My Finger]

Soulless I believe was on the mark, regardless of how you personally feel towards the term's application.

It's not, quite contrary, it's a rather diffuse and ultimately meaningless sentiment, because it can only describe how the game resonates with you on an individually emotional level. Do digits, polygons, textures, variables and zone maps have a "soul"? How is that measured? How can it end up being anything else than you sorting things that you like and don't like into the categories of "has soul" and "soulless"?

[zito]

GW1 is still my favorite MMO I've ever played. It might be aged but it's still really good

[Fencers]

Lately, I have been longing for a good MMORPG. Been craving one badly but I am unsatisfied by what is on offer to me mostly because of the shallowness of the gameplay systems.

Depth in gameplay is an aspect I am always looking for in a game. Especially so in a game I intend to play long term and devote a lot of time to; typically MMORPGs.

I don't crave a "living world" or necessary social interaction in these games. However, I am craving meaningful and thoughtful PVE game systems.

Kinda not finding it lately. Might try my hand at FF14 again but ehhh.

[Independent voter]

Wildstar is going free 2 play soon, sometime in the Fall. I've heard good things about it and plan on trying it out.

[TheLittleBeast]

I've linked this in a few threads already, I'll leave it here:

The mistake game developers/designers make is not adapting to their player base fast enough, if at all. Players have simply outgrown the game. Imagine being taught algebra for years, you will not only grow bored but also intolerant of your teacher. Players need to feel engaged, they need to feel like they are learning while playing. The less players know, the more engaged they will feel when playing the game.

The vast majority of MMORPGs (read: all of them) are operating under the same system. One that we, as player, have already mastered years ago. Sure, we are not knowledgable of all things algebra, but if we are given a problem set to solve, there's nothing time wouldn't permit us to achieve. This is the same issue with the ever-perpetuated design paradigm MMORPGs thrive in. Suspend for a moment the idea of wanting combat, the urge to kill ineffectual monsters, the idea of replay value, or wanting to play with friends, or even having to play a physical character.

Think not of an MMORPG but rather a feeling, an instant in time, or perhaps the cycles of human biology. When we categorize what a game should be or how it should play, that's exactly what we are going to get; every time.

[Feel The Power]

I completely feel the OP on how MMOs can be more of a second job itself at times, basically negating fun to chase whatever carrot. There are many times WoW for example is basically a chore, especially when you've been playing it for many years and you realize that basically whatever you're working on grinding out or farming at the present time won't really mean jack months or years down the line. I mean how is that Hydraxian Waterlords rep at exalted treating you now after you basically wanted to kill yourself grinding it out for months doing MC 10 years ago? MMo's are a weird thing, I've been playing video games since like 1981, I grew up on all the rpg games for the various systems, and (as an example) never back then did I ever feel like "fuck, this is gonna be a boring chore" as I was turning on my snes to play FF3 for the night. I wouldn't have played games that I had to do things on a regular basis that I did not enjoy doing...yet once I discovered MMO's it was a different story for me.
I dunno, for me WoW was my first mmo, it's been the game I've gotten the most longevity and fun out of by far, yet there is just sooo much bleh to it at the same time, and the chore-ness of other mmo's is what has basically kept me from ever advancing too far in any other game. I just feel as if I am wasting my time building up a character in another game when I could be bettering my main WoW toon that I've put like 10 years into.

[Hellravager]

Rift definitely has that bleh about it with the rep grinds and the item enchantments locked to those rep factions without those item enchantments GL finding a raiding group XD Tera same deal +12 only >.>

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I completely feel the OP on how MMOs can be more of a second job itself at times, basically negating fun to chase whatever carrot. There are many times WoW for example is basically a chore, especially when you've been playing it for many years and you realize that basically whatever you're working on grinding out or farming at the present time won't really mean jack months or years down the line. I mean how is that Hydraxian Waterlords rep at exalted treating you now after you basically wanted to kill yourself grinding it out for months doing MC 10 years ago? MMo's are a weird thing, I've been playing video games since like 1981, I grew up on all the rpg games for the various systems, and (as an example) never back then did I ever feel like "fuck, this is gonna be a boring chore" as I was turning on my snes to play FF3 for the night. I wouldn't have played games that I had to do things on a regular basis that I did not enjoy doing...yet once I discovered MMO's it was a different story for me.
I dunno, for me WoW was my first mmo, it's been the game I've gotten the most longevity and fun out of by far, yet there is just sooo much bleh to it at the same time, and the chore-ness of other mmo's is what has basically kept me from ever advancing too far in any other game. I just feel as if I am wasting my time building up a character in another game when I could be bettering my main WoW toon that I've put like 10 years into.

Honestly the game needs a huge fundamental shift OR a clean slate. A decade really is a long time for any title and WoW's aged internal mechanisms are beginning to really show. The combat for one is painfully boring compared to most new products; though not all of that is entirely due to aging. Their philosophies are also screwy leaving classes feeling shorted, impotent, and without any real substance. Nothing you do really feels like has any impact or power behind it and that's a combination of poor mechanics combined with poor visual design.

They also keep designing their endgame as a very evident, painfully obvious treadmill. The questing experience can be rather pleasant and enjoyable but you get to the end of the title(WoD's downfall) and you're suddenly hit with old school tedium, minus any of the charm. Whilst talking about "fun" being their main goal, they somehow suck it out of the entirety of the endgame experience EXCEPT for maybe raiding. Even then we could probably spend sometime arguing how much people actually enjoying raiding in its current vision.

Proper housing where housing items drop in dungeons, from many achievements, hunting the world over, etc - a must in my opinion to add that personal touch and drop the quest-hub tripe. More customization for existing characters rather than more races. Visual/mechanical overhaul of all classes rather than another class. Greater emphasis on giving players the tools to create their own fun and make their own way in the end game versus simply pulling them along by their nostrils and hammering raiding into their skulls.

...Basically, they should do just about the opposite of what they've been doing in nearly every category save maybe the actual leveling process. Make entire endgame zones feel dangerous, ominous, perhaps even terrifying but with great reward that comes with the risk of delving into them with a lot of random elements to have it be fresh again and again Diablo style. The deeper and longer you delve, the more you gain, but the greater your chance of losing it all can be if you don't back out.

The endgame really should be the true beginning of your personal adventure, outside of the main story line. Creating zones dedicated toward the endgame is an interesting concept that I like, it's just troubling because again 90% of it is simply another escalation towards raiding. Raiding has to become an offshoot, not the end all and be all. Otherwise we'll be stuck in this current standard.

- - - Updated - - -

Lately, I have been longing for a good MMORPG. Been craving one badly but I am unsatisfied by what is on offer to me mostly because of the shallowness of the gameplay systems.

Depth in gameplay is an aspect I am always looking for in a game. Especially so in a game I intend to play long term and devote a lot of time to; typically MMORPGs.

I don't crave a "living world" or necessary social interaction in these games. However, I am craving meaningful and thoughtful PVE game systems.

Kinda not finding it lately. Might try my hand at FF14 again but ehhh.

If you're not feeling WoW right now I cannot recommend FFXIV. Its endgame is even more blatantly meek.

The only reason I've enjoyed it as I have is due to nostalgia being an FF fan. If it wasn't for that, I'd probably actually qualify the game as shit with the main story-line(for HW that is) being a tragedy in that it's so good, yet stuffed into such a pathetic, shallow MMO experience... That's not a joke either. It's genuinely a shame how much effort was clearly put into it while everything is damn near deplorable.

I mean for crying out loud, we were screaming for more inventory space back in ARR and their counter to that was to force us to buy two retainers with real money. A dollar each but it's still pretty messed up when you consider how desperately you'll need(mind you they are not accessible if you fail to continue paying for them every month) that space. Then comes their expansion and they do nothing to improve inventory while adding a load more crafting/gathering materials, more gear, and of course new class types with yet even more gear.

That alone is infuriating and I haven't even gotten to how the game still has loads of lag where you'll have a spell at 25% complete(casting that is) and you move out of a telegraphed attack and still have that spell go off. This unfortunately also works in reverse, as in, you can move, stop, start casting a spell and it'll interrupt about 20% of the way through as if you were still in motion.

FFXIV HW for me rates at about a 7/10 due to the story, nostalgia, and fun encounters. It'd easily rate a 5/10 without the story and perhaps a 4/10 without the nostalgia. The fun encounters simply wouldn't undo how bad the rest of the game is. Call me brutal but I feel that's a very fair and unbiased view.

That all said, I agree, the market really needs something to shake things up. All I am aware of is GW2's expansion(they seem to be taking their original formula and improving upon it so good for them) around the corner and Black Desert Online, which, while it looks promising... is yet another Korean developed MMO. We could witness the "Archeage fiasco" very easily once more.

[May90]

I haven't touched MMOs in many months and I don't think I ever will. The reason is simple: they are all nowadays focused on "achievement", not on gameplay. You don't go to do those 10 quests because you enjoy them, there is nothing to enjoy in 2-shotting those 20 wolves or picking those 10 herbs; you do them because you will get XP, money, gear and achievements from them. But the process of getting all this lasts a few seconds, while the process of doing those 10 quests lasts 2 hours. In other words, it seems like a dull and boring job, on which you work 40 hours a week with 0 enjoyment, only being happy a few seconds once you get your next paycheck. Only, in MMOs you don't get any paycheck, plus sometimes you even have to pay for playing them.

[Tech614]

If not for the social and teamwork aspect MMOs are trash.

This is nothing new though, there has never been an MMO that I think is an objectively well designed game. It has always been the community aspect that makes or breaks them.

Clunky gameplay, lack of polish, tedious walls, etc. Basically you put mechanics like that in a non MMO and it gets a 30/100 metacritic and ran out of town. The gameplay in all MMOs sucks, so play the one you and your friends can enjoy the most.