Do warlocks have an off spec? (or any pure dps classes)

[djones0305]

I would say no if gear was how it used to be. Because offspec concludes that it is a piece of gear (usually) for another specialization that uses a different primary stat (int, str, agi). But since gear flips stats now based on what spec you are in, I am pressured to say yes. Because ultimately, the pieces that switch stats that people roll off spec on are really just going for secondary stat optimization, which is what the warlock was doing. Obviously when it comes to things like trinkets, necks, rings, and weapons, this is not the case. Now the stat switching stuff doesn't apply to cloth wearers because all cloth gear is intellect-only. But in the case of a neck (assuming it doesn't have spirit in this example), a warlock (pure dps) and a paladin (who has lets say a holy and ret spec) I would think should both have fair rolls on it if they both want it. If they both have the same ilvl necklace but the one that dropped has better stats for each of their specs, then I would probably say fair roll. Though I think it should just be common consideration between the players to say which one it will benefit more based on how much you play those specs when you raid.

But looking at your examples, I would say that warlock would be considered greedy if he is trying to get a necklace that has better stats, or even the SAME necklace that he can just enchant differently, over someone who probably needs it more. I'm not sure how much gear is funneling to this warlock, but generally speaking you should just gem and enchant mastery so that it is optimal for both destruction and affliction. The stat weight between haste and mastery for affliction and crit/mastery for destruction is very miniscule. So much so that having a 75 haste enchant over a 75 mastery enchant is probably only going to make maybe a 30-50 dps increase. Really it's just an issue that I think is blown up way more than needs to be. Min/maxing is a difficult thing to really nail anymore. Definitely possible but so much of our dps is no longer in our hands anymore due to trinkets and other procs, so it's not really a big deal unless absolutely NOBODY needs the gear. But I can almost guarantee you that if you switch between two enchants and hit the target dummy for 5 minutes, your dps is going to be most likely the same void of a lucky string of RNG trinket procs.

Sorry, lots of words.

tldr: If absolutely nobody else needs the piece, let the warlock have it. If it is a matter of better stats for the warlock and someone else who serves two different roles, I would say fair roll; but communication is always good. I've always run into more generous people than greedy people.

[Alltat]

I'd consider both specs a "pure" DPS has as their main specs if they actively use both in raids. It doesn't seem fair to say that a demo-by-default lock can't have destruction gear just because most people aren't as good at playing their off specs, if that player clearly has the skills and experience to do it. Learning to play more than one spec and switching depending on the fight is something that should be encouraged, as it benefits the raid.

If that allows people to game your loot system then you're probably screwed anyway.

[Sesshomaru]

Just my 2 cents.
I've been playing Warlock since Jan. 2007 and has been rather casual as I find it more fun doing semi-hard stuff (normal HFC, as an example) with capable people rather than playing with toxic people screaming out to Hunters for getting the Blademaster trinket (Hellfire High Council). Although stat-wise, it's kind of horrible, but the trinket effect makes a rather good use for aoe.

Sorry, derailed a bit there. As a Warlock and seeing the new Tanaan Jungle, I've found it easier to get capable item pieces by rolling Peerless/Feverflare (Crit+Mastery / Haste+Mastery) for my Destruction & Affliction sets, even spending 50k Apexis to finally be able to roll a Peerless ring for my Destruction set. I had an honest thought back in TBC/Wrath before I seriously thought of optimizing the gear of simply wearing the "strongest" set around. "Got more spell damage on belt, but less stamina and more intellect? Sure, I'll take it" said the Lock with 8k hp and 12k mana.

Frankly speaking, having off-sets even for pure dps classes brings up the dps on certain boss fights. Good example for Locks are Hellfire High Council & Xhul'horac. HHC is a cleave fight along with how Maidens were, and just like them having multi-dots up gives more action per minute rather than Destruction with it's 15s/50s cd Havoc, likewise with Xhul'horac and it's everspawning minions. Shadowburn, Shadowburn-Havoc cleave-burst all day. Going for stats in the attuned spec (and how abilities interact) or going by stat weights alone is far better than having just a single set of mixed/targeted for one spec alone.

That goes for the truly dedicated one, however, as some might feel guilty for receiving a piece which other's might've seen as an upgrade. As far as how Warlocks are doing, Destruction do gain a benefit for haste due to the burning ember resource we have, although the crit would be rather more valuable.
Mastery for life! (Although I really, really do love Demos)

[laughtrey]

No. This system is so abused it's not even funny. Pures have no offspec. Because here is what happens. Affliction lock sees a 15 ilvl upgrade boots with mastery and ms. They don't see they're favorite stat on it, so they game the system and get a free upgrade without having to spend ep or dkp. It's greedy, and it's screwing over your fellow raiders.

People act like gear is garbage if it doesn't have their best secondary sta on it. Blizz needs to get rid of attunement stats. Because players aren't responsible enough for them.

Intellect is worth more than crit/haste/mastery. The upgrade is almost always ilevel, regardless of stats. There are a few exceptions, but if a point system isn't taking into account an ilevel upgrade because it doesn't have the preferred stats, that's on the person in charge of loot, not whoevers getting it.

[Deleted]

Hurr? What about those who genuinely hate affliction with passion like me? I only play affliction when I have like no choice at all, as in it is so superior for that encounter that it simply makes no sense to not play it there.

For me Affliction is my offspec clearly and I am not going to hog all the haste gear that I don't give a damn about over other guys in my team just so I could get slightly higher numbers on like 2 encounters this tier.

So yeah, it makes no sense taking, for example, haste gear over a guy who genuinely needs it all the time if you only need it like 10% of the time.

Do you tell people you play a Warlock or do you tell people you play a Destruction Warlock? This is the key thing for me. I might be a bit harsh in my statement but my opinion on the matter remains true.

In this instance, the Warlock is taking gear that benefits all of his specs. I firmly believe he should be charged full points for the item if he is going to make a case for wanting it.

[Luis Oscar]

What if the warlock already had the neck with the same ilvl but enchanted for mastery? and wanted it to enchant it with haste since otherwise it would be disenchanted. (since no one else wants it)

Should he be charged in full still for trying to optimize this way?

[Locknrollen]

Simplest solution to your problem is to not run dkp. A lootcouncil i superior in every way.

As for a pure dps having an offspecc - i press OS if i want an item for affliction in my raids, and thats only because there isnt any better alternative. but there is nothing I hate more in this game then pure dps Calling themselves for example "destro warlock", "arcane mage" or even "arms" or "fury" warrior. i Believe that if you are going to play in my Guild youre a warlock, period. not a "destro warlock". and you should be able to play all of your speccs equally well.

Ofcourse this isnt the case in less serious Guilds.

[Seezer]

Clearly you didn't bother reading the OP as none of the things you say apply. But i'll still talk about YOUR stated cases.

1) Affliction lock sees a 15 ilvl upgrade boots with mastery and ms. They don't see they're favorite stat on it, so they game the system and get a free upgrade without having to spend ep or dkp. It's greedy, and it's screwing over your fellow raiders.

No one said its free, they are still paying the "Offspec" price, and IF later in time a similar ilvl drops with BETTER stats, the lock will bid for it as MAIN SPEC this time, so technically the price is higher, no one is screwing no one over. In fact its helping the raid. Why? because by bidding on it as OS they automatically lose priority over ANYONE who would need it as main spec, thus only getting the item when it would otherwise be disenchanted, and still paying a small dkp price, again NOT FREE.


2) And if you're rolling offspec on clear upgrades because you're trying to hoard points, then you better not wear that piece on your main spec. Again, you're screwing your fellow raiders over do you can keep points for tier, trunkets, or weps

As a warlock myself, i can only talk on behalf of warlocks, but im sure other classes are under a similar situation. The loot in question is only an upgrade in 2 situations, 1, when the stat favors their "offspec" which is affli, which the lock probably only uses in 2 or 3 fights at most. that is technically what u described as being in their bag most of the time. and 2, if what they currently posses is lower past the stats threshold value to what they currently have.

Note that both examples assume the lock ALREADY has a similar loot (same ilvl) but with stats more suitable for destro. And if the lock had a 705 ilvl item with (int + mastery + crit/haste) and the look that dropped was 715 with lets say multistrike and vesatility or haste, it would still NOT BE an upgrade for their destro spec which brings it back to the previous result. The item will still be in their bags most of the time and they will still try to bid for a higher ilvl item with more favorable stats.


3) Optimal is something you reach slowly. You don't not roll on an upgrade because it isnt optimal. Hybrids have offspecs because agility has zero benefit to a boomkin. All cloth gear has value to a warlock. That's why hybruds have offspec.

This sounds WAY more greedy and loot hoarding. Because if you try to get anything that is just a small upgrade for you, but could be a big upgrade for someone else, you care just either depriving them from the item or simply inflating the dkp bids they can make resulting in them having less dkp to bid after for really important items (tier/trinkets/weapons). Doesn't that mess up with the guild progression even more?

Except that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking specifically about pieces that are significant upgrades for people, but they don't want to roll main spec on it because they want to hoard their points. This happens especially with pieces like bracers, rings, necks. I've seen pures try to roll offspec on a piece of gear that is 40 ilvls higher than the piece they have. Because "it doesn't have multistrike on it". That's what I'm talking about. That's being greedy.

"Because if you try to get anything that is just a small upgrade for you, but could be a big upgrade for someone else.". That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about that person who an item is a big upgrade for not wanting to main spec roll on it because it doesn't have their attunement stat. You're trying twist it into me wanting to take a big item from them. I mean, if it's a big item they should be main spec rolling so they can get it right?

"you care just either depriving them from the item or simply inflating the dkp bids they can make resulting in them having less dkp to bid after for really important items (tier/trinkets/weapons)" - Again, you're making up these weird scenarios. I'll simplify it for you. If you're going to wear a piece of gear for your main spec, and it's a significant ilvl upgrade, you shouldn't be wanting to take that item as an offspec item so you can save points for a trinket. If I'm rolling main spec on a piece of gear that doesn't have my favorite stat on it, yet is a significant ilvl upgrade, so are you. Has nothing to do with "Inflating" anything. It's about people being fair and doing the right thing.

Plain and simple. If you're a pure, and you're rolling offspec on a piece of gear, and then wearing it on your main spec, you're being a greedy douche canoe.

- - - Updated - - -

Intellect is worth more than crit/haste/mastery. The upgrade is almost always ilevel, regardless of stats. There are a few exceptions, but if a point system isn't taking into account an ilevel upgrade because it doesn't have the preferred stats, that's on the person in charge of loot, not whoevers getting it.

This is kind of my point. People are so psycho over secondary stats anymore, they look at a piece of gear that doesn't have their attunement stat on it as "garbage".

[Fabinas]

Haste/Multistrike gear (which seems plentiful in HFC) are vastly inferior for Destros than any Crit/Mastery or Mastery/Multistrike gear, if we are comparing one difficulty tier (Heroic H/Ms to Normal C/M, for example). You obviously have to sim, but as a general rule, just saying...

[Luis Oscar]

I completely understand your point, but the scenarios you are describing are not the ones considered on the original post. Maybe i failed to give the full picture of what happened in the guild, which is why you keep talking about huge ilvl increases and them being greedy.

Let me put it very simple, the discussion in the guild emerged because of the following situation.

1) Neck dropped (don't remember the stats)

2) Officer asked for dkp bids

3) No one bid for main spec (Off spec bids always have priority)

4) Only the warlock bid for off spec with the minimal bid

4.5) The warlock already had exactly the same neck of the same ilvl enchanted with mastery and wanted it to be able to enchant it with haste to optimize for affliction single target.

5) Officer gave neck to lock for 5 dkp

6) Half of the guild started bitching about it because "PURE DPS classes don't have an off spec".


Now ask yourself, should people be paying full price for items who they won't be using most of the time (Because they already have a similar ilvl item with their attuned stats, or because they will enchant something else on them), and if they don't bid for them will end up being de'd anyways?

Its kind of punishing on people who are trying to optimize to squeeze more dps, because doing so will make it so that they have less dkp when it comes to items that are a major upgrade to everyone.

[Deleted]

tbh if ppl dont get that as a "pure dps class" you might have different stat weights depending on spec then they are really clueless. ofc with that said, there really isnt a high enough gear diversity that we as locks can have more than 1 pieces of gear for each slot coz we want mastery, nothing else matters, and there are usually only 1 piece with that in each slot, so it solves itself.

[andromalia]

If your loot system is punishing players for playing the optimal spec per encounter, especially when you say no one wanted the item over shard, your loot system needs some work.

[Astynax]

Most of the time I'd consider destro to be main with afflic offspec. IMO the difference is due to using afflic much less and some items do matter if swapped such as trinkets.

If someone will use the same trinket as their "main" and use it much more than I do, I wouldnt have an issue having them get it over me. For the most part, the other slots will use the same items so it wouldnt matter as MS vs OS

[Soulzar]

Instead of Off Spec, it should be Off Role.

A Mage, Lock, Rogue, etc swapping specs to min/max the toolkit/performance to the encounter is entirely different than your Holy Paladin swapping to Prot.

In this particular case, its the loot system at fault.. allowing a Player to sidegrade at the expense of a co raider missing a larger upgrade.