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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    As soon as you give Meta to another class, it is no longer an iconic Warlock ability.
    It's never been an iconic warlock ability. Like death coil (a death knight spell that warlocks learned), it's a demon hunter ability that warlocks learned. It's NEVER been iconic for locks- it's just something they got. Ideally, they'd keep it and it would be renamed, because of course demon hunters need to learn it for reals. It's sort of their kit after Illidan metomorphed.


    Just because they made a bad call by giving a demon hunter spell to a lock doesn't mean that they have to never make demon hunters.


    I recall you around here at WoD time, saying much the same stuff. It wasn't correct then, and it isn't correct now. Demon Hunters should be coming up soon. If they aren't, well, bad on Blizz.

  2. #202
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Who said take it away?
    If you give ANY other class the ability to turn into a Demon - it doesn't matter what you call the spell, how it works in gameplay or what mechanics or aesthetic is used - you will, by definition take away something unique from Warlocks. Something iconic. Something highly associated with the class. Something many Warlocks value.

    It is bad enough and causes enough trouble when such abilities are changed for balance or gameplay purposes. To do so simply because you don't want the ability to be unique? That you don't want Warlocks to have that uniqueness? Without even the excuse of gameplay necessity but only that you value another class more?

    EJL

  3. #203
    Dreadlord Steampunk's Avatar
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    If wishes were horses.

    I don't think Blizzard has enough cumulative lore fans on retainer anymore to finally give us Demon Hunters.

    I have a feeling that the Avatar of Sargeras and Demon Hunters will come out as a last ditch if Activision thinks about ditching Blizzard.
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    Lacking ammo, the forum troll darts into the realm of personal insults and doomsaying; the most primitive means of gaining attention from its peers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyadore View Post
    You know something, none of us ruined the game. We make it better. And so do most of you.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Paladins cast spells too. So do Death Knights. And Enh Shamans. Heck, even Ferals have a talent to cast moonfire in kitty form. Doesn't mean they're casters though.
    No, they are casters. What they aren't is *just* casters. They can't just spam those spells and be as effective as a mage casting can be.

  5. #205
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by XorMalice View Post
    It's never been an iconic warlock ability.
    Blizzard described it as an iconic ability alongside DS around Cata. It's an ability that is associated with Warlocks and no other player class. Most players see it as iconic, something that is highly recognisable and screams the user is a Warlock.

    EJL

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    If you give ANY other class the ability to turn into a Demon - it doesn't matter what you call the spell, how it works in gameplay or what mechanics or aesthetic is used - you will, by definition take away something unique from Warlocks.
    EJL
    That's where you're mistaken though. It was never unique to Warlocks to begin with. Demon Hunters had them since Warcraft 3, and everyone knows it. It's not a surprise if Demon Hunters get that ability back if they get implemented as a class.

    Warlocks retain their identity as a Demon Summoner and Fel Sorcerer class archetype. Turning into a demon form was never mutually exclusive to Warlocks to begin with. The lore itself came from observing and adapting the technique from a completely separate class.

    The same type of lore is seen in Tauren Seers and Sunwalkers, where they adapted their use of Sun magic to become Priests and Paladins. This shows that multiple classes can share the same source of magic without being the same class. Seers and Sunwalkers aren't 'cloth-wearing druids' and 'armored druids', they're different classes.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2015-08-04 at 06:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  7. #207
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Yeah, but you can live with it.
    If Warlocks can live without Meta, then so can DHs. And Warlocks have it now.

    EJL

  8. #208
    Herald of the Titans Azerox's Avatar
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    Suprise! Everyone gets a 4th spec.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    you will, by definition take away something unique from Warlocks
    It's not even unique to warlocks now. There's demon hunters who can cast this already. They just aren't PCs.

    Locks never had a unique lock on meta. They just copied it. If demon hunters are around, then players will finally have the original version of meta available to them, unlike now.


    I don't think anyone wants demo locks to lose meta. I'd like it if they had never gained it, but that ship has sailed for reasons you point out. But obviously the game needs demon hunters at some point, and when they add them, obviously they'll have their iconic spells. It's not iconic for locks. Shadow bolt is iconic for locks. Death coil is not. Meta is not.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    That's where you're mistaken though. It was never unique to Warlocks to begin with. Demon Hunters had them since Warcraft 3, and everyone knows it. It's not a surprise if Demon Hunters get that ability back if they get implemented as a class.

    Warlocks retain their identity as a Demon Summoner and Fel Sorcerer class archetype.
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta. And is there any reason you think DHs should get the spell instead of Warlocks? Why are DHs more important than a player class which exists?

    EJL

  11. #211
    I think it would be very weird if they didn't get it. Kind of a like a cobra without any venom.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    It's not a surprise if Demon Hunters get that ability back if they get implemented as a class.
    It's not even "back". There are demon hunters in game right now that cast meta- they are just NPCs. In lore, the locks just learned the spell or something.

    I could make the same argument that Bloodlust is iconic to Shamans, but now they gave the same spell to Mages. It was a class unique buff that was shared to another class. I didn't see Innervate being given to any other classes. You don't see anyone complaining do you?

    Well, in lore, those aren't the same spell. They just are identical in mechanics, and that's because it's a buff. I'd expect the DH meta to actually be different in mechanics to a degree.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.
    Wait 4 days and maybe you can see for yourself.

    And is there any reason you think DHs should get the spell instead of Warlocks? Why are DHs more important than a player class which exists?
    Why instead? Warlocks can keep Meta. DH can gain Dark Apotheosis, which is no longer a Warlock ability. Both parties are satisfied, and mechanics AND aesthetics are different for each.

    As Blizzard already implied, ranged tanking doesn't really suit the game. Warlock tanking was simply too niche and not properly designed for Cloth Casters. Reappropriating the ability and gameplay for a new class makes sense. The whole kit would be redesigned from the ground up to make sense out of demon form tanking gameplay for a class properly designed to tank. We saw this with dual wield tanking taken away from Frost DK's and later reappearing in a differnt form for the Monk.

    You can't take away what is already gone.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2015-08-04 at 07:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  14. #214
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by XorMalice View Post
    It's not even unique to warlocks now. There's demon hunters who can cast this already. They just aren't PCs.
    That just PC Warlocks have it IS the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Why instead? Warlocks can keep Meta. DH can gain Dark Apotheosis, which is no longer a Warlock ability. Both parties are satisfied, and mechanics AND aesthetics are different for each.
    Either way - you destroy Warlock uniqueness and remove an iconic ability form them simply because you want another class to have it.

    As Blizzard already implied, ranged tanking doesn't really suit the game. Warlock tanking was simply too niche and not properly designed for Cloth Casters. Reappropriating the ability and gameplay for a new class makes sense. The whole kit would be redesigned from the ground up to make sense out of demon form tanking gameplay for a class properly designed to tank. We saw this with dual wield tanking taken away from Frost DK's and later reappearing in a differnt form for the Monk.

    You can't take away what is already gone.
    It was never there. Any Warlock tank would be designed as a melee class precisely because the game isn't buiult around ranged tanking.

    EJL

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Either way - you destroy Warlock uniqueness and remove an iconic ability form them simply because you want another class to have it.
    Dark Apotheosis was taken away a long time ago. It's no longer even relevant. I'd hardly call that 'iconic' to the class.

    It was never there. Any Warlock tank would be designed as a melee class precisely because the game isn't buiult around ranged tanking.
    You understand that a Warlock Tank spec and a Demon Hunter class are not mutually exclusive right? There is room for both in the same game, given that Blizzard is willing to take on the task of adding 4th specs in the game. We can have a Warlock Tanking spec that has different gameplay from a Demon Hunter tanking spec. The fact we have two Holy Healing specs breaks down all arguments of any class having exclusivity over any given theme or concept.

    And to be perfectly frank, their tanking styles are already obviously different. Warlocks rely on their Demon Form for mitigation and self heal/life drains for sustain. Demon Hunters rely on avoidance (dodge/parry) while using Demon Form as a health boost cooldown. This is literally their gameplay as it exists in War3 and HOTS.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2015-08-04 at 07:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Either way - you destroy Warlock uniqueness and remove an iconic ability form them simply because you want another class to have it.
    You would deny another class an ability that it had before the warlock simply because you think warlocks need a unique ability to be kewl. How about some classes start to bitch how they used to have unique buffs that hunter pets now can provide?

    Please, grow up. This is just silly.

  17. #217
    Ugh, Demon Hunter fans are the worst.

  18. #218
    Arguing against demon hunter is like arguing religion, it is so taxing.

    The horrible reality is, even after gamescon when everyone finds out it isn't going to be demon hunter because demon hunter won't work in the game, idiots will just keep clinging to that belief and keep saying "IT'LL HAPPEN SOME DAY!" and every damn expansion from now until WOW ends they'll keep swearing up and down that "this will be the one" that adds demon hunter. There is no winning against them, despiste how many times they have lost and will continue to lose.

    It has been this wow since the beginning. Everyone kept saying Demon Hunter will be added next expansion, starting with burning crusade (which would've made the most sense) and continuing on into forever.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasani View Post
    Arguing against demon hunter is like arguing religion, it is so taxing.

    The horrible reality is, even after gamescon when everyone finds out it isn't going to be demon hunter because demon hunter won't work in the game, idiots will just keep clinging to that belief and keep saying "IT'LL HAPPEN SOME DAY!" and every damn expansion from now until WOW ends they'll keep swearing up and down that "this will be the one" that adds demon hunter. There is no winning against them, despiste how many times they have lost and will continue to lose.

    It has been this wow since the beginning. Everyone kept saying Demon Hunter will be added next expansion, starting with burning crusade (which would've made the most sense) and continuing on into forever.
    What makes you so certain it won't be? We have no evidence that says it will, but also none against it, and it is a reasonable assumption. I don't think the game needs another melee class and I'd hope for something more creative, though.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    That just PC Warlocks have it IS the point.



    Either way - you destroy Warlock uniqueness and remove an iconic ability form them simply because you want another class to have it.



    It was never there. Any Warlock tank would be designed as a melee class precisely because the game isn't buiult around ranged tanking.

    EJL
    Seen a few posts of you defending Meta for warlocks, saying it's iconic, etc etc.

    I think you're wrong. When I think of Warlocks I think of them summoning demons, multi-dotting and so on. I don't think of them as metamorphing, so I think it can be removed. Meta is more iconic to demon hunters, because that's what they were in Warcraft 3, that's what they did. If warlocks were like that I would of liked to think they would of had that ability since vanilla, or shortly after.

    However... with that being said. If they do go the route of removing Meta from warlocks in favor of giving it to demon hunters, I still feel like Warlocks should have some form of it, because I look at it like it's their next step in evolving. They should get a replacement spell where they like merge with one of their demons and get heightened powers / unique ability or whatever based on which demon they merge with for X time period.

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