Page 9 of 16 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
... LastLast
  1. #161
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    They stole the idea and ran with it to augment what they already knew. Demo actually has a pretty unique resource system and gameplay, there's no reason a DH class couldn't have a form of Meta that simply works differently because the class itself would use (hopefully) a very different resource and gameplay system. That is fundamentally where the difference has to be, gameplay.
    Is there ANY way you can create a shapeshifting spell that turns the caster into a demon without treading all over the design themes and concepts of a Warlock?
    What about absorbing the essence of a Demon? Making pacts with darkness for power? Using Demonic magic to buff and attack?

    The issue is NOT with gameplay. It has NEVER been with gameplay. The problem is more fundamental than that....the problem is the basic design elements of the class are the same. That the DH class you want is essentially reinventing the wheel.

    Blizzard could ignore all that. WoW is it's game. It can do what it likes. But for it to ignore a fundamental aspect of game design like this, there needs to be a VERY good reason for it to do so. And that reason doesn't exist.

    Or....put it another way.

    Suppose Warlocks got a tanking 4th spec based upon tanking Dual weilding, Meta etc. And suppose it was the Stalker tree.
    Would anyone be opposed to it and say that it can't be added because it was too close to the DH tree? No...they wouldn't.

    Suppose then, that Alliance Warlocks got a quest with the Dark Embrace, which gave them some lore, some challenges at the end of which they were awarded the title "Demon Hunter". And Horde got a similar story with the title "Grand Warlock".

    What then? Where is the difference? What is there that would separate this hypothetical 4th spec from a Demon Hunter? And no...it isn't gameplay. Gameplay is assigned per spec and can vary even within a class

    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    How many warlocks (a generally unpopular class, last I looked) would actually quit over the loss of Metamorphosis? Probably very few. How many boxes would be shifted if Blizzard introduced the demon hunter class? Probably a lot.
    And how many would care if it were a spec instead of a class? Very few. Would more people roll a Warlock if it had a DH spec? Probably.

    Besides, the whole argument about there being no "hole" for demon hunters to fit into hardly matters. There wasn't a role to be filled when death knights or monks were introduced, but they happened anyway.
    The design themes of Undeath and Unarmed Combat not counting of course....

    The entire point of the avatar is do that the player can fill the role and tropes associated with that class. There was no class assisted with Undeath, no class that filled the Dark Lord role. Now there is. There was no class that was based on Unarmed combat.... Now there is.

    But there IS a class that is built around Demons, built around the concepts of making pacts for power. Blizzard doesn't need to design a new class to let players play at the role....it already has one. It just has to design a spec on that theme where the character melees instead of casts.

    Divine Shield is the root of all paladin issues, but it's still going strong after a decade. There are design solutions to Metamorphosis, so it doesn't "need removed" under that particular auspice.
    Blizzard has noted that several abilities cause problems and balance issues. They've also stated that they are reluctant to remove or share iconic abilities unless absolutely necessary...such abilities provide flavor, differentiation, players like them, they help ID the Class and so on. It's important, from a design POV, that classes have such abilities.

    That didn't stop Blizzard nerfing DS for balance, or sharing MS and Bloodlust to prevent mandatory classes. But they also didn't remove those abilities. And...even when shared...effort was taken to ensure the flavor and styles were kept unique.

    Blizzard might very well remove Meta from Demo. But they won't give the ability to another class without a gameplay reason, and even then they won't share the "Become a Demon" aspect.

    EJL

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Is there ANY way you can create a shapeshifting spell that turns the caster into a demon without treading all over the design themes and concepts of a Warlock?

    EJL
    Yes. As soon as you have different mechanics and an altered aesthetic, this becomes immediately different.

    Shamans and Monks both use Water-based healing, yet with different mechanics and altered aesthetics. hell, Tranquility is the same concept as Healing Rain. Paladins and Priests both have Holy healing specs, but they use different mechanics and unique aesthetics for each class. Multiple classes use Fire-based spells in their ranged spell DPS gameplay (including Ele Shaman). Multiple classes use Shadow-based DoT gameplay (including Unholy DK).

    The problem is not overlap, the problem is believing themes are mutually exclusive to one class.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2015-08-02 at 05:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  3. #163
    The Patient Michaelmc454's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Level 10 of the next building over
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    I like this thread.

    Give Warlocks a 4th Demon Hunter Tanking spec with Meta.

    Give Shaman a 4th Earth based Tanking Spec.

    Broaden the existing classes instead of adding new ones.
    Let's have all Death Knight spec be able to tank too, wait a minute.........

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Michaelmc454 View Post
    Let's have all Death Knight spec be able to tank too, wait a minute.........
    What point are you trying to make? Overloading individual specs with multiple roles is not the same as adding an additional single role.

    But you get points for bringing back the pain Blizzard gave me when they took Frost Tanking away. That was the best.

  5. #165
    The Patient Michaelmc454's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Level 10 of the next building over
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    What point are you trying to make? Overloading individual specs with multiple roles is not the same as adding an additional single role.

    But you get points for bringing back the pain Blizzard gave me when they took Frost Tanking away. That was the best.
    More of a throwback joke to Glyph of Demon Hunting and Rockbiter version of unleashed elements since those are both things to make those two classes tanky. And yes dual wield frost tanking was the best and will always have a place in my heart.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    They'd be the first to lose an iconic aesthetic.
    Hunter's Mark would like a word with you.

  7. #167
    If they take meta from demo and give it to a new class I'll be pretty ticked.

    What was the point of doing those challenge modes to get the Betrayer Regalia (Warlock CM transmog)?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I've never liked the idea of a Demon Hunter class. Seems redundant. We already have a class that involves demons (Warlocks) and a class that calls itself a "hunter." I'd prefer something like the Monk, where the abilities are kind of comical (throwing endless kegs of brew at people, etc). The best one I could think of would be one based on the Tinkerer from WarCraft III.
    I could get behind a bard class if it was like this.


  9. #169
    If they take meta from demo and give it to a new class I'll be pretty ticked.

    What was the point of doing those challenge modes to get the Betrayer Regalia (Warlock CM transmog)?
    At least you didn't lose the oportunity to use 2h weapons for wf procs T___T. Never had sulfuras in that time, but was awesome to play with the Unstoppable Force
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2015-08-02 at 07:15 PM.

  10. #170
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Yes. As soon as you have different mechanics and an altered aesthetic, this becomes immediately different.
    And yet, you still have an ability that turns the caster into a demon. Something unique amongst players that only Warlocks can do. And you are saying Blizzard should take that away.

    And that's not counting any of the other areas where Demon Hunters cross into the design space of another class, not counting the other areas of design or lore heavily dependent on the demon theme currently used by Warlocks.

    As soon as you give Meta to another class, it is no longer an iconic Warlock ability. Warlocks will no longer be the one and only class able to transform into a Demon. Meta will stop being an iconic move linked to Warlocks...it'll be a generic shapeshifting ability that simply turns the caster into a demon.

    You will have taken something unique from Warlocks for the reason that you simply want another class to share it.

    EJL

  11. #171
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Heart of Azeroth
    Posts
    15,374
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    And yet, you still have an ability that turns the caster into a demon. Something unique amongst players that only Warlocks can do. And you are saying Blizzard should take that away.

    And that's not counting any of the other areas where Demon Hunters cross into the design space of another class, not counting the other areas of design or lore heavily dependent on the demon theme currently used by Warlocks.

    As soon as you give Meta to another class, it is no longer an iconic Warlock ability. Warlocks will no longer be the one and only class able to transform into a Demon. Meta will stop being an iconic move linked to Warlocks...it'll be a generic shapeshifting ability that simply turns the caster into a demon.

    You will have taken something unique from Warlocks for the reason that you simply want another class to share it.

    EJL
    Demon hunters arent casters
    #tracerisawesomelycute
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ght=shada%27in
    Mods are bias
    "I believe in honor but when it comes to war i will do whatever it takes to protect or save my family" -General Zanjin

  12. #172
    Who said take it away?

    Shamans have Healing Rain. Druids had Tranquility well before that, but it didn't need to be taken away for Shamans to have their version if a very similar spell.

    Again, Warlocks are not the sole proprieters of Fel magic any more than they have the exclusive right to use Shadow magic in general. The belief is misplaced, especially considering no form of magic in WoW has been shown to be exclusive to any one class. Even Druids, who exclusively used Sun magic, ended up having their lore repurposed by the Tauren to explain Seers and Sunwalkers.

    As soon as you realize that, your entire argument fades away into obscurity.

    Metamorphosis does not define Warlocks. Iconic abilities can be given and taken at any moments notice - look at Druid Innervate, Paladin Auras and Hunters Mark. Reverting Metamorphosis into a cooldown ability would not change the Warlock's identity whatsoever. Warlocks are defined by being Fel Magic Spellcasters and Demon Summoners. They are not defined in game as the class who masters turning into a demon; that is only a gameplay gimmick that was given to them 4+ years into the game when their identity was well established.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2015-08-02 at 07:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Who said take it away?

    Shamans have Healing Rain. Druids had Tranquility well before that, but it didn't need to be taken away for Shamans to have their version if a very similar spell.

    Again, Warlocks are not the sole proprieters of Fel magic any more than they have the exclusive right to use Shadow magic in general. The belief is misplaced, especially considering no form of magic in WoW has been shown to be exclusive to any one class. Even Druids, who exclusively used Sun magic, ended up having their lore repurposed by the Tauren to explain Seers and Sunwalkers.

    As soon as you realize that, your entire argument fades away into obscurity.

    Metamorphosis does not define Warlocks. Iconic abilities can be given and taken at any moments notice - look at Druid Innervate, Paladin Auras and Hunters Mark. Reverting Metamorphosis into a cooldown ability would not change the Warlock's identity whatsoever. Warlocks are defined by being Fel Magic Spellcasters and Demon Summoners. They are not defined in game as the class who masters turning into a demon; that is only a gameplay gimmick that was given to them 4+ years into the game when their identity was well established.
    You say they don't have to take meta away, but then go on to say that they can just take away the flavor of meta to salvage the gameplay. When it's the flavor I'm more worried that they will take away.

    Metamorphosis may not define all warlocks, but it defines my warlock in his CM set.

    I will still be ticked, regardless. THERE IS NO CONSOLING ME.
    Last edited by JasonWuzHear; 2015-08-02 at 08:13 PM.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonWuzHear View Post
    You say they don't have to take meta away, but then go on to say that they can just take away the flavor of meta to salvage the gameplay.

    When it's the flavor I'm more worried that they will take away.
    Yeah, but you can live with it. Just like you can live with Felguard not being the primary function of Demonology gameplay, even though at one point it was the Icon of Demonology. It's by no means gone, and it has its uses. It's just not as prime in your rotation as other aspects of gameplay.

    Metamorphosis may not define all warlocks, but it defines my warlock in his CM set.

    I will still be ticked, regardless. THERE IS NO CONSOLING ME.
    Then that's something you'll have to deal with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2015-08-02 at 08:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanjin View Post
    Demon hunters arent casters
    All classes have things called "spells". When you use the spell, it's called "casting", and the person who casts the spell is called a "caster". He's not calling them casters as in ranged, intellect using, mage people.

  16. #176
    All classes have things called "spells". When you use the spell, it's called "casting", and the person who casts the spell is called a "caster". He's not calling them casters as in ranged, intellect using, mage people.
    I believe that the "caster" word can be used with ranged/mage archetypes too, beign casters vs melees the typical discussion in a lot other MMOs. Some old school players will agree with casters being characters that use a "casting time" before using some skills/abilities too. So, for some people, a demonhunter will be the oposite of a "caster" class (me included).

  17. #177
    Itemization for the DH class would be a total joke as well. Seeing how they only wear shoes, pants a belt and that rambo ribbon over their eyes and maybe bracers... And then the thing where they only wield those out of proportion uberunpractical dualbladed swords. Are they going to get all their items autotransmogged to a look based on iLevel? Are they going to use agi cloth? I don't think the abilities will be the big issue, I think it is the look and loot for it. And let's not forget, they are blind and see the world totaly different than the rest of us, or are they going to retcon that or just conveniently forget about it? If they do introduce DH I have a feeling it won't be the DH that the lore describes but a hunter-rogue-warlock hybrid...

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubblebeard View Post
    Itemization for the DH class would be a total joke as well. Seeing how they only wear shoes, pants a belt and that rambo ribbon over their eyes and maybe bracers... And then the thing where they only wield those out of proportion uberunpractical dualbladed swords. Are they going to get all their items autotransmogged to a look based on iLevel? Are they going to use agi cloth? I don't think the abilities will be the big issue, I think it is the look and loot for it. And let's not forget, they are blind and see the world totaly different than the rest of us, or are they going to retcon that or just conveniently forget about it? If they do introduce DH I have a feeling it won't be the DH that the lore describes but a hunter-rogue-warlock hybrid...
    I know, how ridiculous is that? It's not like our Shamans are wearing anything other than wolf pelts amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    I know, how ridiculous is that? It's not like our Shamans are wearing anything other than wolf pelts amirite?
    They don't in WoW, ever since Vanilla they have had NPCs and players decked out in full gear, where every DH you have ever seen has the same outfit.

  20. #180
    What's with the assumption that demon hunters have to draw their powers from demons? That's what Illidan did, one guy, and he got exiled for it. All the other NE demon hunters out their don't use his same methods, and there's no reason to assume metamorphosis HAS to be an ability...because again, thats what Illidan did after finding the skull of gul'dan.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •