20 man mythic and its real impact.

[Deavane]

Yes I do : www.wowprogress.com

Alright so lets see it, compare times when there was similar sub numbers. Also take into account how long the tier had been out at that point, don't give me 14 months of SoO and 4-5 months of BRF.

[Alvito]

20 man mythic killed raiding on my server and I am sure many others. Making a strong 10 man mythic group even on a low population server was a breeze to do. Having that group double in size means you end up having to bring in too many people who are not mythic raiders unless they are carried. 3 of the top 5 raids left the server as soon as it was announced because recruiting was already rough for heroics before WoD. Now it is impossible.

[delus]

I think they should convert mythic to flex after a month or so, not just bring back 10 man.

[Deleted]

Yes the transition has sucked for a number of people. But I would say it doesn't really affect the sub numbers that much given how few people were raiding at the highest difficulty before the changes anyway.

A mythic only legendary drop would make mythic raiding feel more special, and might encourage more people to put in the extra effort.

[Sanguinerd]

Mythic hasn't been worth all the damage it's done, plain and simple.

A mythic only legendary drop would make mythic raiding feel more special, and might encourage more people to put in the extra effort.

Why do they need to feel MORE special? Gear and titles isn't enough? Why should everyone else get left behind because some people want more of a challenge.. it isn't our problem.

I liked 10 man raiding.. f*ck me right?

[Cytus]

OP is saying, he had fun raiding in a small and relaxing group of friends and family. That's a valid point.
I had the most fun while raiding in 25-man groups. It felt more immersive to me and having intern officer tasks is just a joke on a roster that is smaller than 15 player. This should also be a valid point.

Surely, those 10man groups/guilds had to eithe grow or band with another small group. So I would rather argue that existing communities developed and lots of new communities were created with WoD.
In case a guild completely disbands and everyone goes more or less a new direction, then it wasn't a good community to begin with.


I think that the hassle almost every guild had from announcing WoD up to the first months into it with upgrading their roster, did really pay off.

Don't forget the reason why they made Mythic 20man and not 10man. It was because it allows for much larger class diversity. Now we know that resto druids are not that great overall imo, but we have one in our setup every raid evening because we go with 4-5 healers anyways and it's valueable to have a diverse toolkit within the healingcomp.
When we were raiding 10man we would just say, go shaman/paladin/disc or GTFO!

- - - Updated - - -

Except that the average raider was probably doing some bosses on heroic (mythic). A 10-man heroic group now can't step into mythic and do a couple of bosses.

Well, that's a really small niche of groups. At some point, you can't cater to any more ...
We allready have 3 difficulties suitable for organized raiding and 2 of them are flexible.

[Perkunas]

Bring back 10man mythic and I guarantee you'll see a surge in sub #s and stability.

This is moronic. The amount of "mythic" quality players that left because of the 20-man mythic raid scene could likely not even fill a football stadium.

[Astador]

When I started playing back in BC I was in a 25-man guild that was Top 5 on our server. We got stuff done. It was fun. Eventually, that guild broke up and a new one got made where it was more casual through WotLK. Still 25-man, but that group didn't really push content. We did that in the 10-man group which was made up of our best players. Cataclysm, same deal. We could put a 25 man together, but it was iffy. Didn't matter though, because our 10 man group was awesome and we were able to run through all the content.

I begged off for MoP, but they were essentially doing the same thing through that expansion. Then came WoD. A whole extra bogus tier to have to work through after Normal and oh, by the way, if you want to do the real end-game content you best have 20 people. We had problems pulling together 20 people each raid night. We could get really close, but always 20? Nope. So, we started recruiting. Except, as we all know, most people can't play this game very well. So you end up with a bunch of people you carry who aren't going to be able to help you push progression. Assuming they even hang around and don't just use you for gear, etc.

We'd LOVE to cut the fat and go back to 10 man raiding. But hey, Blizzard has more money than God and more developers than ever working on the game, but balancing end-game content for 10-mans AND 25-mans is just too much of a hassle for them, right? :insert Bender Bending Rodriguez "You want me to do TWO things?" joke:

[Deavane]

Mythic hasn't been worth all the damage it's done, plain and simple.



Why do they need to feel MORE special? Gear and titles isn't enough? Why should everyone else get left behind because some people want more of a challenge.. it isn't our problem.

I liked 10 man raiding.. f*ck me right?

I think he's trying to add more of a carrot for people to chase so that people in the lower difficulties (who currently have no intention of moving into mythic) will have more incentive to move up.

That's the opposite of what we need at the moment. Mythic will never appeal to masses because of accessibility of the other difficulties. The content is easy to see and seeing the story portion of raiding can be completed in hours, instead of the time it use to take back in BC or Vanilla.

[Cytus]

I am pretty certain from all the things people complain about in WoD, the change from 10/25 to 20 player mythic groups cost wow the most players, since this does not affect individual players, but entire raid groups.

After breaking up the raid groups some players found a new home somewhere, but some others stopped playing completely.

I am pretty sure the biggest reason for this ongoing subscriber drop is that the game as a whole in so many aspects together just lost it's drive. They added just to many conviniences. No reason to try hard at anything anymore, because it does not feel rewarding.
And the population who used to only PVP got decimated so hard because no one has fun playing in this mess of today.

[Exerionx]

Ehhh, I really prefer 10 man raiding. Just something about the smaller size and 'management' of the roster is more appealing to me.

But to get the best gear and all that, I have to do 20 man Mythic. Maybe I'm just a sook, lol. I just wish there was a cool 10 man mythic or someshit.

[Perkunas]

I am pretty sure the biggest reason for this ongoing subscriber drop is that the game as a whole in so many aspects together just lost it's drive. They added just to many conviniences. No reason to try hard at anything anymore, because it does not feel rewarding.
And the population who used to only PVP got decimated so hard because no one has fun playing in this mess of today.

Holy shit. Don't make intelligent posts on MMO-Champion. You're going to screw up my perception of this place as being filled with nothing but oxygen thieves.

[Locknrollen]

"0,5% top guilds are really happy about this new scene " I hope you just misstyped or didnt Think your statement through, i can guarantee you that almost 100% of the top Guilds love mythic.

also the average player doesnt even finish normal mode.

[Ute]

Just my experience and completely anecdotal:

I ran a small 10 man heroic (mythic) guild back in MoP. When the news (yes, just the news) that WoD would be 20 man only mythic was announced, my guild basically fell apart over the course of a month. I can't recall now every single person's reasons, but they ranged from "I don't want to raid with 10 new people" to "we'll never be able to recruit 10 more people to raid so no point in trying." Of the 11 raiders we had then, only 3 of us still play and only one of us (not me) has a regular (mythic) raid group. I have resorted to doing nothing more than occasionally pugging normal and heroic runs.

I could find a 20 man mythic raid team, but honestly, I just don't want to. I'm tired of finding new homes and befriending new people. I just don't care any more. If 10 man mythic came back in the next expac, I would absolutely start raiding again and I would get as many of my old raiding friends back as I could. I know 2 would come back for sure. I know we are talking about a fraction of a fraction of the WoW population here, but in my experience raiders leaving is not isolated to only affecting the raiding population or community. It has a ripple effect throughout the WoW population. The server I started playing on was home to several high end raiding guilds during Wrath and BC. Those guilds fell apart during the end of Wrath and the server never recovered. The raiders left the server and the server died. The most populous servers generally tend to be the ones with the best raiding communities, even though only a small fraction of the server pop actually raids at a high level (or any level). I don't know why, but WoW population is definitely tied to raiding communities.

[Socialhealer]

As a former 10 heroic raider, I always felt the rank-bros migrated to 25 man for multiple stormlashes, skull banners, etc, while 10 man raiders were more focused on mechanical purity knowing that they couldn't afford many fuck ups. This expansion, I've been in a couple mythic guilds which were on par with where my 10 man was in MoP, and they're plagued with exactly what I feared - people more obsessed about their own numbers/gear/satisfaction that they add 100s of attempts over the course of an instance to your progression. It's pushed me to the point of not raiding any more - I'm already only raid logging, and we're still on progression.

not a 10man thing, my 25man guild it's happening to loads of people myself included, we're just raid logging because there's nothing else to do in the game, a lot of people stayed longer than they would of just because they didn't want to let the other 20~ ppl down by leaving, but eventually they can't keep playing the game because of others, they need to play the game because they want to, and i think the issue is a lot of people don't want to, not when it's just raids and the rest of the content is non existent or just a bad timeless isle copy and pvp is worse then ever.

[Thage]

Seriously leave mythic raiding to mythic raiders. I dont raid mythic and im perfectly fine as it is. It is way harder to balance fights for different raid sizes.

If you want to raid mythic transfer to a guild that has 20 raiders to do it.

I'm tired of people who claim to be entitled to eveyrthing.

People want hard content and that's entitled? Jeez. People today--"I have mine, fuck you."

And I don't think we as customers should give a damn if it takes more work to balance two sizes for Mythic. I don't think we should let them excuse anything off as 'it takes too much work' after this expansion. If clocking in is that exhausting of an ordeal for them, it's time to start showing people the door and bringing in new blood that's hungry for success.

[DeadmanWalking]

I am pretty certain from all the things people complain about in WoD, the change from 10/25 to 20 player mythic groups cost wow the most players, since this does not affect individual players, but entire raid groups.

After breaking up the raid groups some players found a new home somewhere, but some others stopped playing completely.

They lost over 5 million players in a year, there is no way that 10/25 to 20 cost the most players as mythic raiders only represent a single digit portion of the population, under 10%. I know that this effects you but let's not let your perceptions skew the reality that you do not represent the majority. The most players who left this game did it for something a little more tangible than failing mythic roster boss.

When Wod dropped it shot up 3 million subscribers and then lost nearly 3 million subscribers which tells me that the majority of them were expecting something in thier heads that they didn't get and frankly never could of been given because they jumped on a hype train and hype trains are not real.

[Thage]

I am pretty sure the biggest reason for this ongoing subscriber drop is that the game as a whole in so many aspects together just lost it's drive. They added just to many conviniences. No reason to try hard at anything anymore, because it does not feel rewarding.
And the population who used to only PVP got decimated so hard because no one has fun playing in this mess of today.

Not just that, but even most casual players have barely anything to do outside the Skinner Box after a couple weeks. The bell curve turned into an arterial bleed because there's no retention at the casual level and they're slaughtering 10-man friends and family/semi-hardcore guilds left and right with their raid design.

[Perkunas]

People want hard content and that's entitled? Jeez. People today--"I have mine, fuck you."

And I don't think we as customers should give a damn if it takes more work to balance two sizes for Mythic. I don't think we should let them excuse anything off as 'it takes too much work' after this expansion. If clocking in is that exhausting of an ordeal for them, it's time to start showing people the door and bringing in new blood that's hungry for success.

I think people should shut up and raid 20-man or quit. It's annoying at this point and you likely wont be missed. Hell, they could probably kill Mythic completely and barely notice the sub loss when compared to the current trend.

[hydrium]

I think people should shut up and raid 20-man or quit. It's annoying at this point and you likely wont be missed. Hell, they could probably kill Mythic completely and barely notice the sub loss when compared to the current trend.

Well you got your wish.

50% of their subscribers gone in just 6 months.

Have fun playing with no one in another 6 months!