20 man mythic and its real impact.

[Perkunas]

Well you got your wish.

50% of their subscribers gone in just 6 months.

Have fun playing with no one in another 6 months!

Wait, because of Mythic? You're a mad man if you think so. Warcraft has been on a downward spiral since Cata. Nothing they do is going to stop it until it reaches a point where only the most obsessed people are still playing it like old EQ. I'd like to think that'd be around 2 million or so, but it could be even lower. This has nothing to do with the highest raid difficulty and it's raid size because the population of people that actually cleared the hardest raid content is tiny.

[DeadmanWalking]

Well you got your wish.

50% of their subscribers gone in just 6 months.

Have fun playing with no one in another 6 months!

It was 12 months, and 90%+ players have nothing to do with mythic so I want to commend you on your math skills.

[Warrada]

The same thing happened on my server (Azralon), guys...

A ton of raiding guilds broke during WoD (i estimate that around 10-12 guilds), especially during Highmaul/BRF, where literally every week i heard about 1 or 2 guilds that stopped raiding due to stability issues on their cores, cause you know, while before you had already your fine 10 man core well estabilished, on WoD you had to recruit 10 people more with the same profile. And its very hard to do this, even on populated servers (mine is) to have consistency among 20 people, now imagine the impact on mid/low pop servers...

I suspect that overall, Mythic mode has brought more damage than anything to the game, and it worries me that i dont see threads like this popping up enough to catch Blizzard attention, so they can do something about it for the next expansion. I REALLY think they should bring back 10 man...

[Thage]

I think people should shut up and raid 20-man or quit. It's annoying at this point and you likely wont be missed. Hell, they could probably kill Mythic completely and barely notice the sub loss when compared to the current trend.

I don't raid Mythic. I don't raid at all, that's not my scene. I'm still plenty allowed to posit that a) I can care about things that don't effect me because I understand silly things like empathy, and b) after this lazy shitheap of an expansion, "It's too much work" is no longer a valid excuse from Blizzard.

[Deleted]

Since this argument has been done to death, i'm just going to make this simple and plain and not go into exhaustive detail for the 1000th time:

Mythic flex will not work.
Mythic 10/20 will not work, needs to be one consistent size.
Mythic 10 will not allow for complex and fun mechanics in the same way 20 man does.
WoD did not lose 3 million subscribers because of a lack of Mythic flex / 10 man / whatever simply because a very small percentage of the raiding playerbase would ever be able to raid Mythic in the first place regardless of raiding size.

In a nutshell, Mythic 20 man allows for better raiding for those guilds that can manage it. The rest of the playerbase have flex normal and HC. There are really very very very few players that no longer play because 10 man Mythic doesn't exist.

[kajeet18]

Sorry OP, but you and everyone else who thinks Mythic was a bad idea are completely wrong. Mythic allowed Blizzard to make incredible encounters without having to worry about the raid size limitation. Having one static difficulty enabled them to create raids with engaging, difficult mechanics that they know will work because the player count is static.

Anyone that says they cant do Mythic now is not because they cant find a guild/raid team of required size. Its because they werent good enough to do end game content in anything other than the joke that 10man was. It was retarded easy and End game raiding is FAR better off now with the one, 20man static difficulty. Its not going anywhere, so get over yourselves, or find another game.

[Deleted]

Sorry OP, but you and everyone else who thinks Mythic was a bad idea are completely wrong. Mythic allowed Blizzard to make incredible encounters without having to worry about the raid size limitation. Having one static difficulty enabled them to create raids with engaging, difficult mechanics that they know will work because the player count is static.

Anyone that says they cant do Mythic now is not because they cant find a guild/raid team of required size. Its because they werent good enough to do end game content in anything other than the joke that 10man was. It was retarded easy and End game raiding is FAR better off now with the one, 20man static difficulty. Its not going anywhere, so get over yourselves, or find another game.

Pretty much this.

[Deleted]

Since this argument has been done to death, i'm just going to make this simple and plain and not go into exhaustive detail for the 1000th time:

Mythic flex will not work.
Mythic 10/20 will not work, needs to be one consistent size.
Mythic 10 will not allow for complex and fun mechanics in the same way 20 man does.
WoD did not lose 3 million subscribers because of a lack of Mythic flex / 10 man / whatever simply because a very small percentage of the raiding playerbase would ever be able to raid Mythic in the first place regardless of raiding size.

In a nutshell, Mythic 20 man allows for better raiding for those guilds that can manage it. The rest of the playerbase have flex normal and HC. There are really very very very few players that no longer play because 10 man Mythic doesn't exist.

But there are probably a lot of players who stopped playing because 10 man no longer exists.

10 man was pushed under a bus to help incentivise larger group sizes, which in turn was done in order to make organising and recruiting for mythic raiding easier.

[RonaldBDG]

Sorry OP, but you and everyone else who thinks Mythic was a bad idea are completely wrong. Mythic allowed Blizzard to make incredible encounters without having to worry about the raid size limitation. Having one static difficulty enabled them to create raids with engaging, difficult mechanics that they know will work because the player count is static.

This right here. Having two separate raid sizes didn't allow for adding mechanics that assumed you had at least one of each major raid cooldown. All 10m did was hinder the encounter designer's imagination.

[Baconeggcheese]

I think there's a higher chance of seeing 25 man come back than 10 man mythic to be frank.

[Deleted]

Removal of fixed 10 man on the hardest difficulty killed the game for me.

[Deleted]

My guild in mists died because we couldnt meet the 20man mythic requirment. We were really close bunch of guys and it destroyed us and most of dont play wow anymore.

[oraz4000]

Sorry OP, but you and everyone else who thinks Mythic was a bad idea are completely wrong. Mythic allowed Blizzard to make incredible encounters without having to worry about the raid size limitation. Having one static difficulty enabled them to create raids with engaging, difficult mechanics that they know will work because the player count is static.

Anyone that says they cant do Mythic now is not because they cant find a guild/raid team of required size. Its because they werent good enough to do end game content in anything other than the joke that 10man was. It was retarded easy and End game raiding is FAR better off now with the one, 20man static difficulty. Its not going anywhere, so get over yourselves, or find another game.

Incredible encounters

[cUbik]

It is the first time I make a post on these forums. My guild has a huge community of gamers. We were so many that in BC and Wrath we had 2 x 25 men raids going, plus 5 groups doing Karazhan runs. At the end of wrath we had 2 x 25 men and 10 x 10 men groups raiding in our guild. The beauty of it was that it allowed us to raid the way we chose to. One group was hardcore, progressing faster, the other one was more casual. And when I say casual I don't mean players without skill, I mean players that could not afford to put more than 6 hours a week raiding time.

The beauty was that you could actually afford to raid end game content, even if at a slower pace, and take care of the rest of the responsibilities: kids, jobs, health issues etc. The game was more friendly towards players that had the skill but not enough time.

This expansion the guild had 2 groups remaining so you are probably wondering how come these 2 groups did not just come together. Well one of those groups, the one I was leading up to few hours ago, raided for 6 years, 3/4 days a week, a semi-hardcore group. The other one raided max 2 days, often with breaks, in a very casual manner just for a laugh. So how do you take the discipline from one group and force it onto the second group?

People that got used to play in a certain way, with certain rules for so many years will not feel joy in drastically changing the way they raid. And I can also tell you that people that raided all the end game content in 10 man (for so many years) and now are forced to raid only heroic, can't and will never be happy, hence will quit all together. The major issue is that even if you accept the idea that you will see only the heroic bosses you are left without words when you get stuck at a boss that is so poorly designed for a small group that you can't kill it even if you don't make any mistake. And then you join some random pug in Looking for Group and you realize half of the group does not even know mechanics but the boss still dies.

How does this work? Same players that killed LK H, Ragnaros H, Siegebreaker H can't kill Gorefiend in 10 man heroic but a random cross realm half confused group can do it! This is one of the reasons why the way things are at the moment does not work and it will never work. Well it works for some but the game will keep losing subscribers.

My group (RIP) called it today after so many years. It is a sad day for us because it is not easy to have to say goodbye to a game that filled our lives with such a joy for so many years. It is not easy to say goodbye to the people you knew as well as your family: you celebrated their birthdays, the birth of their kids, you felt for their pain when your warlock was fighting cancer, your tank was taken by storm by diabetes, your mage almost died in a car crash, your priest broke his hand in a bicycle accident. It was so very hard to say goodbye to the people that trusted and followed your leadership and had those words of encouragement when their raid leader was struggling chronic pain for years. But we had no other choice. And the reason is because no matter what hardships we may have encountered in our real lives, that feeling and joy of knowing we can and will down that final end game boss kept us going, made us feel like heroes, and that feeling was taken away from us.

No we don't want to keep raiding or playing the game if we can't play together and see end game content. We have the skill. We don't have the numbers. But we will not break the bonds we had, to start all over in a "better guild". We rather call it a day and go play another game, one that will allow us to be heroes as long as we have the skill.

All I want to add in the end is to just say thank you to all the developers and brilliant minds that made the game what it was before WOD and actually even now I guess, some players seem to still get joy from the game. So thank you Blizzard for the best gaming experience I had. And if I am allowed to hope, maybe one day I will have again!

[DeadmanWalking]

10 man mythic is sadly underwelming.

Part of being a mythic guild is not just getting 10-20 people in a raid and downing bosses. Part of the difficulty is being able to manage 20+ people and generally getting along well enough to function long term. Doing mechanics in a mythic raid are hard and important but no less hard and important than maintaining a 20+ man roster. It's all the hard combined which makes Mythic the pinnacle of wow raiding and if you can't maintain a guild of that size then you are not a mythic raider because you can't meet the requirements.

A lot of people like to imagine that they are indeed mythic raiders but don't want the hassle of collaberating with 20+ people, which means they are not really mythic raiders. Oh sure they may have the gear and the skill but that's not what makes a mythic raider, part of it is maintaining the social aspects of the game and if you can't manage to hold 20+ people together then you are not a mythic raider. It's not suppose to be made easy, it's suppose to take some dedication and effort.

[Reyzzz]

There's no reason they can't open 10 man mythic 2 weeks after 20 man releases for smaller communities to tackle challenging content.

The reason is that they have to waste time balancing it so that those 10 man groups have a challenge worth doing.

[Gradywhite]

As an anecdote, I just really don't understand the complaint about not being able to maintain a 20 man roster, especially as a previously established guild. At the launch of Warlords, a group of friends and I decided to make a friends- and family-style guild to push as much content as possible on a 2-day per week, 3 hours per night raid schedule. On a medium-sized US server, we've been able to keep a 20+ roster for the entirety of the expansion and pushed 8/10M in BRF. People who can't keep a roster just don't want to put in the effort for mythic. If all the people who keep complaining about their 10 man guild falling apart actually interfaced with other players in a similar position, they could have a functional raiding guild.

"But I don't want to raid with people I don't know!"

Then maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMORPG, where you're expected to work with lots of other people to overcome an awesome dungeon or boss or achievement. I think the magic of the MMO comes from working with strangers to overcome these goals, which has created the bonds that most of us cherish so much and keeps bringing us back to the game. It seems to me that people don't want to make new friends or include more people outside of their tight-knit group anymore, but that's the soul of the MMORPG, and it's being lost on so many people.

[kajeet18]

Incredible encounters

Dont know what you have been raiding but both BRF and HFC have been some of the best raids Blizzard has EVER released. Well at least in terms of challenge, if all you do is LFR and Normal I could see how it would feel bland.

[Deleted]

As an anecdote, I just really don't understand the complaint about not being able to maintain a 20 man roster, especially as a previously established guild. At the launch of Warlords, a group of friends and I decided to make a friends- and family-style guild to push as much content as possible on a 2-day per week, 3 hours per night raid schedule. On a medium-sized US server, we've been able to keep a 20+ roster for the entirety of the expansion and pushed 8/10M in BRF. People who can't keep a roster just don't want to put in the effort for mythic. If all the people who keep complaining about their 10 man guild falling apart actually interfaced with other players in a similar position, they could have a functional raiding guild.

"But I don't want to raid with people I don't know!"

Then maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMORPG, where you're expected to work with lots of other people to overcome an awesome dungeon or boss or achievement. I think the magic of the MMO comes from working with strangers to overcome these goals, which has created the bonds that most of us cherish so much and keeps bringing us back to the game. It seems to me that people don't want to make new friends or include more people outside of their tight-knit group anymore, but that's the soul of the MMORPG, and it's being lost on so many people.

This would be a great argument if people hadn't just been doing small group hardcore content for 7 frickign years before WoD destroyed their guilds.

[Deleted]

A lot of people like to imagine that they are indeed mythic raiders but don't want the hassle of collaberating with 20+ people, which means they are not really mythic raiders.

Stopped reading there.

As Blizzard oftens states, the playerbase is a huge amount of people, and not everyone will enjoy playing with 19/24 other players. Not everyone will enjoy playing with 9 other players. It's about preference.

A lot of people preferred a small, tight-knit team in a 10 man group to take on the hardest difficulty (for the size), I'm one of those people.

All 10 man guilds knew that the only progression race taken seriously was the larger size one, I don't think any 10 man raider would disagree.

With the new raid formats Blizzard gave players more choice, but the one choice they missed out for me, is 10 man mythic.