Page 1 of 9
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1
    Deleted

    Afrasiabi on Class Order Halls..

    Hi. I don't usually make threads but I'd like to share my thoughts, after reading a recent interview with Alex Afrasiabi, J. Allen Brack (src: http://tweakers.net/reviews/4144/2/w...artifacts.html)

    Mostly concerning these paragraphs:

    Tweakers: The Halls Order should be a meeting place what you want to achieve by. ? That players with a character of the same class actually work together?

    Brack: "That would be best, of course arise, but that is not something we are going to organize. We see it more as a place where players can compare the two to see who the strongest Mage is on the server instance and, if necessary, ask for tips on comparable players. It is for that matter a reaction to the Garrisons, where you only things is to figure out. "
    First thing that caught my eye was the part about 'organizing'. Blizzard announced, specifically Afrasiabi, that these would be world-intergrated spaces. It doesn't seem to be integrated if there's no reason to interact with others except to inspect them, that's what capital cities are for, except this is segregated by the classes themselves.

    I don't see how they can promote them as world intergrated if they're not developing any incentive, whatsoever, to do things with other mages, or other paladins, et cetera. Tweakers addresses this in the follow up question:

    Tweakers: But if I'm a Mage, why would I want other Mages want to meet I'm not going on adventures I?. especially wants a good tank and meet a good healer, no other Mage.

    Afrasiabi: "The great Hall is also especially the place where you can tinker with your Artifact. And there is yet another aspect; in Legion, you are not just a Mage. Because you have to Artifact, you are the leader of the Order, in this example the leader of all Mages. You lead all the members of your class in the battle against the Burning Legion. "
    First sentence seems pretty much like they're thinking of a runeforging type system, that's fine. But that doesn't really intergrate anything into the world.

    Second sentence is concerning, because he's essentially saying, again, that they're not worried about everyone being the leader of the rest of them, whilst simultaneously being a part of everybody elses' army - in an open-world MMO it doesn't make sense. Tweakers also mentions this again;

    Tweakers: But that applies to all Mages I in the Order Hall encounter and that may have a better equipped Artifact than me.

    Afrasiabi: "That’s just how the story works. Through the story we’re trying to give the impression that you are the most important Mage in the battle against the Burning Legion. You, as the leader of all Mages, send out fellow Mages to take part of the battle and march together with Paladins, Warriors and all other classes. Besides that we’re looking into opportunities for collaborations (not sure about this one, it’s worded as cross-fertilization in Dutch, but I’ll assume that’s not it xD) between the different classes, though it’s too early to say anything about that."
    "That's just how the story works." Did they ever consider re-fitting the story to be more in line with what an MMO is? Or am I just having a stroke or something?

    They've admitted they're trying to give the impression you're 'the guy' - when in game you're raiding with many other guys, other guys even belonging to your own class, interacting with them, in guilds with them, in class orders with them. It doesn't make any sense to treat the player character like this unless you're expecting one guy to play the game.

    It blows my mind how they want to persue a story that is inherently single-player, in a huge MMO. Afrasiabi just said that that's how the story works - then why the fuck is that story being considered in the first place? Is everyone that big a narcissist that they'll proclaim they're the shitting Thane of Whiterun whilst 500 other people simultaneously proclaim the same thing?

    It's so beyond stupid to treat the player character like this. They're completely oblivious to the fact that this is an MMO where you play amongst and with other people.

  2. #2
    They simply try to create some sort of experience that you only get in singleplay and is somewhat had to recreate in multiplayer.
    Its too early to say if this will work or not.

  3. #3
    Only you know, that was exactly what all of WoD was? You were the Commander, as was every single other person that went to Draenor.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  4. #4
    Even if the Order Halls accomplish nothing socially it wouldn't even matter, it doesn't have to. Unlike Garrisons which phased us out of view of other players, at least this will put other players in the same space. Nothing is really detracted by this. And it doesn't matter if there are other 'leaders' running around because it didn't stop us all being Generals in the Alliance/Horde army from making sense.


    The other characters don't matter lorewise. As far as the story is concerned, you're the baddest Wizard in the world and you've got other Wizards who want to help you run chores. Everyone else in the order hall is just hanging out.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Only you know, that was exactly what all of WoD was? You were the Commander, as was every single other person that went to Draenor.
    Yeah, but the thing is - the garrisons were instanced, and it's possible to have multiple commanders of a faction - not so much in terms of having multiple Ashbringers, Doomhammers, etc.

    They're being visually blatant here, and blatantly against the lore.

    I know it seems nitpicky, but it's just a very poorly thought-out way to really implement this into an MMO, if what they say is true.

    The other characters don't matter lorewise. As far as the story is concerned, you're the baddest Wizard in the world and you've got other Wizards who want to help you run chores. Everyone else in the order hall is just hanging out.
    Yeah, but I'm just saying it's very ill-fitting of an MMO. Especially if everybody instantly gets the most powerful weapon in existence when they ding 100. And it's visually annoying to see everyone with the same, most powerful, honed weapon in existence in the same area.

    I'm trying to say, even if ignorant from a lore standpoint, it's ignorant of the game itself to do it like this.
    Last edited by mmoc3277a835d2; 2015-08-09 at 01:45 PM.

  6. #6
    The only places where this becomes any concern is
    A: A role playing server.
    or B: Wait..no... it only matters on a role playing server.

    Just calm down... take a deep breath... imagine the sounds of waves lapping against the shore... Close your eyes... tell yourself "I am the greatest %class in all of Azeroth... all the other %class around me are great champions... but they follow my lead..." then open your eyes... now imagine that none of the other %class matter as much as you do... Crisis averted.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    tbh I think of those Halls more like something that adds flavor to classes. I always liked Moonglade, Archerus and Peak of Serenity. I am glad that they add those for all classes.

  8. #8
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,011
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Even if the Order Halls accomplish nothing socially it wouldn't even matter, it doesn't have to. Unlike Garrisons which phased us out of view of other players, at least this will put other players in the same space. Nothing is really detracted by this. And it doesn't matter if there are other 'leaders' running around because it didn't stop us all being Generals in the Alliance/Horde army from making sense.


    The other characters don't matter lorewise. As far as the story is concerned, you're the baddest Wizard in the world and you've got other Wizards who want to help you run chores. Everyone else in the order hall is just hanging out.
    Warlock class hall on my realm is going to be about as well populated as my Garrison anyway.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    The only places where this becomes any concern is
    A: A role playing server.
    or B: Wait..no... it only matters on a role playing server.

    Just calm down... take a deep breath... imagine the sounds of waves lapping against the shore... Close your eyes... tell yourself "I am the greatest %class in all of Azeroth... all the other %class around me are great champions... but they follow my lead..." then open your eyes... now imagine that none of the other %class matter as much as you do... Crisis averted.
    I don't pay them $60 to personally suspend my disbelief, I pay them $60 to captivate me in their product, that they actually develop to be immersive.

    Again, we come down to the RP vs. RPG thing. It isn't about roleplaying, even though it screws them over to some degree- they have their own standards. I'm talking about immersion in the RPG. Passive immersion, not active roleplaying.

    Let me put it this way;

    Imagine everybody in the game got a free Zulian Tiger upon hitting level 20. Imagine that you'd dreamed of getting that mount from the BMAH or something like that for years and years. Now suddenly everybody (including you) is given a copy of it.

    Does the value of the tiger remain the same in, say, a couple of weeks? No. It starts to look tacky. It's a tiger that every single player has - and everybody here is simply suggesting to suspend their disbelief, and believe that 'you're the only hero that managed to get the tiger'.

    No, you shouldn't have to suspend that disbelief. There should be some sort of effort involved, and there shouldn't be powerful lore items that litter class orders en masse.

    The ZG tiger is just an example of this, but apply it to any item you hold dear to your character, and imagine how it'd feel if everyone was given something of yours for no effort, riding it around.

    My point: What is the point of an MMO if everybody is given the same crap for free, for no effort.
    Last edited by mmoc3277a835d2; 2015-08-09 at 01:53 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolascius View Post
    Yeah, but the thing is - the garrisons were instanced, and it's possible to have multiple commanders of a faction - not so much in terms of having multiple Ashbringers, Doomhammers, etc.

    They're being visually blatant here, and blatantly against the lore.

    I know it seems nitpicky, but it's just a very poorly thought-out way to really implement this into an MMO, if what they say is true.



    Yeah, but I'm just saying it's very ill-fitting of an MMO. Especially if everybody instantly gets the most powerful weapon in existence when they ding 100. And it's visually annoying to see everyone with the same, most powerful, honed weapon in existence in the same area.

    I'm trying to say, even if ignorant from a lore standpoint, it's ignorant of the game itself to do it like this.
    No it's not. There was only one garrison and only one commander. You.
    They just made it not instanced so you can say that you interact with people. I mean Acherus is the same. You were the only champion of the Lich King. In reality, you should only care about your "followers" and your artifact.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolascius View Post

    "That's just how the story works." Did they ever consider re-fitting the story to be more in line with what an MMO is? Or am I just having a stroke or something?

    They've admitted they're trying to give the impression you're 'the guy' - when in game you're raiding with many other guys, other guys even belonging to your own class, interacting with them, in guilds with them, in class orders with them. It doesn't make any sense to treat the player character like this unless you're expecting one guy to play the game.

    It blows my mind how they want to persue a story that is inherently single-player, in a huge MMO. Afrasiabi just said that that's how the story works - then why the fuck is that story being considered in the first place? Is everyone that big a narcissist that they'll proclaim they're the shitting Thane of Whiterun whilst 500 other people simultaneously proclaim the same thing?

    It's so beyond stupid to treat the player character like this. They're completely oblivious to the fact that this is an MMO where you play amongst and with other people.
    It's the same with Legendaries, epix etc. It was the same with Benediction or Rhok'delar. It how every MMO works...

  12. #12
    Deleted
    I just see these halls are a central hub for "class quests" and maybe a social hub where you can discusse you class.
    Then again why they are for both Alliance and Horde when you cant talk with the other side is a ? for me.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolascius View Post
    I don't pay them $60 to personally suspend my disbelief, I pay them $60 to captivate me in their product, that they actually develop to be immersive.

    Again, we come down to the RP vs. RPG thing. It isn't about roleplaying, even though it screws them over to some degree- they have their own standards. I'm talking about immersion in the RPG. Passive immersion, not active roleplaying.
    If you don't want to personally suspend your disbelief then WoW is the last game you should be playing.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rufix View Post
    It's the same with Legendaries, epix etc. It was the same with Benediction or Rhok'delar. It how every MMO works...
    Not to mention that it's been like this since Vanilla. You are the guy who saves everyone.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Warlock class hall on my realm is going to be about as well populated as my Garrison anyway.
    Unless they're CRZ.

    I like the social aspect of Order Halls, as it does allow you to inspect and converse with other members of your class. However, I wish there was something there to facilitate conversations with other members of your class. A Message Board, perhaps even connected to the Class Forums on the main website, would go a long way to helping build a community for each class, for example.
    Professor of History at Dalaran University

  16. #16
    Have to agree. Playing an MMO is not about being the most important person in the world. Thrall making that weird emphasis on commander was also cringy tbh.

  17. #17
    Class halls will be a place where poorly geared/specced/enchanted players can be called out. This will do wonders for customer morale!
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  18. #18
    Dreadlord Chuckadoodle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Jacksonville Florida
    Posts
    843
    From the front page:

    You will spend less time in your Order Hall than you did in your Garrison. You go back to do quests, work on your artifact, and interact with your champions. You will likely spend a lot of your downtime in Dalaran.

    Moonglade, Archerus, 2.0
    Ideally no one has ever hit the level cap of the last expansion, looked at their dungeon blues, and thought "I win."

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tingcow/simple

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rufix View Post
    It's the same with Legendaries, epix etc. It was the same with Benediction or Rhok'delar. It how every MMO works...
    If anything, it's the same way from the very, very beginning. You're 'the guy' who controlled the Wolf population in Northshire Abbey, you're 'the guy' who rescued Budd from some bizarre nonsense, you're 'the guy' who helped free the Ancients in Hyjal and save the environment, you're 'the guy' who got in that Shredder in Talador and went on a genocidal rampage against that Iron Horde army.

    You have always been the special 'chosen one' in the WoW lore, from the moment you clicked 'Create Character'. Getting Artifact weapons changes none of that.

  20. #20
    Deleted
    It's the same with Legendaries, epix etc. It was the same with Benediction or Rhok'delar. It how every MMO works...
    Yes, because Benedition and Rhok'delar were given to you upon dinging 60.

    Not to mention that it's been like this since Vanilla. You are the guy who saves everyone.
    You're an adventurer, that has the capability to be 'the guy who saves everyone' if you had actually put the effort in. And it felt rewarding as a result.

    When you're automatically 'the guy' with no incentive, effort, challenge, or aspiration, you have nothing but temporary jollies. The journey matters.

    You have always been the special 'chosen one' in the WoW lore, from the moment you clicked 'Create Character'. Getting Artifact weapons changes none of that.
    I don't know what game you're playing, but the PC has never been mentioned directly in the lore - nor has the PC been the proverbial Messiah. We're adventurers.
    Last edited by mmoc3277a835d2; 2015-08-09 at 01:58 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •