1. #1
    Deleted

    Fistweaving talent choices

    Hey so I wonder when to chose which talent when going for pure DPS as Mistweavermonk. Ive looked into some warcraftlogs for specific fights but in some cases its really hard to find out whats best for each situation.

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    So in general can someone explain when to specc Chi Burst(ok this is obvious) and when to specc Chi Wave or Zen Sphere. And explain WHY Chi Wave or why Zen Sphere.

    Same question goes for Power Strikes or Chi Brew.

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    There is some fights in the logs in what I really cant decide what to specc thats why Im asking for help in here.
    For what I've got out of the logs I'd specc into the following talents on specific bosses, can someone give me an advice why I could be wrong in some cases?
    (All information about the speccs are out of warcraftlogs.com and the average damage a MW Monk did on specific fights)

    CT=Chi Torpedo
    X=Xuen
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    CE=Chi Explosion
    PoM=Pool of Mists
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    CB=Chi Burst
    CW=Chi Wave
    ZS=Zen Sphere
    ---
    PS=Power Strikes
    ChB=Chi Brew

    Hellfire Assault = CT + CB + PS + PoM
    Iron Reaver = X + CW + PS + PoM
    Kormrog = X + CB + PS + PoM
    Council = X + ZS + PS + PoM
    Kilrog = X + ZS + PS + PoM
    Gorefiend = X + CW + PS + PoM
    Socrethar = X + CB + PS + PoM
    Iskar = CT + CB + PS + PoM
    Velhari = X + ZS + PS + PoM
    Xhul'horac = X + CB + PS + PoM
    Zakuun = X + ZS + PS + PoM
    Mannoroth = X + CB + PS + PoM
    Archimonde = X + CB + PS + PoM

    So whats your opinion on that? And again its all about DPS output, heal doesnt matter in that case.
    And also its considered that the fights have a good killtime and adds will die in a decent time aswell (so no rank tryharding or sth.)

    Greetings and thanks.
    Last edited by mmocc1bca38968; 2015-08-12 at 11:05 AM. Reason: Added information

  2. #2
    Deleted
    From a pure DPS perspective:
    - Power Strikes beats Chi Brew, because the additional Chi usually means more DPS than the tea stacks. I can't think of a boss in the current content which has such long downtimes that the cd reg of Chi Brew pulls ahead.
    - Zen Sphere vs. Chi Wave: I'm taking a guess here, but if the numbers are about the same as for WW, Zen Sphere beats Chi Wave by a very small margin on single target. It has a higher maintenance, though, in terms of GCDs spent and attention needed (due to alternating two targets). As soon as additional targets come in, Zen Sphere pulls ahead. But in that case, CB is the best anyway.

  3. #3
    Go look at warcraftlogs.com for DPS and sort by Mistweaver. Antoinemonk is rank 1 on almost every fight on Heroic and you can pretty much just copy him. He might reply to this too.

    From what I understand, Zen Sphere is better for single targets or when there are two targets for a limited time, but Chi Burst is still really close. Power Strikes is most likely always going to be better than Chi Brew because you're not worried about burst damage and Power Strikes gives more Chi over time. As far as I'm aware, MW Chi Explosion doesn't do AoE damage so that's useless for pure damage. You always want to go PoM. Chi Torpedo for multiple targets over an extended duration, like Hellfire Assault, and Xuen otherwise.

  4. #4
    For Power Strikes vs Chi Brew, it's a simple matter - For any fight length over a minute, Power Strikes gives more chi than Chi Brew (and that doesn't even take into account pooling chi orbs before the pull w/ PS). We also don't have any good cooldowns where the big burst of chi you can get from a 2-stack CB would be really helpful. Since we don't care about the extra mana tea stacks, it's a clear choice.

    For t30, I've gone into the math of it over at my blog a few months ago, but the long and short of it is that for pure single target, Zen Sphere is the best. Even for 2-target cleave, Zen Sphere still outperforms Chi Burst, with Chi Burst surpassing Zen Sphere as number of targets goes up. Chi Wave is very lackluster - the reason it's so close to ZS for WW (extra ZS globals replacing TeB-building globals) doesn't apply to us, so it would be a very rare situation indeed where Chi Wave is the correct choice. (Another thing to note is that ZS is not SEF-friendly, which is another strike against it for WW) The main reason Chi Burst passes Zen Sphere for most encounters in HFC is because of all the extra targets you can hit with it. I'll just go fight by fight here.

    -HFA: Chi Burst, obviously, big AOE.
    -Iron Reaver: Chi Burst is probably the choice on heroic, definitely on Mythic. It's tough to get extremely good uptime on the boss for your ticking Zen Spheres. For 1-phase heroic/normal kills where he doesn't lift off and blitzes only once or twice, Zen Sphere may still be the choice. This is also the one fight that's most favorable to Chi Wave, but the fact that you can hit multiple bombs with Chi Bursts means CB>CW still.
    -Kormrok: Chi Burst here, you can line it up on the hands. Side note here though hitting all the hands with it is really hard, or I'm really bad, but I can't do it consistently.
    -Hellfire High Council: Zen Sphere here I think, though Chi Burst could also be OK. Pretty even between them depending on fight length, number of windwalks, etc
    -Kilrogg: depends how fast your group kills the adds. If you can use chi burst to hit the running guys and bloods a lot, take that, otherwise Zen Sphere
    -Gorefiend: Chi Burst here. It's impractical to get multi-hits with your ZS here, but Chi Burst's bigger range means you can easily hit tank adds and frequently the kitey skeletons
    -Iskar: Chi Burst, for the AoE
    -Socrethar: Chi Burst if you'll be able to hit the ghosts with it. If not, I think ZS is OK too. Depends on how your raid controls the casters, too. If they aren't brought into melee consistently, or die slowly once they are, then CB will probably be better.
    -Tyrant: Zen Sphere, a lot of this fight is 2-target cleave where ZS is slightly better, but there's also a decent stretch at the beginning and p3 where it's single or effectively single-target and ZS is clearly ahead there
    -Zakuun: ZS, pure ST
    -Xhul'horac: Chi Burst ends up being the better choice here. Initially I thought it would be a good ZS fight, but it's just way easier to hit all the imps and also a lot of the p2 adds with your CB
    -Mannoroth: CB, make sure to time it with the imp spawns for maximum impact
    -Archimonde: CB, a fair amount of AoE in p2 and then you can also hit some infernals at the end.
    Last edited by Antoine; 2015-08-12 at 07:50 PM.

  5. #5
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    Assuming mana is no object, are 3 ZS casts worth two jabs and an rsk? Surely not? Wouldn't ZS when either waiting on RSK or moving be a better choice, and given the frequencies of these events based on MS/Fight; be worth considering Chi Wave to make those globals more valuable?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Assuming mana is no object, are 3 ZS casts worth two jabs and an rsk? Surely not? Wouldn't ZS when either waiting on RSK or moving be a better choice, and given the frequencies of these events based on MS/Fight; be worth considering Chi Wave to make those globals more valuable?
    It may change at unreasonable extremes but for all gear values I've looked at, ZS is better than CB or CW. You can look at the blog post I linked above for a full explanation, but ZS is a bigger improvement over the time period than substituting partial or full j-j-RSKs. Keeping in mind that over a 30 second period, you'll have depending on talent, (CB) 1 global (CW) 2 globals (ZS) 3 globals. The following chart displays the damage gains from t30 over no t30 at all. (my gear, before crit/ms/vers)

    Zen Sphere Chi Burst Chi Wave
    t30 damage 69603.18 31744.00 46171.26
    J-J-RSK damage 34857.80 11619.27 23238.54
    surplus damage 34745.38 20124.74 22932.73

    And as you said this is without taking mana into account, with the extra globals on t30 that you get from Zen Sphere you'll have less mana expended, letting you drop spirit and/or reducing your time spent drinking over the course of the encounter.
    Last edited by Antoine; 2015-08-13 at 02:56 AM.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    I'm aware now that Zen Sphere will do the most damage if used on cooldown, I read the post and it was pretty interesting. It's just I have the feeling your spreadsheet does a very flawed approximation of melee damage abilities, for example look here:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=8

    I can see here it's better than two jabs and an RSK, but your melee damage estimates seem to be quite lowballed. You'll see that with your stats, two jabs and a RSK come out around 2/3 worth of 3 Zen Sphere casts (assuming one detonate hit). This is fairly consistent in all of your logs with ZS, but your spreadsheet seems to output that one ZS would do double the damage of two jabs/rsk.

    I'm not sure how you're calculating them, but with my own program and your raid buffed stats I'm getting the following:

    Average Jab : 5033
    Average RSK : 36473
    Average ZS (1 target) : 25851

    Note this isn't taking into account 20/26% from RSK, but the values would seem to be proportionally closer to your actual average RSK which is hovering around 90k or so.
    Last edited by mmoc3f252392be; 2015-08-13 at 02:06 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I'm aware now that Zen Sphere will do the most damage if used on cooldown, I read the post and it was pretty interesting. It's just I have the feeling your spreadsheet does a very flawed approximation of melee damage abilities, for example look here:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=8

    I can see here it's better than two jabs and an RSK, but your melee damage estimates seem to be quite lowballed. You'll see that with your stats, two jabs and a RSK come out around 2/3 worth of 3 Zen Sphere casts (assuming one detonate hit). This is fairly consistent in all of your logs with ZS, but your spreadsheet seems to output that one ZS would do double the damage of two jabs/rsk.

    I'm not sure how you're calculating them, but with my own program and your raid buffed stats I'm getting the following:

    Average Jab : 5033
    Average RSK : 36473
    Average ZS (1 target) : 25851

    Note this isn't taking into account 20/26% from RSK, but the values would seem to be proportionally closer to your actual average RSK which is hovering around 90k or so.
    Looking at that log you're right, something is definitely way off. I'm looking at the ratios of damage from abilities and RSK seems like it's way higher than expected, but I'm not sure why.

    Take this stretch of that log for example, since AP doesn't change during it: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...60&view=events

    Average (before-crit for all these numbers) jab is right around 4000. You'd expect your average TP to do 3.6/1.38=2.61 times that, and with an average value around 10000, we have 2.5, close enough. Average BoK should be 6.4/1.38=4.64x, with average value 17500 4.375, slightly more off but still acceptable for low sample size I think. Average RSK should be 10/1.38=7.24, but in actuality we show ~43500/4000=10.875, 1.5x expected value! I have no idea why RSK is doing that much damage, but I have a feeling it's consistent and will look more into it.

    That said, even multiplying RSK by 1.5, the new chart is as follows:

    Zen Sphere Chi Burst Chi Wave
    t30 damage 69603.18 31744.00 46171.26
    J-J-RSK damage 48516.78 16172.26 32344.52
    surplus damage 21086.40 15571.75 13826.75

    Edit: I checked my log from 2 weeks ago when I was using 2h and found the same extremely high RSK damage, so it's not just a 1h issue. Checked old BRF logs and it was present then too so it's not just 6.2

    - - - Updated - - -

    LOL I am so dumb, I figured it out - neither of us was taking into account Pool of Mists multipling Rising Sun Kick damage by 1.5
    Last edited by Antoine; 2015-08-13 at 03:03 PM.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Soo... What are the exact stat weights then when it comes to pure DPS output as Fistweaver?

  10. #10
    You could most likely sim them, but Antoine's blog has some good insight. The stat weights are still very similar to normal stat weights though. Multi is still best. Crit is a little less important because of the BoK buff. Haste is good because your auto attack damage is actually important. Vers is meh like always. Mastery is crap. A rough guess would be something like this: Multi>Haste>>>Crit>=Vers>>>Mastery. I'm sure Antoine has something a little more concrete though.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    There are no working MW sims... yet...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by xen6077 View Post
    Soo... What are the exact stat weights then when it comes to pure DPS output as Fistweaver?
    I can't just put out concrete stat weights because many of them vary widely due to Haste/Multistrike/Spirit breakpoints with each other, fight length, and talent choice. Your best bet is to create a copy of my spreadsheet, and put in your talents/stats/fight length.

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