DPS Discrepancies vs Gear

[wsgroves]

So a quick question for you all.
My lok is ilvl 700 geared with no tier, a 705 crafted weapon with Chipped and upgraded Sandman trinkets and no legendary ring.
I usually do 35-45k dps depending on movement as destro. More if there is big aoe involved.
Recently I have had the luck to do a few mythic bosses and the locks in the grps have downright been 100% more damage then me.
They have full tier/ring/trinkets from hellfire. About 715 ilvl.
I know the skill difference is there. But does tier etc make THAT MUCH difference?
When I sim myself I am not all that far behind the dps im doing. Can those gear upgrades equal 100% higher dps?
That seems crazy to me.
Thanks.

[Gaidax]

So a quick question for you all.
My lok is ilvl 700 geared with no tier, a 705 crafted weapon with Chipped and upgraded Sandman trinkets and no legendary ring.
I usually do 35-45k dps depending on movement as destro. More if there is big aoe involved.
Recently I have had the luck to do a few mythic bosses and the locks in the grps have downright been 100% more damage then me.
They have full tier/ring/trinkets from hellfire. About 715 ilvl.
I know the skill difference is there. But does tier etc make THAT MUCH difference?
When I sim myself I am not all that far behind the dps im doing. Can those gear upgrades equal 100% higher dps?
That seems crazy to me.
Thanks.

The answer is no, 15 ilvls do not result in 100% more damage output. It is certainly a big difference, but not double the damage.

Your gameplay is most likely flawed.

[EntropyJim]

If you're DPSing close to the sims, it must be the gear ;-)

Why not change the sim to use some of the gear you suspect (tier, trinkets, legendary) and resim? Get the ids from wowhead.

J.

[wsgroves]

Thanks for the info guys. I guess I will just have to work on completing the Tier bonus' etc.

[Styxxa]

I don't necessarily disagree with that statement, but 15 ilvls and bad trinkets and lack of tierset and lower ilvl weapon is going to cause a massive difference in damage output.

Just looking at the ilvl alone, like many people do, doesn't work. Even the difference between warlocks of the same ilvl can be noticable when one has 4 gemsockets on his gear (+300 mastery) and the other one has none. Or when one has a much better weapon (higher spellpower) than the other.

Or like my derping yesterday and only now noticing that my classtrinket was giving me consistently 10-15k lower DPS on mythic gorefiend compared to when I had equipped a different lower ilvl trinket instead.

Yeah, I'm with you. Tier, trinkets and a weapon are pretty huge deals. I would also note that on encounter like Hellfire Assault (which I'm assuming was one of OPs Mythic bosses) if you're playing with one or two other Destro Locks, you could be missing out on a lot of the Shadowburn opportunities that you would otherwise capitalize on if you were the only Destro lock (not to mention other classes that execute). We sometimes have 3 Destro locks in our Mythic group and the DPS between us can vary pretty wildly pull to pull just based on who's quickest to the Shadowburn trigger.

[Krazzorx]

Depending on how they do relic slots for artifact weapons in Legion, this issue could be slightly lessened. One of the current issues ofc is rng with weapon drops and what happens if they don't drop.

If relics in Legion don't have primary stats, you'll basically be able to use every "weapon" drop which will greatly reduce rng on loot drops.

[Zoldor]

4p is an extra CB during a burn phase for free if you are lucky two free ones. That is pretty intense during a burn phase. Then factor in that you don't have a legendary ring and you are talking some big dps discrepancies. Tier is the biggest changer for me and the number of other destro locks depending on the encounter. Our raid runs two locks myself and one other, when we both run destro it bounces between who is higher and lower, normally its shadow burns, extra free CBs, your Havoc CB reaching the target before theirs does and kills it, a lot of little things because as destro you are always aiming to do the same tactics and some of those tactics involve sniping. Late FnB CB that ends up hitting one target because your partners got there and killed all the little guys is super frustrating but two destro locks in the Dream phase on Killrogg on the first visions is the money maker, you'll crush DPS and no one will even have to look at an add.

Your goal should be T, Ring, Trinkets = Weapon. Do research on the fights you actively down each week and use your bonus rolls on T/high priority Trinkets/Gorefiend Staff unless you have access to the Archimonde staff (depends since you are mythic if your group still does a full heroic clear and Mythic or just the Mythics). If you are Destro for every fight and have the Chipped Soul and 6/6 Sandman you really don't have to go trinket crazy as only DSI and Archis are better than those two if I remember right in Heroic for Mythic I can't remember if some of the others pull ahead. So really get that T/Ring/Weapon and you'll be in good shape. The T and Ring make a massive difference Free CB while doing 20%-25% (can't remember baseline and don't remember max after upgrades currently available) more damage because of active ring is going to make a pretty drastic difference in your overall dps each burn phase.

[Gaidax]

I don't necessarily disagree with that statement, but 15 ilvls and bad trinkets and lack of tierset and lower ilvl weapon is going to cause a massive difference in damage output.

Just looking at the ilvl alone, like many people do, doesn't work. Even the difference between warlocks of the same ilvl can be noticable when one has 4 gemsockets on his gear (+300 mastery) and the other one has none. Or when one has a much better weapon (higher spellpower) than the other.

Or like my derping yesterday and only now noticing that my classtrinket was giving me consistently 10-15k lower DPS on mythic gorefiend compared to when I had equipped a different lower ilvl trinket instead.

Yes there is plenty difference for sure, but even a well optimized ilvl 715 player will not do 100% more damage over ilvl 700 one. That's the point... 40% more damage, yeah can believe that, but any more than that and it is most likely bad gameplay.

[kneeo]

Yes there is plenty difference for sure, but even a well optimized ilvl 715 player will not do 100% more damage over ilvl 700 one. That's the point... 40% more damage, yeah can believe that, but any more than that and it is most likely bad gameplay.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume he wasn't being literal about the 100% more damage thing.

[nerdzrool]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume he wasn't being literal about the 100% more damage thing.

It could easily be. He's 700ilvl with no tier (not even t17) or ring, and he's being brought into mythic for the first time. 700ilvl means he probably doesn't have much experience in the fights on heroic let alone mythic, and is trying to learn the encounters or his class (if it's a reroll/alt) for the first time. 15 ilvls + ring + trinkets won't make a 100% difference, but when you throw skill and fight experience into that it starts to add up. He says he's been hitting 35-45k, and I've definitely seen and done 70-80k on some of the early mythic fights so I can believe it.

[wsgroves]

It could easily be. He's 700ilvl with no tier (not even t17) or ring, and he's being brought into mythic for the first time. 700ilvl means he probably doesn't have much experience in the fights on heroic let alone mythic, and is trying to learn the encounters or his class (if it's a reroll/alt) for the first time. 15 ilvls + ring + trinkets won't make a 100% difference, but when you throw skill and fight experience into that it starts to add up. He says he's been hitting 35-45k, and I've definitely seen and done 70-80k on some of the early mythic fights so I can believe it.

Its exactly as you describe Nerdz. Pretty much spot on now that I think about it. I agree about not knowing the fights that well etc, I was simply amazed at the difference between me and them. I know the specs pretty well and usually out dps my sims and other classes I normally play with but I am no means a pro. That's why I was so shocked at the difference. Also i made a error. The other 2 locks were playing Affliction not Destro as I was, which would make a difference for sure.
It was basically a holy sheet does gear make that much a difference this tier moment so thought I would ask and thx everyone.

[kamuimac]

It was basically a holy sheet does gear make that much a difference this tier moment so thought I would ask and thx everyone.

its gear but for locks its not only tier and stuff but also the resoults will be drastickly different on some fights if they change destro/affli depending on encounter - its quite annoying tbh all this spec/trinkets swaping you forget to change 1 or 2 things and suddenly you drop from above average to mediocre on numbers :/

[unbound]

While you are doing okay (40k with a 700-702 ilvl is about average - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...unt&dataset=50 ), you aren't doing great (you are at the 50% level for your ilvl) and that could be reflective of the lack of certain gear (since you mentioned that you don't have the legendary ring).

However, you are reporting that they are double your dps. So assuming they are averaging 80k, some of it is indeed due to gear ilvl, and some of it is that they are hitting at about 75% for their ilvl ( https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...gregate=amount ). That could be reflective of slightly better skill or more optimized gear or both.

[kushlol]

dont even get me started on the night and day dps swings of affliction because of soul shard Rng ....that alone can be like 15k dps single target sometimes more. HEY LOOK I CANT REFRESH HAUNTING SPIRITS BECAUSE NIGHTFALL DOESNT PROC FOR A MINUTE COOL GAME TY /end rant

[Gaidax]

I know the specs pretty well

Are you actually sure that is true? I am not trying to be snide here and all, I merely point out that most likely your gameplay itself is flawed, which is not a far fetched assumption, because 35-45k DPS for your gear level as Destruction is not really impressive at all, people were doing 35-45k DPS in BRF Normal/Heroic gear mix and it was definitely quite a bit worse than what you have.

So yeah getting some gear will help eventually, but you shaping up a bit will help you right now at this moment.

Do you have any actual logs we can see?

[wsgroves]

You could def. be right Gaidax. Maybe I am just not personally sure how to improve myself. I have read all the guides out there. My skada priorities line up with what they are supposed to . I always keeps dot up and align CB's with trinket procs/ds. Never waste procs of backdraft on CB if I dont have to. I havoc whenever I get the chance. Just not really sure where to improve on. And yes I absolutely know I am not perfect, jut not sure where to improve it as I do not have any logs, and that doesnt give much to go on.. Thanks much.

[Deleted]

Not 100% but a significant difference. i have seen the same thing. We had 5 locks and 2 had the 4 piece and they did about 30% to 50% more damage then no tier bonus. They had the ring too. It isn't surprising but to say there wouldn't be a big difference is ignorant just check out the logs and all the big hitters have the tier bonuses etc

So you think the 2p + 4p is an increase of DPS between 30% and 50% ?

5 locks sounds more like a terrible balance and as someone mentioned before even having one other add sniper in your roster can tank your DPS on certain encounters.
I feel sorry for you! :P

[Gaidax]

So you think the 2p + 4p is an increase of DPS between 30% and 50% ?

Definitely not... it's about 15% from 0 to 4...

[Deleted]

..then you add 15 ilv difference and way better trinket/weapons

You guys are trying to climb onto mirrors or what?

[DeiVias]

tbh i think they've gone overboard with how much more powerful you are with your set and i hope this isn't a theme going forward.

Sets have always been nice to have but they've never been as mandatory as they are now.

(Yes i had/have horrible luck)