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  1. #21
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I don't think anybody is arguing who is responsible for the rape; obviously the male doing the raping. What's being said is that women can certainly contribute to making themselves more of a target based on how they dress. Does that mean the woman has done anything wrong? Of course not. Does that mean they should be forced to dress a certain way or not dress another? Absolutely not, but you cannot argue there's no correlation between the two. Saying "dressing a certain way can increase your odds of being a victim" is in no way an attempt to say it's the woman's fault or that she's done anything wrong, it's just a fact.
    Dressing conservatively increases the chance. Not "skimpy".

  2. #22
    Rape is more about power than sex so changing how someone dresses isn't going to matter so much to the rapist. The only person that is responsible for rape is the rapist. Those responsible for removing it from society is everyone.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikesglory View Post
    That's definitely not a dangerous situation. But the personal experience of the person who made this statement originally is a good example of situations you should probably avoid.

    You wouldn't walk drunk through an area known for muggings.
    You probably shouldn't get drunk with a biker gang and suggest group sex.
    You wouldn't deliberately trespass on the land of someone you know is a gun nut who shoots tresspassers on sight.
    You're more likely to get raped by a partner or friend, in your own home or their home, than by a stranger. You people seem to ignore where and how rapes actually happen.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/1...bout-rape.html

    "Chrissie Hynde was right about rape. Now feminists want to silence her"

    By Julia Hartley-Brewer

    "By saying that the way women behave and dress can contribute to sexual violence, the singer dared to challenge the othodoxy of modern feminism"

    ---

    My opinion: I agree. I think we need to be able to discuss these issues without hysteria coming from feminists who want to silence the debate, and silence people like Chrissie Hynde and Julia Hartley-Brewer.

    What do you think?
    I think you should spend more time teaching men not to rape, less time for criticizing women for how they dress.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I think you should spend more time teaching men not to rape, less time for criticizing women for how they dress.
    I don't think men need to be taught not to rape.

    I never went to 'don't rape' class and I've never had the inclination to do it.

    Maybe I am a higher form of life.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I think you should spend more time teaching men not to rape, less time for criticizing women for how they dress.
    Sure, and teach criminals not to do any crimes rather than having the police try to educate seniors on how to be safer, right? (Protip: They're not even mutually exclusive)

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/1...bout-rape.html

    "Chrissie Hynde was right about rape. Now feminists want to silence her"

    By Julia Hartley-Brewer

    "By saying that the way women behave and dress can contribute to sexual violence, the singer dared to challenge the othodoxy of modern feminism"

    ---

    My opinion: I agree. I think we need to be able to discuss these issues without hysteria coming from feminists who want to silence the debate, and silence people like Chrissie Hynde and Julia Hartley-Brewer.

    What do you think?
    I think she's an idiot.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmeebs View Post
    I don't think men need to be taught not to rape.

    I never went to 'don't rape' class and I've never had the inclination to do it.

    Maybe I am a higher form of life.
    Heh, I work for the government, so I get subjected to the videos of, "Watch the white male mistreat everyone (sexual assault included), don't be that guy" every couple years under the guise of "tolerance training" or something. ><

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Heh, I work for the government, so I get subjected to the videos of, "Watch the white male mistreat everyone (sexual assault included), don't be that guy" every couple years under the guise of "tolerance training" or something. ><
    Oh i get plenty of those.

    I work in the financial industry so I also have to watch boring videos about not bribing people and money laundering every 6 months it seems.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    While always good advice, it doesn't get to the core of the problem. It doesn't matter how the woman dresses, if she is raped it isn't her fault because of how she dressed. It is the man's fault for raping.

    I'm amazed at how this very simple concept is so difficult to understand.

    The fact that we are teaching women ways to avoid getting raped says a lot about how far we have yet to go to be the civilized society we think we are...
    This is totally missing the point, it is all about communication. If you are communicating sex to someone in whatever way then people will react to that in a sexual way too. Claiming that dressing and how you act have nothing to do with what you are communicating is delusional at best. If you do not want to give mixed signals you will have to realize what you are saying in a none verbal way. Now i hear all the crazy feminist thinking "but he can't read minds" and other bullshit like that, but that is just stupid. If i show anyone a drawing of a face that is acting out a emotion you will guess 8 out of 10 right, that is not reading minds that is simple everyday none verbal communication. If you can't do this then there is something really wrong with you..
    Now, if we can get so much information just out off seeing a picture, the whole shabang will say much much more. This includes everything, how you act, what you say, how you say it, how you dress, how you act towards new people you meet, and the list goes on and on.
    You can call this "victim blaming" all you want, but it just isn't. If you can not be responsible for what you do, say and how you act then you might as well be "the property" as so many feminists would like you to believe that woman are treated. This is a situation they have brought on themselves, by not owning up to their own role in things and teaching young girls that "what ever happens they can do no wrong" they have created young woman who are either oblivious to the world around them or trying to "game the system" as much as they can..

    http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/25/ma...male-campaign/ like this one did.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I think you should spend more time teaching men not to rape, less time for criticizing women for how they dress.
    PSA: Men already know how to not rape. They know it's illegal and generally not a good thing to do.
    However, certain individuals, for whatever reasons, decide to discard that knowledge and stick their peepee in places where it is not welcome.
    Those people are generally called "rapists"

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilla Blomma View Post
    Dangerous situations like having a boyfriend or male friends?
    Obviously, it doesn't account for every rape that happens, and not even the majority of rapes. But that doesn't mean you don't protect yourself. We tell people to drive safe all the time, not to drive dangerously and blame the person that hits them going 80mph. Even if it's that driver's fault, driving dangerously didn't help the situation.

    Let's face it, rape has been happening for as long as sex has been happening, and it won't go away anytime soon. That doesn't mean it won't go away, or that we shouldn't pursue the goal of ending rape as an institution. But if there is anything you can do to avoid it, you should do that. Many times, though, there is little a victim can do. And that is a point we need to really consider.

    Victim blaming, as a practice, assumes the victim has the majority or even all of the blame. This is a ludicrous notion, as it absolves the rapist of the crime. Yet, it still happens, because people ASSUME that rape will go on forever and that women should expect to be threatened by it forever. This is where we need to change our views. Prospective rapists need to find an outlet for their problem and education for the understanding of what is "no" and what is "yes", and women that are at risk need to be watchful and careful until those people figure it out. That will be the fastest way to make progress.

  13. #33
    Women need to be careful what they have on and what they drink and where they travel. You do not drink something a stranger gives you, you don not walk down a dark ally or walk alone at night.

    Now i know someone is going to say well are you saying men are nothing more then beasts who cant control them selves... if you think that you really have lived a sheltered lift... the world is not all sparkly ponies and sun shine there are some really nasty people and some really dumb people out there. You do not jump into a bear cave with a big steak hanging off your neck.

    On a 2nd note men should not drink something a stranger gives them walk alone at night or go down a dark ally.

    I get so confused how people call this victim blaming its like saying the guy who jumped in the lake at night saying f the gators was not at fault or the guy who wanted to take a selfie with a rattle snake....

    but again the rapist is always at fault just do not up the statistics by acting stupid.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmeebs View Post
    I don't think men need to be taught not to rape.

    I never went to 'don't rape' class and I've never had the inclination to do it.

    Maybe I am a higher form of life.
    There is the serious point that a lot of sexual assaults are carried out by people who don't realise they are carrying out sexual assaults.

    Then again I suspect if someone is stupid enough to not realise they're carrying out an assault there's probably not much likelihood that they'll be receptive to education.
    Last edited by mmocccd4d485ac; 2015-09-01 at 03:50 PM.

  15. #35
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Well, that's the discussion point basically in this: where does victim blaming begin and where does personal responsibility for your safety end?
    I'd argue that personal responsibility isn't in play when it comes to being victimized by a violent abuser. Personal responsibility shouldn't ever be raised as a potential justification for being victimized. Blaming a rape victim for the way they dress is like blaming a mugging victim for visibly having a wallet, or blaming a murder victim for having irritated their murderer.

    To any decent, normal man, a scantily clad woman isn't going to make us "rapey". We don't rape women because it's wrong, and we'd never do that. The way a woman dresses in no way makes a man "rapey". The only thing it might do is happen to catch his eye just enough for him to decide that you're his next victim. She is in no way at fault for that. If he hadn't chosen to rape her, he'd have raped someone else. Because he's a violent dickhead rapist, and he was looking for someone to victimize. That isn't in any way the victim's fault.

    The only time personal responsibility should ever be considered as a factor is when you deliberately put yourself into an explicitly bad situation. By which I mean things like breaking into the sex offenders section of a prison while stark naked and screaming "RAPE ME". Climbing into a lion's cage at the zoo, and you've only got yourself to blame when the lion attacks you. But if you're just walking down the street minding your own business when HOLY FUCK A LION, it's not your damned fault you smell like lunch.

  16. #36
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MeHMeH View Post
    If you do not want to give mixed signals you will have to realize what you are saying in a none verbal way.
    Stop trying to do this shit with "mixed signals", if someone says something contrary to how you "interpreted" them, that means you "read" their body language wrong. Like, really fucking wrong. Verbal > body language because people are so shit at interpreting body language.

  17. #37
    Woman wears clothing that invites men to look at her in a sexual way.
    Woman struts her stuff to show off her body in an area that's not so safe.
    Woman gets raped.

    Sure, the guy is definitely at fault, but sometimes it takes two to make something happen. Maybe if women would dress a bit more conservatively, maybe if women wouldn't be showing off their body so much, maybe if women would watch what they're doing at parties and such, we'd see a lot less rapes.

    Do you walk down the streets of the ghettos at night wearing an armani suit, and carrying a briefcase full of cash? Of course not. That'd be inviting a mugger to rob you blind. Do you park a Lamborghini and leave the doors unlocked and the keys in the ignition in some dark parking lot at night? I would hope not.

    So why on Earth would you want to wear skimpy clothing that invites men to lust over your body and then strut your stuff at some party where someone can drug you or grab you and make off with you and take what they want?

    Doesn't matter if it is a robbery, rape, murder, there's the person who commits the crime... and then there's the person who the crime is committed against.

    If the latter invites the former by being an easy target, or an attractive target, then the latter is partially contributing to the crime. Everybody has a responsibility to act maturely and in such a way that they are protecting themselves from such crime. Sometimes crime happens anyways even if you do take all the precautionary measures, but if you do something absolutely stupid and you become the victim of a crime... then yes, you're partially to blame for it.

    "A woman shouldn't have to change her clothing because of lustful men!"

    Ok, are you also saying that a rich man shouldn't have to change out of his armani suit before walking down the streets in a ghetto at night? lol.

    Everybody is responsible for their own personal safety. This includes women and skimpy clothing. There's no reason to wear skimpy clothing other than to get men to lust after them. Is it really THAT big of a surprise when a woman who was wearing that trashy clothing gets raped? Now, obviously, if a woman was not wearing trashy clothing and still got raped... then no, she's not at fault (unless she did something else stupid, like drinking at a party or something) at all.

    You can't just disregard personal safety and expect the rest of the world to conform to you. No, you must conform to it. If personal safety means not going down the ghetto streets at night wearing rich clothing and carrying money, then yes... that means you either have to not carry the money, not wear such rich-looking clothing, or take the long way to avoid the ghetto street. If you're a woman wanting to avoid being raped, then yes... you should not be wearing skimpy clothing and perhaps you should be avoiding parties and drinking. Perhaps if the woman in question weren't wearing trashy clothing, men might have a little more respect for her, eh?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Sure, and teach criminals not to do any crimes rather than having the police try to educate seniors on how to be safer, right? (Protip: They're not even mutually exclusive)
    You can't have it both ways. Either a fixed number of men at any given time are rapists, in which case it doesn't matter how women dress OR the way a women dresses can turn any man into a rapist.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'd argue that personal responsibility isn't in play when it comes to being victimized by a violent abuser. Personal responsibility shouldn't ever be raised as a potential justification for being victimized. Blaming a rape victim for the way they dress is like blaming a mugging victim for visibly having a wallet, or blaming a murder victim for having irritated their murderer.
    You guys keep using words like "justification" and "blame" when no reasonable people are saying that. All the topic ever amounts to is the same simple, "Don't walk through dark alleys at night, don't leave $5000 on the drivers seat of your unlocked car, etc" personal safety advice that we give in regards to pretty much every other crime, and no one whines about "victim blaming" there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    You can't have it both ways. Either a fixed number of men at any given time are rapists, in which case it doesn't matter how women dress OR the way a women dresses can turn any man into a rapist.
    No one said the latter, that's absurd. It's not about "turning people into rapists", it's about avoiding situations where predators are given better opportunity.

  20. #40
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I think you should spend more time teaching men not to rape, less time for criticizing women for how they dress.
    As a man, you don't need to teach us "not to rape". That isn't something men naturally lean to.

    You're confusing the majority of men for the minority of asshole dickface rapists. Some men get violent and murder people, but that doesn't mean all men are seething violent murderers at heart, either. Those psychopaths are the exception, not the rule.

    And yes, I don't care if you're (speaking in the VERY general, to a hypothetical, not to you, Ivanstone) pushing a girl you're dating past her comfort zone rather than grabbing a stranger and dragging her into the pushes; you're a rapist dickbag who gets off on abusing women. It isn't "normal" or "how things are"; it's you being a sick fuck.

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