"Chrissie Hynde was right about rape. Now feminists want to silence her"

[Deleted]

Rape occurs, and there is nothing we can teach to violent criminals that will change their desires, behavior and primal urges.
-snip

So all rape is just done by disturbed, unstable people? No accidents, no misjudgement, no drugs or alcohol leading to poor judgement?

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Well it should be both men and women, because men do get raped also and often face a completely different set of hurdles even to the point of society saying "You got some dude. Why are you complaining?" Can you imagine telling a woman who was raped that she should be glad she got some, and the act celebrated? That's the most unkind and callous thing anyone could do. Both are victims and both need support I should think.

Oh don't even get me started on male rape victims, that is a far worse problem that unfortunately gets less attention.

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There's plenty to educate on, but you'll find that men are routinely told to elevate women's choices above their own. By their fathers, friends, teachers, what-have-you.

You say that, but we have talked purely about women having to be the ones that limit themselves and take responsibility of their actions to prevent rape, and now that we are I haven't really seen much, outside of "don't rape". I even asked for what could be taught, and the answer so far has been nothing.

[Nadiru]

You say that, but we have talked purely about women having to be the ones that limit themselves and take responsibility of their actions to prevent rape, and now that we are I haven't really seen much, outside of "don't rape". I even asked for what could be taught, and the answer so far has been nothing.

Don't get wasted, don't slip roofies into people's drinks, no means no, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

[Deleted]

Don't get wasted, don't slip roofies into people's drinks, no means no, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

I guess it is hard thing to answer/question, I just find it troubling that woman should receive so much education and being told how to protect themselves from this and that to prevent rape, and it just leaves it at how to limit crime, not stopping it (and I know that is impossible to do completely).
Same as, we aren't going to stop any other crime or criminals, simply by locking our doors and not going anywhere, it is just limiting it.

[ringpriest]

Well put, that is exactly how I see it: victim-preventing.

This is what feminists get so wrong.

The better outcome is having less rape victims, not having better blame targets.

Which is obviously why we should ban children from being out on the streets while bars are open (no more kids killed by drunk drivers!), and all become devout fundamentalist Muslims (no more terror victims), and on and on and on. Or maybe instead, we could deal with the fact that there's way too much damned rape in our society?

[Paranoid Android]

All I have to say is: GamerGate

This is around the 427th thread with Feminism in it since the Gamergate shit happened. Go figure.

[Zython]

Outside of "don't rape people" there's not a lot that can be said.

Not true. There's a LOT of ambiguity of what constitutes rape, who rapists target, why they rape. For example, did you know there was a rape in Revenge of the Nerds? Probably not. This kind of education can help teach people how to support rape victims, or better yet, notice the warning signs of a potential rapist before it's too late.

And frankly, once that part of the discussion is done with, telling the other side "don't get raped" is pretty much what you would expect to do, and that's pretty much all these discussions boil down to. I'm not sure why "don't get raped" is considered invalid discourse when "don't rape" is considered valid, almost to the point of being mandatory.

What you're describing is how we handled drunk driving PSAs until the 80's. They were focused on protecting oneself from drunk drivers, rather than putting the onus on the drunk. This changed 30 some years ago with PSAs about designated drivers and key custodians. Incidents of drunk driving plummeted. Putting the onus on the perpetrator or bystander is FAR more effective than putting it on the victim.

The "consent" redefiners need to fucking leave the debate, though.

No one's "redefining" annoying. We're just making a basic fucking concept even more clearer. Funnily enough, this ties well into what we can do as far as education is concerned.

You are responsible for your actions: getting blackout drunk is on you, getting roofied is not.

Are you seriously arguing that raping a drunk person isn't as bad as raping a drugged person? What the hell?

[THE Bigzoman]

So all rape is just done by disturbed, unstable people? No accidents, no misjudgement, no drugs or alcohol leading to poor judgement?

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Oh don't even get me started on male rape victims, that is a far worse problem that unfortunately gets less attention.

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You say that, but we have talked purely about women having to be the ones that limit themselves and take responsibility of their actions to prevent rape, and now that we are I haven't really seen much, outside of "don't rape". I even asked for what could be taught, and the answer so far has been nothing.

In most cases...yes?

"Opps, I accidentally raped you, sawwy" sounds more ridilcidous than "I accidentally fell into you, slipped it in, and had an orgasm."

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Not true. There's a LOT of ambiguity of what constitutes rape, who rapists target, why they rape. For example, did you know there was a rape in Revenge of the Nerds? Probably not. This kind of education can help teach people how to support rape victims, or better yet, notice the warning signs of a potential rapist before it's too late.



What you're describing is how we handled drunk driving PSAs until the 80's. They were focused on protecting oneself from drunk drivers, rather than putting the onus on the drunk. This changed 30 some years ago with PSAs about designated drivers and key custodians. Incidents of drunk driving plummeted. Putting the onus on the perpetrator or bystander is FAR more effective than putting it on the victim.



No one's "redefining" annoying. We're just making a basic fucking concept even more clearer. Funnily enough, this ties well into what we can do as far as education is concerned.



Are you seriously arguing that raping a drunk person isn't as bad as raping a drugged person? What the hell?

[Deleted]

Well, I mean...if the choice is between holding rapists accountable

There is no choice - Learn the definition of: Accountable.
accountable ‎(comparative more accountable, superlative most accountable)

Having accountability (individuals have accountability); answerable.

Every man is accountable to God for his conduct.
You will be held accountable for your misdemeanors.

Requiring accountability (property or funds require accountability).
Liable to be called on to render an account;
Being answerable for.
Being liable for.
(rare) Capable of being accounted for; explicable; explainable

or smugly enjoying a woman thinking she deserved her own gang rape

A, no one is doing the first, and B; Deserved
deserve ‎(third-person singular simple present deserves, present participle deserving, simple past and past participle deserved)

To be entitled to, as a result of past actions; to be worthy to have.  

After playing so well, the team really deserved their win.
After what he did, he deserved to go to prison.
This argument deserves a closer examination.

as an attempt to shit on feminism,

This does not follow even in your insane reasoning.

as if she doesn't perfectly illustrate how toxic, pervasive, and fucked up rape culture

more like how its entirely fucking made up

actually is...the latter. Every time. Obvi.

No.
I would respond in the normal fashion, but the fail was to great.

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So your disagreement with one form of domestic abuse intervention is the sign of a feminist conspiracy? I'll counter with a known spousal rapist is one of the leading candidates for president. I think the patriarchy might have the edge here.

You are making my point, there is no support for the notion that the 'patriarchy' have anything whatsoever to do with domestic abuse.
As for conspiracy? No i said that Vawa is mired in feminist ideology, which have no foundation in reality whatsoever.

They still provide grants to the states. Furthermore, the states make their own laws and fund their own police. And all of them are connected through the same judiciary.

yes my point
No, they are most certainly not.

Correct. Todd Akin did. Best thing is to strongly disagree with his extremely unscientific nonsense instead of implying that pregnancy rates might be lower from rape.

read the bit i quoted from yours, that piece of research is in conflict with other research.
The base assumption, that a woman in distress have a harder time getting pregnant, is true, there are studies from fertility experts clearly indicating there are emotional components here.

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We don't punish criminals. We attempt to rehabilitate them. This is why they are offered the opportunity to better themselves whilst they're in prison.

the tragic irony here is of course that the relevant data on the subject holds that its not possible to rehabilitate a serial rapist.

[Foreboding]

Here we have an ACTUAL RAPE VICTIM come out and say that reasonable precautions can be taken to reduce the likelihood of rape taking place, and you have feminsts and echo-feminists ridiculing her about victim-blaming. Ironic and sad. She is in a better position than most of you out there to comment on this subject and yet, because her views border more on logic and reason as opposed to emotion, you flame her.

[Deleted]

So no rape occurs, because a man isn't clear about consent and/or lacking education on it?

the majority of rapes, are done by rapists - That is to say, exceedingly few rapes are done by one off 'mistake' - Its planned, premeditated, by psychos.

No rape happens, because a man is drunk, and loses self control and rapes somebody?

rarely - this is even more uncommon than the stranger rape scenario...

No man rapes because of misunderstood messages, that could have been educated upon?

about half of college women have said no to sex when they actually wanted sex - there is one party vastly more in need of -education-

Nothing? We have nothing to teach men about sex or consent

not really, as i said, the absolute majority of rapes are done by people who don't give a shit.

no warnings about substances that can limit their self control to make this bad decisions?

Its women that need to be told this.
A worryingly large percentage believe that if they have had a drink, they automatically were raped...

All rapes are purely unstable people acting on that?

no, they are not.

[Ivanstone]

You are making my point, there is no support for the notion that the 'patriarchy' have anything whatsoever to do with domestic abuse.
As for conspiracy? No i said that Vawa is mired in feminist ideology, which have no foundation in reality whatsoever.

Ah, so you do believe there is a conspiracy. Contrary to your belief feminism and feminists has done many great things for America. However, men still hold most of the marbles and society is unequal.

Furthermore, VAWA does provide state grants. I know the federal government is scary but all levels of government are interconnected. Which is why shit heads like Joe Arpaio, who deemed women unworthy of justice, got punked by the Feds.

the tragic irony here is of course that the relevant data on the subject holds that its not possible to rehabilitate a serial rapist.

The criminal justice attempts to rehabilitate criminals. Its difficult and perhaps impossible but the important part is to try.

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Here we have an ACTUAL RAPE VICTIM come out and say that reasonable precautions can be taken to reduce the likelihood of rape taking place, and you have feminsts and echo-feminists ridiculing her about victim-blaming. Ironic and sad. She is in a better position than most of you out there to comment on this subject and yet, because her views border more on logic and reason as opposed to emotion, you flame her.

"After being raped, I felt completely worthless. I didn't even feel like I was human anymore," she says. "And it is just so important to let these survivors know that they are not any less of a person. You don't love them any less. And that to pretend like it never happened, or to pretend like rape doesn't exist or that it only happens in the wrong parts of town — you're doing that survivor a disservice."
Elizabeth Smart

Don't hold the victim accountable. It doesn't work.

[Deleted]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/1...bout-rape.html

"Chrissie Hynde was right about rape. Now feminists want to silence her"

By Julia Hartley-Brewer

"By saying that the way women behave and dress can contribute to sexual violence, the singer dared to challenge the othodoxy of modern feminism"

---

My opinion: I agree. I think we need to be able to discuss these issues without hysteria coming from feminists who want to silence the debate, and silence people like Chrissie Hynde and Julia Hartley-Brewer.

What do you think?

Except she's wrong.

"She then compounded her sin by saying that women who dress provocatively while walking down the street while drunk were also to blame if they were attacked. “If I’m walking around in my underwear and I’m drunk? Who else’s fault can it be?” she said. "You know if you don't want to entice a rapist, don't wear high heels so you can't run from him.” "
This argument she makes is the same as "if I left my house unlocked, it's ok for burglars to come in" or "if I left my car unlocked, it's ok for someone to steal it". It's a wrong argument. In fact, it's the same argument the muslim people make... their women are dressed in burkas since otherwise they're too provocative. And it's a wrong argument. Women should be able to walk NAKED on the streets and still not fear from someone trying to rape them.

Yes, maybe indeed the woman actually managed to reduce instances of rape in campus by making women more reserved, more fearful, more conservative, more "in their place". Is this the kind of society we want to live in? Where woman are fearful of going out and having a drink? Where they only go out in packs and use the protection of the man instead of being able to be independent? I for one do not want this kind of society.

[Deleted]

Except she's wrong.

"She then compounded her sin by saying that women who dress provocatively while walking down the street while drunk were also to blame if they were attacked. “If I’m walking around in my underwear and I’m drunk? Who else’s fault can it be?” she said. "You know if you don't want to entice a rapist, don't wear high heels so you can't run from him.” "
This argument she makes is the same as "if I left my house unlocked, it's ok for burglars to come in" or "if I left my car unlocked, it's ok for someone to steal it". It's a wrong argument. In fact, it's the same argument the muslim people make... their women are dressed in burkas since otherwise they're too provocative. And it's a wrong argument. Women should be able to walk NAKED on the streets and still not fear from someone trying to rape them.

Yes, maybe indeed the woman actually managed to reduce instances of rape in campus by making women more reserved, more fearful, more conservative, more "in their place". Is this the kind of society we want to live in? Where woman are fearful of going out and having a drink? Where they only go out in packs and use the protection of the man instead of being able to be independent? I for one do not want this kind of society.

This is the crux of it - if you lay the onus of responsibility on the victim the list of things that they could potentially have been doing to prevent being raped is endless. Don't dress slutty, don't go in that part of town, use the buddy system, don't walk home at night, but taxis are dangerous too, learn self-defence, wear anti-rape nail polish and always carry pepper spray and a rape whistle. Don't leave the house. And always do what your husband says so as not to anger him.

There's no end to this kind of sexist logic. And while some people might claim that that is a slippery slope argument - the end of that slope exists today in third world countries. Even when women are as "un-provocative" as they can possibly be, they are raped and people try to find ways to blame them for it. So let's cut all that bullshit and just lay the blame where it belongs - on the rapists. Who are not, as some people seem to think, uncontrollable animals or forces of nature but people. Who can control their actions.

[Cthulhu 2020]

That is missing the point, what im about to say applies to both sexes, the way you act influences the way you are treated. So, if you go to a job interview and you are dressed like a slob and you act disinterested you will have a hard time getting that job. The people who interview you will see you and judge you on how you act and what you wear. This is nothing new, the dress code has changed a bit, but you will still be judged on nothing but that. It is not a stretch to say this judging off people goes on everywhere, all the time. Why is it that you can be judged on what you do almost everywhere, but not when you have just been a victim of rape? Why can't it matter what a girl does? I'm not saying that it would excuse the rapist, but it would paint a completer picture of what happened. Because as it stands right now a girl could undress herself, undress a guy, suck his private parts, start to ride him, become aware that she didn't want it and claim rape. I'm not saying that this happens every time, but it can happen and the rules as they are now would not exclude it.

What's your point? Should a person be scolded because they dressed provocatively and then got raped? This is one step away from victim blaming. Yes, there are things that people can do to reduce their chances of being raped, such as never ever going out of the house, but there's no reason to even consider this in a court case. A rapist is a rapist, and that does nor change even if the person was dressed provocatively. Dressing like a slob to an interview is asking to not get the job. Dressing provocatively is NOT asking to get raped. One situation is a damaging crime, the other is not.

[Deleted]

Why I became a sex offender and started raping women

She then compounded her sin by saying that women who dress provocatively while walking down the street while drunk were also to blame if they were attacked. “If I’m walking around in my underwear and I’m drunk? Who else’s fault can it be?” she said. "You know if you don't want to entice a rapist, don't wear high heels so you can't run from him.”

I actually laughed at this part. It's such a stupid thing to say that it's funny, no one should have to police themselves to avoid being the victim of a crime. You want to prevent women being raped by men? then how about you start teaching men/young men not to rape instead of telling women that in the off chance you are in a vulnerable situation to get raped, this is what you should do.

If you have sex, or rape a drunk person then you are to blame. You are the one who took advantage of someone in a vulnerable state, they are intoxicated and therefore are not thinking correctly - nor can they protect themselves should you ignore their rejection. You see a drunk person waddling around on the street you either ignore them or get them a taxi/cab you don't fucking rape them because "you can". If a woman wants to wear heels/dress or whatever then she should be able to, she shouldn't have to change clothes so she doesn't "entice a rapist"

[Gilian]

Why I became a sex offender and started raping women

She then compounded her sin by saying that women who dress provocatively while walking down the street while drunk were also to blame if they were attacked. “If I’m walking around in my underwear and I’m drunk? Who else’s fault can it be?” she said. "You know if you don't want to entice a rapist, don't wear high heels so you can't run from him.”

I actually laughed at this part. It's such a stupid thing to say that it's funny, no one should have to police themselves to avoid being the victim of a crime. You want to prevent women being raped by men? then how about you start teaching men/young men not to rape instead of telling women that in the off chance you are in a vulnerable situation to get raped, this is what you should do.

If you have sex, or rape a drunk person then you are to blame. You are the one who took advantage of someone in a vulnerable state, they are intoxicated and therefore are not thinking correctly - nor can they protect themselves should you ignore their rejection. You see a drunk person waddling around on the street you either ignore them or get them a taxi/cab you don't fucking rape them because "you can". If a woman wants to wear heels/dress or whatever then she should be able to, she shouldn't have to change clothes so she doesn't "entice a rapist"

It's still naive to think it doesn't matter and just because the blame lies with the rapist you shouldn't have to take actions to prevent it.
It's still stupid to put yourself in a situation where you are completely drunk, half naked with a bunch of horny teenagers around you who are also drunk. And it is then incredibly naive to think that would not increase the chances of something bad happening to you. This doesn't change just because you people feel women should be able to do whatever they like without getting raped.

You see a drunk person waddling around on the street you either ignore them or get them a taxi/cab you don't fucking beat them up or rob them because "you can". It still fucking happens. And I'm not stupid enough to think I am invulnerable to getting beaten up or robbed.

[Deleted]

Here we have an ACTUAL RAPE VICTIM come out and say that reasonable precautions can be taken to reduce the likelihood of rape taking place, and you have feminsts and echo-feminists ridiculing her about victim-blaming. Ironic and sad. She is in a better position than most of you out there to comment on this subject and yet, because her views border more on logic and reason as opposed to emotion, you flame her.

Exactly how is she in a better position?

[Vanyali]

Here we have an ACTUAL RAPE VICTIM come out and say that reasonable precautions can be taken to reduce the likelihood of rape taking place, and you have feminsts and echo-feminists ridiculing her about victim-blaming. Ironic and sad. She is in a better position than most of you out there to comment on this subject and yet, because her views border more on logic and reason as opposed to emotion, you flame her.

I'm an "actual rape victim" too dude.

Happened at my mom's best friend's house when ours was being bug-bombed. Woke up to one of their sons deciding I was a blow up doll or something.

[Espe]

This is the crux of it - if you lay the onus of responsibility on the victim the list of things that they could potentially have been doing to prevent being raped is endless. Don't dress slutty, don't go in that part of town, use the buddy system, don't walk home at night, but taxis are dangerous too, learn self-defence, wear anti-rape nail polish and always carry pepper spray and a rape whistle. Don't leave the house. And always do what your husband says so as not to anger him.

There's no end to this kind of sexist logic. And while some people might claim that that is a slippery slope argument - the end of that slope exists today in third world countries. Even when women are as "un-provocative" as they can possibly be, they are raped and people try to find ways to blame them for it. So let's cut all that bullshit and just lay the blame where it belongs - on the rapists. Who are not, as some people seem to think, uncontrollable animals or forces of nature but people. Who can control their actions.

Thirty-five pages and counting of misogynistic victim-blaming brought to you by Xarim, big shocker there

[Deleted]

Ah, so you do believe there is a conspiracy.

No?

Contrary to your belief feminism and feminists has done many great things for America.

Well A, i will maintain you are wrong, but whatever - B, That is has done many great things does not in any way indicate its applicable here - 'feminism has done many great things, so we should teach it instead of anatomy in medschool - See how silly that sounds?

However, men still hold most of the marbles and society is unequal.

yes women only spend 57% of the money in society, die later, get sentenced to less jail time, work less, die on the job less, have their diseases given more research funding...
Yeah i see the 'inequality'.

Furthermore, VAWA does provide state grants. I know the federal government is scary but all levels of government are interconnected. Which is why shit heads like Joe Arpaio, who deemed women unworthy of justice, got punked by the Feds.

Link the relevant shit then, regardless, your todd aikin is traded for the 300 members of congress who calls themselves feminists -

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then how about you start teaching men/young men not to rape

99% of men have not, will not, or would ever, rape anyone - Stop with this misandric garbage.

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This is the crux of it - if you lay the onus of responsibility on the victim

Because telling the rapist not to rape is a stupid idea.