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  1. #781
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    That part wasn't for you. In general. We have the general safety (of how to avoid crime) then the woman-only, which boils down to "don't commit the crime of attractive outdoors".
    Oh man, so many serial criminals on this website

  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by Druidjezus View Post
    Oh I agree, it's stupid to say they're precautions against rape. They are general precautions that people should use, and I brought them up because the woman in the article the OP posted clearly didn't exercise them, just as my friend who got robbed on the train while passed out drunk did not. People should just be careful to keep themselves safe, that's all.
    The thing is.. if she just got mugged, people would be pointing and saying "yeah, you made dumb decisions. why would you get drunk and ride off with strangers?" and so on, with some general "sorry that happened to yours". But, because it was rape, it automatically moves to "god, you're so stupid for getting drunk around men. probably dressed like a slut too. i bet you wanted it and just had regret-sex".

  3. #783
    Dreadlord Ol Scratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilla Blomma View Post
    It's pretty much impossible to do, unless you want to distrust just about any man.
    Yeah, because all men are evil rapists just biding their time. Nailed it.

    Sorry, but if you want to dramatically lower your chances of getting raped, don't dress like a slut, don't get drunk around complete and utter strangers, and don't go wandering off into quiet little areas with people you don't trust especially in a situation that is otherwise rapey. Guess what! Do those things and chances are you'll be a genuine outlier if and when you do get raped, and in those cases, you will not only get, but deserve, any and all sympathy others have to offer.

    It's all about not being a completely and utter moron. That's not "slut shaming" or "victim blaming," it's "quite being a fucktard"ing. Want to drastically lower the chances of having your car stolen? Well don't leave it idling with the door wide open when you run into a store, especially in a neighborhood known for its criminal element. That kind of logic is exactly the same sentiment behind the "don't dress like a slut, dumbass" statements.

    Does it mean having your car stolen or being raped isn't still a horrible thing to have happen to you? Nope. Does it mean the criminal doesn't deserve to be prosecuted under the full weight of the law? Nope. However, and most importantly: Does it mean you deserve any sympathy for all but inviting someone to victimize you? Nope. Just like the guy who left his car idling.

    Sure, you can do whatever you want. It's your body/your car. But don't expect anyone to feel bad for you when you do something stupid with it, not because you deserve it, but because you shouldn't have been such a fucking moron in the first place.

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilla Blomma View Post
    I've been there before in my life(Being paranoid about men), it ended up with me at a psychiatric ward for pulling a knife to a guys throat. It's not healthy.
    I do sometimes worry that's the endgame for my general distrust and disdain for just about every human I don't know personally. The weird thing is, I'm generally a cheerful, nice and helpful guy, even to strangers. I'll hold the door open for you, help you load stuff into your car, but if you make a sudden move at me I might break your jaw, just as a precaution.
    Druidjezus' Law: "As the length of any online discussion increases, the probability that [insert any topic here] will be mentioned approaches 1, duh."
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  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol Scratch View Post
    Sorry, but if you want to dramatically lower your chances of getting raped, don't dress like a slut, don't get drunk around complete and utter strangers, and don't go wandering off into quiet little areas with people you don't trust especially in a situation that is otherwise rapey. Guess what! Do those things and chances are you'll be a genuine outlier if and when you do get raped, and in those cases, you will not only get, but deserve, any and all sympathy others have to offer.
    Again: this is not the situation most rapes happen.

    66%? In your house with someone you know and trust. Tell me, is it okay to let your guard down around men in your house? Or is that being a slut too?

    Also, exhibit fucking A for what I just posted above you.

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You think there are people out there who don't know being alone drunk in an alley is dangerous? You think that's helpful advice to....anyone? Because mostly it just comes off as insulting in the face of what rape is really like more often than not.
    Actually, in one of these threads about Sexual violence, I remember someone saying they were assaulted because they got drugged to oblivion and beyond and entered in a stranger's car.

    Apparently, many people don't know it's a stupid idea.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    The thing is.. if she just got mugged, people would be pointing and saying "yeah, you made dumb decisions. why would you get drunk and ride off with strangers?" and so on, with some general "sorry that happened to yours". But, because it was rape, it automatically moves to "god, you're so stupid for getting drunk around men. probably dressed like a slut too. i bet you wanted it and just had regret-sex".
    Yeah, not sure who said that but I'd agree it was awful if they did. I've never bought into the whole 'she was dressed like a slut, so she must have wanted it' mentality. It is positively fucking ridiculous, and ANYONE who believes it is stupid, despite any argument they can give to the contrary.

    Here's a simple example, if a guy dresses like he's out to get some (and don't pretend guys don't do it, we've all seen guys in shirts that are clearly too tight, or jeans that I can't possibly believe don't make you sterile with long term use) does that automatically mean that HE is down to get it on with ANY guy who wants to? Even if we do assume that a woman is dressed 'slutty' to attract a man, isn't it HER decision who that man is, not the stranger who happened to find her attractive and decide she must want him because she's dressed like she's looking for action?

    It's completely illogical and any guy spouting that utter garbage would realize in about 5 seconds that it's not an indicator that the woman was necessarily a willing party. The furthest I would take it as a justification for trying to pick up a woman (hey, maybe she's trying to meet somebody) but drawing the line any further than that is just dumb. Even if they ARE dressed that way to 'advertise themselves' that doesn't mean they're giving away the wares to anyone who wants them, it's fucking stupid.
    Druidjezus' Law: "As the length of any online discussion increases, the probability that [insert any topic here] will be mentioned approaches 1, duh."
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  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by Druidjezus View Post
    Yeah, not sure who said that but I'd agree it was awful if they did. I've never bought into the whole 'she was dressed like a slut, so she must have wanted it' mentality. It is positively fucking ridiculous, and ANYONE who believes it is stupid, despite any argument they can give to the contrary.

    Here's a simple example, if a guy dresses like he's out to get some (and don't pretend guys don't do it, we've all seen guys in shirts that are clearly too tight, or jeans that I can't possibly believe don't make you sterile with long term use) does that automatically mean that HE is down to get it on with ANY guy who wants to? Even if we do assume that a woman is dressed 'slutty' to attract a man, isn't it HER decision who that man is, not the stranger who happened to find her attractive and decide she must want him because she's dressed like she's looking for action?

    It's completely illogical and any guy spouting that utter garbage would realize in about 5 seconds that it's not an indicator that the woman was necessarily a willing party. The furthest I would take it as a justification for trying to pick up a woman (hey, maybe she's trying to meet somebody) but drawing the line any further than that is just dumb. Even if they ARE dressed that way to 'advertise themselves' that doesn't mean they're giving away the wares to anyone who wants them, it's fucking stupid.
    You can look at the quote two above... it's a depressingly common idea that rapes happen because you "dressed like a slut and deserve it"

  9. #789
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol Scratch View Post
    Yeah, because all men are evil rapists just biding their time. Nailed it.

    Sorry, but if you want to dramatically lower your chances of getting raped, don't dress like a slut, don't get drunk around complete and utter strangers, and don't go wandering off into quiet little areas with people you don't trust especially in a situation that is otherwise rapey. Guess what! Do those things and chances are you'll be a genuine outlier if and when you do get raped, and in those cases, you will not only get, but deserve, any and all sympathy others have to offer.

    It's all about not being a completely and utter moron. That's not "slut shaming" or "victim blaming," it's "quite being a fucktard"ing. Want to drastically lower the chances of having your car stolen? Well don't leave it idling with the door wide open when you run into a store, especially in a neighborhood known for its criminal element. That kind of logic is exactly the same sentiment behind the "don't dress like a slut, dumbass" statements.

    Does it mean having your car stolen or being raped isn't still a horrible thing to have happen to you? Nope. Does it mean the criminal doesn't deserve to be prosecuted under the full weight of the law? Nope. However, and most importantly: Does it mean you deserve any sympathy for all but inviting someone to victimize you? Nope. Just like the guy who left his car idling.

    Sure, you can do whatever you want. It's your body/your car. But don't expect anyone to feel bad for you when you do something stupid with it, not because you deserve it, but because you shouldn't have been such a fucking moron in the first place.
    I'm sorry but the clothes one chooses to wear is in no way equivalent to leaving keys in the car. Nor is it actually relevant to the likelihood that the person will be raped. I understand what you're getting at, but the facts you used to form your opinion are all kinds of messed up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    You can look at the quote two above... it's a depressingly common idea that rapes happen because you "dressed like a slut and deserve it"
    Yeah, sorry, I sometimes forget how many stupid people there are in the world (but only ever briefly, thanks to the internet).
    Druidjezus' Law: "As the length of any online discussion increases, the probability that [insert any topic here] will be mentioned approaches 1, duh."
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  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    Again:

    Most rapes have little to do with alcohol. And most of the "protections" given for it do fuck-all for people you known and trust, as you're not out anywhere - you're in your house, hanging out with a friend (or at their house). Tell me... how would you protect against being assaulted in your own home by someone you know and trust? Why should you be afraid to hang out or, in the other cases, have a drink with someone you've known for years in your own home?

    Unless the solution is "don't do anything around men, ever", you'll realize why that stance is so bullshit.
    Coming from NCADD< which is the National Council of Alcohol and Drug Dependency, they say out of all alcohol based crimes, rape is number 1, with about 40% of all crimes committed is rape. Out of every 1,000 people that's 400 that were raped because of alcohol.

    1 in 5 women are raped in the United States. (Yes, I am using their statistics for this.
    That's 20%, so out of 1,000 people that's 200 women were raped. Guess in the alcohol statistic the others were men.

    47% of the rapes happen by Acquaintances (from RAINN) 200 = 94
    25% of the rapes happen by Close Friend and intimates = 50
    5% of the rapes happen by Relatives = 10

    So obviously Acquaintances out rank everything. RAINN also states 37% of all rapes that happen involves alcohol. That's = 74

    94+50+10 = 154 of the 200.

    So out of the 200, that leaves 46 stranger rapes. We'll say all of those, involved alcohol (which actually most don't according to statistics.) That would leave 28 people rapes by a Acquaintance, Intimate, or Family members while they were intoxicated (as in the victim.) I still think that percentage is to high and that would cut out a lot of rape if we made smarter decisions about drinking.

  11. #791
    Quote Originally Posted by AzazeltheRuthless View Post
    Coming from NCADD< which is the National Council of Alcohol and Drug Dependency, they say out of all alcohol based crimes, rape is number 1, with about 40% of all crimes committed is rape. Out of every 1,000 people that's 400 that were raped because of alcohol.

    1 in 5 women are raped in the United States. (Yes, I am using their statistics for this.
    That's 20%, so out of 1,000 people that's 200 women were raped. Guess in the alcohol statistic the others were men.

    47% of the rapes happen by Acquaintances (from RAINN) 200 = 94
    25% of the rapes happen by Close Friend and intimates = 50
    5% of the rapes happen by Relatives = 10

    So obviously Acquaintances out rank everything. RAINN also states 37% of all rapes that happen involves alcohol. That's = 74

    94+50+10 = 154 of the 200.

    So out of the 200, that leaves 46 stranger rapes. We'll say all of those, involved alcohol (which actually most don't according to statistics.) That would leave 28 people rapes by a Acquaintance, Intimate, or Family members while they were intoxicated (as in the victim.) I still think that percentage is to high and that would cut out a lot of rape if we made smarter decisions about drinking.
    Your entire post just boiled down to "you're not safe around your friends and family members". That's a frightening statement to make.

    Think about it. You're arguing against feeling safe enough with friends, intimate partners, and family members to drink. Would you, as a man, feel that you couldn't drink around male friends and get drunk because you might be sexually assaulted and be okay with living like that? Or being told that you can't trust them (or your dad, uncle, grandpa, etc) because omgrapists?

    That's why it's bullshit. That's why this omgalcohol is selling fear. It's selling the idea that you are NEVER safe, that you can NEVER let your guard around, that men will ALWAYS get you no matter where you are or how much you trust them. It's bullshit. It's stupid. It's goddamn sexist against men as well.

  12. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    Again: this is not the situation most rapes happen.

    66%? In your house with someone you know and trust. Tell me, is it okay to let your guard down around men in your house? Or is that being a slut too?

    Also, exhibit fucking A for what I just posted above you.
    And you do realize in these cases, any sort of "education" is meaningless, right?

    The only ones you can really PREVENT are the ones that you can have any agency over.

    You cannot have agency over male or females that rape relatives or other close people to feel powerful.
    You cannot have agency over yourself to defend yourself from unwanted advances if you have your senses impaired.

    The point about personal responsibility is because no matter how much you try, it is impossible to avoid the others. So punish those, and deal with the ones you CAN CHANGE. Avoid drawing the attention of people without self control, be it on the street or in class or at work.

    As someone pointed out, most rapes by people you know are done by ACQUAINTANCES, not really close friends. Literally half of these.

    If people truly believe going around saying "Don't rape, kids!" is going to do anything, they're more insane than the rapists.
    Last edited by bewbew; 2015-09-03 at 08:17 PM.

  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by bewbew View Post
    And you do realize in these cases, any sort of "education" is meaningless, right?

    The only ones you can really PREVENT are the ones that you can have any agency over.

    You cannot have agency over male or females that rape relatives or other close people to feel powerful.
    You cannot have agency over yourself to defend yourself from unwanted advances if you have your senses impaired.

    The point about personal responsibility is because no matter how much you try, it is impossible to avoid the others. So punish those, and deal with the ones you CAN CHANGE.

    If people truly believe going around saying "Don't rape, kids!" is going to do anything, they're more insane than the rapists.
    Or.. you could actively work toward a better understanding of consent, safe sex, and actually useful information in sex ed rather than 6 years of "don't have sex!" and birth videos.

    Or stop trying to act like the majority of rapes are from strangers, when that's flat-out not true. Or that clothes mean "you're asking for it and kinda deserve it", because that's fucked up toward both men and women.

  14. #794
    http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/...&context=djglp
    a study basically showed that the more provocative dressers were viewed as more assertive and in control and less enticing targets. This is why it's dangerous to lump in many events together (drinking, alone, dressed provacatively, etc)

    There is nothing wrong with being safe as far as travelling in groups or watching what you drink. It is wrong that you HAVE to though. A university near me has started to have a mandatory session for freshman that helps them understand the dangers of rape and what is defined as rape. Everyone seems to have a grasp on jumping out of a bush at knife/gun point but a shocking number of people think unconscious sex is ok. Or that permission can't be cancelled. Seems crazy but there are actually people who rape others who don't know they are raping others :S.

    Honestly everything I've seen has implied that what rape is isn't obvious and helping young people understand what is and isn't would be very helpful.

    No matter what, there's always going to be felons whole do this shit regardless of education but that doesn't mean education is a waste of time.

  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by bewbew View Post
    If people truly believe going around saying "Don't rape, kids!" is going to do anything, they're more insane than the rapists.
    Yeah but we should't completely neglect the portion of dealing with the actual rapists themselves. Pretty sure if we did a bit more than lock them up for 20 years and letting them out in 5 that might be a deterrent. Part of me wants to say next that we should also educate young people better on the realities of rape, but then the thought of telling a bunch of 11 year olds that they're more likely to be sexually assaulted by a family member or friend than by a stranger, well, it actually made me sad.
    Druidjezus' Law: "As the length of any online discussion increases, the probability that [insert any topic here] will be mentioned approaches 1, duh."
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  16. #796
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    Or.. you could actively work toward a better understanding of consent, safe sex, and actually useful information in sex ed rather than 6 years of "don't have sex!" and birth videos.

    Or stop trying to act like the majority of rapes are from strangers, when that's flat-out not true. Or that clothes mean "you're asking for it and kinda deserve it", because that's fucked up toward both men and women.
    Understanding consent is meaningless. Drunk person with impaired senses and horny will not be thinking about what he/she learnt on a crappy class, but will act on his impulses and desires, unless he has self control that endures the booze (which most people actually...don't. And is not something that can be taugth, anyway).

    Frustrated, traumatized person will violate other's people integrity to feel better about themselves. "Teaching" them to feel good about themselves when...they simply don't...doesn't do anything.

    Also...

    I actually consider my acquitainces as strangers. Like, honestly. People I see on a daily baisis and say "Hello", "How's the weather?" and "Goodbye" are strangers, to me. Yet those people are being listed as "people you know and that might rape you". Sorry, but I don't let my guard down around these people, either. Takes more to really know a person than exchanging pleasantries, yet study would say they're "people you know".

    And considering all of the above, if by not drawing attention you avoid acquaintances and strangers from seeing you as a vulnerable target....that is still good. It's less victims. It's people not even showing up on stupid statistics and having to live with the pain.

    I said it once and I repeat - you cannot measure how many people actively avoid being mugged, assaulted, raped or anything with statistics because...they simply don't show up. Numbers alone do not and will never paint the whole picture and give meaning to anything.
    Last edited by bewbew; 2015-09-03 at 08:30 PM.

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    If she is making a decision with respect to wanting to have sex it's consensual. The argument that being drunk invalidates a decision to have sex is ludicrous. The only time it's rape is if she is passed out or you are drugging her.

    Two things; you are suggesting a thought crime, and going out to a bar and buying drinks for someone isn't FORCING THEM regardless of your intentions. She can refuse the alcohol, she can refuse to go home with you, she has agency and this bullshit argument suggests that women are nothing more than overgrown children (a common theme for third wave feminist SJW bullshit). We're not, stop with this feminist bullshit please.
    Most states and the US military are in agreement with my statement. Honestly I am of the same opinion as you that you can turn down the drinks. However that was 100% from a legal standpoint.

    The US military definitely considers it rape. You cannot consent to sex while drunk according to them and can and will be charged with rape if a girl/guy says you had sex with them while they were drunk. The term drunk even has no real definition for it which is silly. How drunk is drunk to them? It's your word versus theirs and the accuser is now pretty much 100% believed in the military unless you had witnesses otherwise. Like they LITERALLY told us about a year ago that if you get accused of rape(just accused) your career is done. Not only that, but if you know of a POSSIBLY rape and don't report it, your career is done. Thank god i got out in December.

  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by bewbew View Post
    Understanding consent is meaningless. Drunk person with impaired senses and horny will not be thinking about what he/she learnt on a crappy class, but will act on his impulses and desires, unless he has self control that endures the booze (which most people actually...don't. And is not something that can be taugth, anyway).

    Frustrated, traumatized person will violate other's people integrity to feel better about themselves. "Teaching" them to feel good about themselves when...they simply don't...doesn't do anything.

    Also...

    I actually consider my acquitainces as strangers. Like, honestly. People I see on a daily baisis and say "Hello", "How's the weather?" and "Goodbye" are strangers, to me. Yet those people are being listed as "people you know and that might rape you". Sorry, but I don't let my guard down around these people, either. Takes more to really know a person than exchanging pleasantries, yet study would say they're "people you know".

    And considering all of the above, if by not drawing attention you avoid acquaintances and strangers from seeing you as a vulnerable target....that is still good. It's less victims. It's people not even showing up on stupid statistics and having to live with the pain.

    I said it once and I repeat - you cannot measure how many people actively avoid being mugged, assaulted, raped or anything with statistics because...they simply don't show up. Numbers alone do not and will never paint the whole picture and give meaning to anything.

    A study has been linked showing that conservative dress is more likely to be targeted (due to tending toward being more submissive and seen as weak).. yet you ignore that, entirely, because "skimpy drunk people!".

    Listen, I get it. The narrative is really easy to push that it's always a drunk person, it's always regret sex. It's not. It's just fucking not. Not a single thing bears out this narrative. Everything actually bears out the opposite. Neither are a major factor of why rapes occur. Shit, even in the ones htat are flag-held here, it's rarely alcohol - it's "well she can't just say NO right when we're getting started" or "she can't change her mind after getting someone excited".. yes, she can. So can he. THAT is where learning about consent comes very fucking handy, as well as learning that playing "no means yes" games are stupid, and that you shouldn't play that game, nor decide that someone is playing that game, unless you've established it beforehand and have a very specific "no" word if you're not going to use no.

  19. #799
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    Or.. you could actively work toward a better understanding of consent, safe sex, and actually useful information in sex ed rather than 6 years of "don't have sex!" and birth videos.

    Or stop trying to act like the majority of rapes are from strangers, when that's flat-out not true. Or that clothes mean "you're asking for it and kinda deserve it", because that's fucked up toward both men and women.
    Except most rapists are considered to have some sort of psychological disorder. Thus education doesn't fix that. Therapy and pills do, but most people don't know they are a rapist until it happens or close to happens. Perhaps we should bring everyone into sessions to determine if they have the potential to be a rapist and then make them go to therapy and get on drugs. Then after that we should also determine who has the potential to be a thief and weed them out so we can leave our doors open at night. Then after that we should determine who has the potential to physically assault and murder people so we can wander about at all hours of the night in any neighborhood we please.

    OR

    We could take the more cost effective and sensible route and protect ourselves against rape, theft, assault, and murder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    A study has been linked showing that conservative dress is more likely to be targeted (due to tending toward being more submissive and seen as weak).. yet you ignore that, entirely, because "skimpy drunk people!".

    Listen, I get it. The narrative is really easy to push that it's always a drunk person, it's always regret sex. It's not. It's just fucking not. Not a single thing bears out this narrative. Everything actually bears out the opposite. Neither are a major factor of why rapes occur. Shit, even in the ones htat are flag-held here, it's rarely alcohol - it's "well she can't just say NO right when we're getting started" or "she can't change her mind after getting someone excited".. yes, she can. So can he. THAT is where learning about consent comes very fucking handy, as well as learning that playing "no means yes" games are stupid, and that you shouldn't play that game, nor decide that someone is playing that game, unless you've established it beforehand and have a very specific "no" word if you're not going to use no.
    You just disproved the study in your own words. It wasn't the dress, but rather their demeanor that made them a target. /thread

    If you had a submissive quiet girl dressed in daisy dukes and a quiet submissive girl dressed in a burka, the girl in daisy dukes would be more likely to get raped.

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    You just disproved the study in your own words. It wasn't the dress, but rather their demeanor that made them a target. /thread

    If you had a submissive quiet girl dressed in daisy dukes and a quiet submissive girl dressed in a burka, the girl in daisy dukes would be more likely to get raped.
    Except nothing but your opinion backs that statement up.

    Go ahead and keep giving your meaningless advice about how everyone needs to be "careful" though.

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