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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaelai View Post
    Woman wears clothing that invites men to look at her in a sexual way.
    Woman struts her stuff to show off her body in an area that's not so safe.
    Woman gets raped.

    Sure, the guy is definitely at fault, but sometimes it takes two to make something happen. Maybe if women would dress a bit more conservatively, maybe if women wouldn't be showing off their body so much, maybe if women would watch what they're doing at parties and such, we'd see a lot less rapes.

    Do you walk down the streets of the ghettos at night wearing an armani suit, and carrying a briefcase full of cash? Of course not. That'd be inviting a mugger to rob you blind. Do you park a Lamborghini and leave the doors unlocked and the keys in the ignition in some dark parking lot at night? I would hope not.

    So why on Earth would you want to wear skimpy clothing that invites men to lust over your body and then strut your stuff at some party where someone can drug you or grab you and make off with you and take what they want?

    Doesn't matter if it is a robbery, rape, murder, there's the person who commits the crime... and then there's the person who the crime is committed against.

    If the latter invites the former by being an easy target, or an attractive target, then the latter is partially contributing to the crime. Everybody has a responsibility to act maturely and in such a way that they are protecting themselves from such crime. Sometimes crime happens anyways even if you do take all the precautionary measures, but if you do something absolutely stupid and you become the victim of a crime... then yes, you're partially to blame for it.

    "A woman shouldn't have to change her clothing because of lustful men!"

    Ok, are you also saying that a rich man shouldn't have to change out of his armani suit before walking down the streets in a ghetto at night? lol.

    Everybody is responsible for their own personal safety. This includes women and skimpy clothing. There's no reason to wear skimpy clothing other than to get men to lust after them. Is it really THAT big of a surprise when a woman who was wearing that trashy clothing gets raped? Now, obviously, if a woman was not wearing trashy clothing and still got raped... then no, she's not at fault (unless she did something else stupid, like drinking at a party or something) at all.

    You can't just disregard personal safety and expect the rest of the world to conform to you. No, you must conform to it. If personal safety means not going down the ghetto streets at night wearing rich clothing and carrying money, then yes... that means you either have to not carry the money, not wear such rich-looking clothing, or take the long way to avoid the ghetto street. If you're a woman wanting to avoid being raped, then yes... you should not be wearing skimpy clothing and perhaps you should be avoiding parties and drinking. Perhaps if the woman in question weren't wearing trashy clothing, men might have a little more respect for her, eh?
    I agree with you, what you said is logical, but you're going to get whiny feminists and SJW's that still won't agree because "hur dur victim blaming".

  2. #122
    Deleted
    Honestly I can understand the concept of taking responsibility for the exposure one puts themselves into, but it is still just wrong in my head that a person should feel that they are at fault for something that another person forcibly exposes them to, be it mental or physical harm. Not to mention the mindset that it is one's own fault, can be extremely harmful and is not part of the healing process.

    As for silencing, the article doesn't really provide anything to support that and just mentions it as truth. So it is taking it at face value, which of course is humours seeing how that is usually the thing that gets criticized until it fits oneself gentle Xarim jab
    Last edited by mmoccd6b5b3be4; 2015-09-01 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #123
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Thinking that a woman is dressed "like a whore" is precisely "clothes shaming". You didn't even finish the post without contradicting yourself.
    I didn't contradict myself, and if you had really really read it then you would have noticed that i was talking not talking of dressed woman like a whore, you are cherry picking.
    What i did say that it doesn't matter if you dress like a NUN or like a whore, you will be treated on how you are dressed. So to explain it to you like you are five, it doesn't matter on what extreme part of the clothing spectrum you care to dress, you will be judged on how you dress by everyone you meet.
    So, now lets go to the point you failed to answer and tried to deflect with this word twisting nonsense.
    Last edited by mmoc4a3002ee3c; 2015-09-01 at 04:27 PM.

  4. #124
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaelai View Post
    Stop implying that women don't view themselves as sexual objects when they do their best to try and get men to look at them in a sexual way, lol.
    It's the word that I put in bold that was the issue women being treated as "sexual objects". Not that women are sexual, but that they are objectified, and treated as if they exist to be used, by men.

    Women absolutely view themselves as sexual. They don't view themselves as objects, without rights or feelings or desires of their own. Which is what the phrase means.


  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    If you cant control yourself, the problem is you, not her. Keep your dick in your pants.
    It isn't about me, it is about those who would rape. *shrugs*

    But apparently, everybody thinks that people should be able to live their lives as dangerously as they feel like, with practically no regard for their own personal safety. But then I guess that's the Lawsuit Mentality of the USA these days. If I get dead drunk and stick a ladder up against a building, and try to climb up it backwards and fall and break my leg, I can sue the ladder company if the sticker that says "do not use this while drunk" is missing, rather than accepting that it was my own stupid fault for trying to climb it while drunk.

    The USA these days is all about blaming everybody ELSE rather than looking at things we did ourselves that contributed to the problem.

    Nobody wants to admit their own part in something. They want to point the fingers at everybody else. The girl who dresses in super-short skirt, showing off half of her breasts who gets dead drunk at a party and shoots up on drugs and ends up raped won't ever admit she did anything wrong, and how DARE anybody try to say she did anything wrong, how DARE they victim-blame when they tell her that she did very stupid things that led up to her being raped....

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    The moment you start victim blaming, is the moment you make it much easier for rapists to actually get away with it. You can recognize that it's dumb to act in a manner that would entice people, but in the end a no means no. I also clearly said 'act', because I don't believe that dress is a valid way of enticing people. Just because a girl is wearing a tiny dress doesn't mean she is trying to entice men.
    Sorry but as soon as she willingly starts making choices to do things that will incapacitate herself from protecting herself (getting blackout drunk with strangers and shooting up drugs), then she has to shoulder some of the responsibility. Honestly think how much people would learn if they figured out that bad choices lead to horrible consequences.
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  7. #127
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeHMeH View Post
    I didn't contradict myself, and if you had really really read it then you would have noticed that i was thinking of dressed woman like a whore, you are cherry picking.
    You literally just contradicted yourself, again. Saying a woman "looks like a whore" is shaming her for how she's dressed. You insisting that she does look like a whore just means that you're shaming and demeaning women without consciously knowing that you're doing so, which is a greater mark against you, because you don't even have the self-awareness (or, potentially, the recognition of women as people like yourself) to recognize it.


  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    The moment you start victim blaming, is the moment you make it much easier for rapists to actually get away with it. You can recognize that it's dumb to act in a manner that would entice people, but in the end a no means no. I also clearly said 'act', because I don't believe that dress is a valid way of enticing people. Just because a girl is wearing a tiny dress doesn't mean she is trying to entice men.
    Praytell why ELSE she'd be wearing skimpy clothing?

    I can't think of a single practical use for wearing skimpy clothing other than trying to look sexually pleasing to men. Unless she's Bi or lesbian or something and trying to look nice to other girls, but still. Is there really a need to be walking around in public dressed like that?

  9. #129
    Moderator Crissi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaelai View Post
    It isn't about me, it is about those who would rape. *shrugs*

    But apparently, everybody thinks that people should be able to live their lives as dangerously as they feel like, with practically no regard for their own personal safety. But then I guess that's the Lawsuit Mentality of the USA these days. If I get dead drunk and stick a ladder up against a building, and try to climb up it backwards and fall and break my leg, I can sue the ladder company if the sticker that says "do not use this while drunk" is missing, rather than accepting that it was my own stupid fault for trying to climb it while drunk.

    The USA these days is all about blaming everybody ELSE rather than looking at things we did ourselves that contributed to the problem.

    Nobody wants to admit their own part in something. They want to point the fingers at everybody else. The girl who dresses in super-short skirt, showing off half of her breasts who gets dead drunk at a party and shoots up on drugs and ends up raped won't ever admit she did anything wrong, and how DARE anybody try to say she did anything wrong, how DARE they victim-blame when they tell her that she did very stupid things that led up to her being raped....
    Women dress up for mroe reasons than to impress men however, so blaming them for teasing men with their dress is just showing you dont know how women mind's work half the time. Dressing up is fun and a self esteem booster a lot of the time.

  10. #130
    Deleted
    Common endus, still haven't heard from you how clothing is not a form of expressing your self, and how this expression of self isn't a form of communicating.

  11. #131
    Moderator Crissi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaelai View Post
    Praytell why ELSE she'd be wearing skimpy clothing?

    I can't think of a single practical use for wearing skimpy clothing other than trying to look sexually pleasing to men. Unless she's Bi or lesbian or something and trying to look nice to other girls, but still. Is there really a need to be walking around in public dressed like that?
    Self esteem is a lot of it. We want to look good and dress certain ways because it makes us feel good.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    So tis all or nothing? Why does a woman deserve what she gets for looking pretty? If a girl dresses to impress, that doesnt mean impress everyone. Only the people that matter (typically friends and men that she likes). Men that arent her tastes dont have carte blanche to do what they want just cause of dress.
    That line of thought is thinking the world is a safe place.... sadly its not

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeHMeH View Post
    Common endus, still haven't heard from you how clothing is not a form of expressing your self, and how this expression of self isn't a form of communicating.
    All kinds of "communication" that happens from how you dress is based on the subjective interpretation of others who see them. If they say something contrary to your belief about what they communicate with their dress, that means you were wrong. Which happens in like vast majority of cases when people judge someone by how they dress.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You literally just contradicted yourself, again. Saying a woman "looks like a whore" is shaming her for how she's dressed. You insisting that she does look like a whore just means that you're shaming and demeaning women without consciously knowing that you're doing so, which is a greater mark against you, because you don't even have the self-awareness (or, potentially, the recognition of women as people like yourself) to recognize it.
    So basically you're saying it is OK for women to walk around in trashy clothing and nobody should say anything whatsoever against them?

    sigh.

    This is what is wrong with our country nowadays. I remember back in the 80s when people actually wore respectful looking clothing, they didn't show half of their body off, etc. They weren't forced to run around in burqas but yet they wore respectful clothing for the most part.

    Nowdays I see 16 and 17 year olds running around with bare bellies and their breasts threatening to pop out of their tops, and every time they bend over they expose half of their butt which has only a thong over it.

    The same kind of people who end up on welfare with 5+ kids.

    And of course that doesn't teach them anything, they STILL walk around in trashy clothing even after that.

  15. #135
    Deleted
    To me there are two interesting and distinct parts to the article.

    1- The issue of consent and victim-blaming

    "Miss Hynde said that she took "full responsibility" for being sexually assaulted by an Ohio biker gang when she was 21, while she was drunk, high on drugs and had chosen to get on the back of a gang member’s motorcycle."

    Modern feminists keep saying that drunk women cannot consent at all (but men can, even while drunk)- so when having consensual sex with a drunk woman, the man is raping her and the woman is automatically a victim.

    I disagree very strongly with this sexist and nonsensical notion, and it turns out so do Hynde and Hartley-Brewer.

    This is not victim-blaming. It is simply common sense. Drunk women are no more or less able to consent than drunk men.

    2- The issue of dogmatic feminism and censorship of dissent

    "Miss Hynde, once seen as a strong feminist role model, had unwittingly breached the first rule of the Sisterhood club: if you want to belong, then you have to conform. There is no room for debate, nuanced argument or even personal opinion in the Sisterhood orthodoxy. You’re either a Sister and agree that women take no responsibility for anything that happens to them or their bodies whatever the circumstances, or you are a “rape apologist”. It’s one or the other."

    Modern feminists keep trying to censor factual opinions that don't agree with their conspiracy theory patriarchy narrative of issues like consent, pay gap, history, economics, really everything.

    This is not the way to conduct a debate, by shouting down dissenting opinions or trying to censor them. I again agree with Hartley-Brewer when she says this in the article.

  16. #136
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    This thread was certainly depressing read.

    I hate the internet some days.
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  17. #137
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaelai View Post
    Praytell why ELSE she'd be wearing skimpy clothing?

    I can't think of a single practical use for wearing skimpy clothing other than trying to look sexually pleasing to men. Unless she's Bi or lesbian or something and trying to look nice to other girls, but still. Is there really a need to be walking around in public dressed like that?
    Or looking nice, for herself. Hell, I've known girls who'd put on makeup and then not go out at all. They put the makeup on for themselves, not for anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeHMeH View Post
    Common endus, still haven't heard from you how clothing is not a form of expressing your self, and how this expression of self isn't a form of communicating.
    That isn't what you were saying, before. You were trying to say that women's clothes were communicating that they were "whores", which was outrageous and misogynist.


  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Self esteem is a lot of it. We want to look good and dress certain ways because it makes us feel good.
    Okay, so showing half of your naughty bits makes you feel good about yourself?

    Oi......

    I don't even know where to start with that. Is your self-esteem so low that you need to show your body off to feel good about yourself? Seriously?

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcuffel View Post
    I agree with you, what you said is logical, but you're going to get whiny feminists and SJW's that still won't agree because "hur dur victim blaming".
    Hi! I just had to say I agree with everything you said, and Yeah, I agree, and I will also agree that our society does help perpetuate rape culture, and sexist and abusive traditions and attitudes.
    Last edited by Doctor Amadeus; 2015-09-01 at 04:34 PM.
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  20. #140
    I think a large part of the issue with the discussion is that what one side calls 'covering your ass' the other side is calling victim blaming.

    It's very interesting how stubborn people get about this but when compared to other crimes it's considered perfectly normal. The fact is that by pretending the victim has nothing to do with it we're actually helping rapists (yes, I said it, I meant it, shame on you if you pretend the victim is a complete non-factor in rape).

    Rape is a crime, and while (as the stats will indicate) it is rarely some stranger tackling a woman in a dark alley as television would probably have us believe that does not mean that perpetrators don't 'case' their victims.

    When a friend of mine passed out on the train in Chicago and woke up the next morning without a cell phone or wallet (his pockets were slit in his sleep) we didn't pretend like he didn't make any mistakes. I'm not saying people can't be completely careful and still find themselves a victim, but the fact is that there are things people can do to protect themselves, and that includes protecting oneself from rape. I don't think it is victim blaming to tell a woman that it's a good idea to carry pepper spray, or not to take a drink that's been opened before it reaches her. That's like saying it's victim blaming to tell a shop owner to bolt the door at night. Rapists are criminals, and one of the things that emboldens criminals is the belief that
    A. they will succeed
    and
    B. they won't get caught

    Now, I like to try and spot vulnerabilities because I'm paranoid and kind of a security nut (maybe that's why I have this stance to begin with) so I always try and notice right away when a shop does or does not have cameras, if a house I'm visiting has a security system, which doors would be easier to break in through, and which people would be easiest to pickpocket without being noticed. Basically so I can avoid any of these mistakes myself. I'm relatively confident if I'm sizing up people 'just cuz' then people who are actually out to victimize someone would do the same thing.

    So if it's called 'victim blaming' to say that a woman who puts herself in vulnerable positions puts a bullseye on themselves for rape the same way a guy stumbling home from the bar puts a bullseye on himself to be robbed, then sure, call it what you want. The fact is, that while the IDEAL situation would be that women don't need to worry about being raped regardless of what they do or wear, that is a child's fantasy and will never happen. And if I was going to go after someone I'd probably target the woman with the skimpy outfit if for no other reason than it would be more difficult to conceal a weapon (although people do get pretty creative).

    I'm not saying all this trying to take the position that the victim's conditions in any way mitigates the severity of the crime, but it is sheer foolishness to act like 'well, there was nothing you could have done to prevent it' when a girl gets drugged or a guy gets robbed on the train or a family has their home broken into. It's just a sort of naivety I'm not comfortable with espousing, even in the name of making people feel better. There are often things you can do and should do to keep yourself safe, and while I agree it is sad that people should have to worry about doing these things trying to pretend that reality isn't reality is just stupid.
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