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  1. #1
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Idea for Demonology (If Meta is removed)

    I had some time to think while I was watching my niece yesterday and I came up with a idea for a new (sorta) system for Demonology if Meta is removed.

    Now I know something like this would be hard to balance and seeing anything like it in game would likely never happen but I was wondering what people thought about it.

    It would be around a system of being able to control two demons...but not two of the same type...so no two of the same demon A.K.A. No dual Wrathguard for insane AoE with Wrathstorm and Mortal Cleave.

    I suppose the idea would be described something like demonic sacrifice but instead of your demons being dead...they give you a buff while they're up (and obviously not as powerful of buffs)

    You'd be able to summon two different demons...and each show up as a buff...which will give you a small passive buff which how I picture it will vary from demon to demon. So when you have two demons you will have two buffs. You would be able to right click and deactivate the buff which will dismiss the demon (I pictured a system like this so it makes it easier to dismiss a demon and switch to another without having to possibly dismiss both demons to summon a different one)

    I was thinking maybe small buffs...I haven't thought them all over yet but I was thinking something like

    Imp/Fel Imp: Small passive damage buff to Soul Fire or perhaps a free Molten Core proc every 15 seconds?

    Voidwalker/Voidlord: Charge of Shadowy or Void shield every 15 seconds for the player?

    Succubus/Shivarra: Not sure with this one

    Felhunter/Observer: Thing I came up with was when they Shadow Bite/Tongue Lash while corruption was up maybe the ability did extra damage through instant burst or a short duration DoT.

    Felguard/Warthguard: Not sure what I'd do with them since they're heavily melee based and deal no real magic damage

    Infernal/Abyssal: Transforms Hellfire into something like Immolation Aura.

    Doomguard/Terrorguard: Perhaps a passive damage or other buff to Shadowbolt.


    Well there it is...kinda a silly idea I had but curious what people think of it...any questions...feel free to ask.

  2. #2
    Banned MechaCThun's Avatar
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    It's not a silly idea. This idea sounds like potential for something great. Allow me to take it a step further...

    I like the idea of having unique buffs to your warlock based on the combination of demons you have out. It would be cool if these buffs ranged from buffing your spells, to buffing stats, or even decreasing/removing cooldowns on abilities. Here is something I think would be cool:

    Demonology warlocks can now have 2 pets out at the same time; one melee and one ranged. This of course would require some changes to the current demons and PERHAPS adding new ones (which COME ON WOULD BE SO COOL).

    Based on these certain combinations, you will get the buffs you were referring to. Maybe like an imp (ranged) and voidwalker (melee) combo you would get a buff that would buff your Fire damage (Soul Fire) by X% as well as decrease damage taken (from voidwalker) by Y%

    ...or something

  3. #3
    Banned MechaCThun's Avatar
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    If Meta is removed, let us keep...

    The cosmetic effects that appear at 50% demonic fury and up. The demon horns, glowing hands, and at 100% demonic fury the whirling, purple aura that surrounds your character.

    Now I understand if warlocks are using that minor glyph that changes the visual of your Demon Form to just the caster with horns and wings. But because of that glyph you are not able to see the cosmetic visual(s) at 50% or more demonic fury.

    Honestly I don't mind losing Meta (although it will take a long time for me to get used to) but I don't wanna lose my inner demon-ness

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire masterdisaster's Avatar
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    These sound too passive and boring. I'd much rather they replace it with having to actively manage your pets instead of them passively buffing you.

  5. #5
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    Generally I think visual flavor is going to be the key. What you got listed in the OP is basically Wrath/Cata levels of pet behavior and it was hated as hell due to being boring - both visually and mechanically.

    I could see them giving us a talent to modify pet behavior. Turn Felhounds into a pack of Felstalkers that feed on magic casts near them. Turn Imp Swarm into our default damage spell. Or maybe a Talent that turns our one Imp Pet into multiple Imps that spam shit. Maybe the Felguard has equipment slots like a D3 follower and we can gear our Felguard in full epics.

    Hell, they might just give us an Artifact Pet for Demo (Skull of Gul'dan?). You upgrade it over the weapon stuff and it gets some cool abilites unlocked that you use in your rotation. However that wouldn't be visually statisfying. The key is going to be to fill that style of "multi-demon control" we all want. But without using the trashy pet AI. Replacing Shadowbolt with Imp Swarm that summons 3 imps that cast a few bolts of fire (3-5) at the enemy would be good first step towards that. During Bloodlust we could have 9-12 of the little fuckers out.

    Anything that makes it look like we control more demons, without us having to give up the current level of involvement in the gameplay - or us having to use their horrible UI and pet AI. I really don't want two pets to randomly despawn instead of one >_>


    But nobody ever said Blizzard understood how to design Warlocks. This is rework number 7 or 8 now. I stopped counting after 4. We might very well just end up with Beast Hunter 2.0.
    Last edited by mmoc72f1823250; 2015-09-07 at 04:20 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by FunctionalSTR View Post
    The cosmetic effects that appear at 50% demonic fury and up. The demon horns, glowing hands, and at 100% demonic fury the whirling, purple aura that surrounds your character.

    Now I understand if warlocks are using that minor glyph that changes the visual of your Demon Form to just the caster with horns and wings. But because of that glyph you are not able to see the cosmetic visual(s) at 50% or more demonic fury.

    Honestly I don't mind losing Meta (although it will take a long time for me to get used to) but I don't wanna lose my inner demon-ness

    I will be sad to lose meta but if demon hunters are actually live in the game there is no reason for warlocks to keep that any longer. I do like the wings/horns look though so maybe just add that as a permanent effect via lesser glyph. Since the graphics are already there be simple enough to do.

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire Kaldreno's Avatar
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    The cosmetic appearance of being a demon is reserved only for the demon hunter. You got to have your fun, but now the big boys are taking over.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaldreno View Post
    The cosmetic appearance of being a demon is reserved only for the demon hunter. You got to have your fun, but now the big boys are taking over.
    In b4 you eat crow because Locks utterly destroy Demon Hunters in PvP.


    Not to mention we actually get raid slots, because there's few of us and we're ranged :P

  9. #9
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaragoth View Post
    Generally I think visual flavor is going to be the key. What you got listed in the OP is basically Wrath/Cata levels of pet behavior and it was hated as hell due to being boring - both visually and mechanically.

    I could see them giving us a talent to modify pet behavior. Turn Felhounds into a pack of Felstalkers that feed on magic casts near them. Turn Imp Swarm into our default damage spell. Or maybe a Talent that turns our one Imp Pet into multiple Imps that spam shit. Maybe the Felguard has equipment slots like a D3 follower and we can gear our Felguard in full epics.

    Hell, they might just give us an Artifact Pet for Demo (Skull of Gul'dan?). You upgrade it over the weapon stuff and it gets some cool abilites unlocked that you use in your rotation. However that wouldn't be visually statisfying. The key is going to be to fill that style of "multi-demon control" we all want. But without using the trashy pet AI. Replacing Shadowbolt with Imp Swarm that summons 3 imps that cast a few bolts of fire (3-5) at the enemy would be good first step towards that. During Bloodlust we could have 9-12 of the little fuckers out.

    Anything that makes it look like we control more demons, without us having to give up the current level of involvement in the gameplay - or us having to use their horrible UI and pet AI. I really don't want two pets to randomly despawn instead of one >_>


    But nobody ever said Blizzard understood how to design Warlocks. This is rework number 7 or 8 now. I stopped counting after 4. We might very well just end up with Beast Hunter 2.0.
    Trouble I see with demons basically being all your dps is if they die...you've got no dps...I can't see them allowing you to spam and stack dozens of Imps...unless you cast, summon a imp, start cast for next, and imp does a bolt or two and despawns.

    It's just a idea I thought of hehe...I figured with how Warlocks use demons...nothing more using then using them to empower you!

    In the end I think I could die happy if they could make a functional system that uses two demons and be balanced.

  10. #10
    As pointed out time and again in the speculation thread (and it would be great if people could stick to that instead of making a new one for every idea), two pets won't work with the UI.

    Even if they change it we'd either have insane levels of micro to control both at the same time, or making one of them do the same as the first. The first option would be impossible to control to a human level as this is not an rts. The second option would make it purely visual fluff with no interaction at all.

    I had also suggested an idea where you cast pets as spells, similar to one above. Someone made a very good counterpoint to that idea from a raiding perspective; it's way too slow mechanically. Exactly like SoC is right now, there are too many ramp-ups.
    For example: cast imp swarm > imps spawn > imps' cast time > cast travel time. Try that on, say, a doomfire spirit on archimonde... The add would be dead before even your filler hit. Same problem with melee pets and walking time.

    Your pets giving you different buffs sounds nice on paper but results in cata's pet twisting... Which was almost universily hated for very good reasons.

    And all this assuming pet (guardian specifically) AI gets fixed and your guardians don't just stand there contemplating life for a couple of seconds before actually switching targets along with you.

    EDIT: Sorry if I sound salty, my phrasing can be crass in the morning. Definitely not intended.
    Last edited by Duckz0rs; 2015-09-09 at 07:07 AM.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Excellion View Post
    Trouble I see with demons basically being all your dps is if they die...you've got no dps...I can't see them allowing you to spam and stack dozens of Imps...unless you cast, summon a imp, start cast for next, and imp does a bolt or two and despawns.
    It'd work like Wild Imps do now. But as a baseline ability. You summon a few Imps, they cast their stuff. But because of the delay, you basically would be casting 3 Shadowbolts at the same time. So you got a lot of delayed, constant output. Good pressure in PvP, interesting Multi-target PvE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duckz0rs View Post
    I had also suggested an idea where you cast pets as spells, similar to one above. Someone made a very good counterpoint to that idea from a raiding perspective; it's way too slow mechanically. Exactly like SoC is right now, there are too many ramp-ups.
    For example: cast imp swarm > imps spawn > imps' cast time > cast travel time. Try that on, say, a doomfire spirit on archimonde... The add would be dead before even your filler hit. Same problem with melee pets and walking time.
    That is a good point, but assumes that your filler (which I imagine this Imp Swarm style spell as) would be your nuke on the Doomfire. You'd most likely use a heavier nuke on that target. Maybe some Instant Procs for Soulfire off the Imps. So you have them hit Archimonde, got stacked up procs and just unleash a volley of Soulfires at the Doomfire.

    Plenty of ways to make this work. Hardcasting in PvP also requires procs. So why not build it into the Spec, baseline, ya know.


    It's not impossible. It's just work. That Blizz might not wanna put in.

  12. #12
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaldreno View Post
    The cosmetic appearance of being a demon is reserved only for the demon hunter. You got to have your fun, but now the big boys are taking over.
    Aside from the fact that we don't know if we're losing an iconic ability and aesthetic of 7 years; why such glee at others' upset over the possibility?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaldreno View Post
    The cosmetic appearance of being a demon is reserved only for the demon hunter. You got to have your fun, but now the big boys are taking over.
    Is there a point to this post?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaragoth View Post
    That is a good point, but assumes that your filler (which I imagine this Imp Swarm style spell as) would be your nuke on the Doomfire. You'd most likely use a heavier nuke on that target. Maybe some Instant Procs for Soulfire off the Imps. So you have them hit Archimonde, got stacked up procs and just unleash a volley of Soulfires at the Doomfire.

    Plenty of ways to make this work. Hardcasting in PvP also requires procs. So why not build it into the Spec, baseline, ya know.


    It's not impossible. It's just work. That Blizz might not wanna put in.
    I imagine if you want to cast stuff through your demons, the same goes for big nukes going through your demons, so under that assumption my statement would still stand. Your rebut also assumes your imps are up in the first place, would they be permanent in your suggested idea or is it assuming perfect management? If not, having to recast them and then casting the big nuke through them would pose the same issue as before. Trying to get a solid handle on how your idea would work

    Personally I'd never prefer a designer to assume the player plays perfectly. Playing perfectly is an edge-case in game design, you want to leave some room to breathe, but not too much (the whole easy to learn difficult to master thing).

    I took the filler as an example for precisely the proc reason; what if you don't have one up due to mismanagement/bad RNG? You want to be able to do something to an add even if you mismanage or RNG is not in your favor. This playstyle would leave you with no options except keep training the boss.

    From a PvE standpoint it wouldn't make multi-target more interesting, only more frustrating. You can't control which targets Guardians attack, so you'd have to settle for praying that they actually attack the target you want them to attack. You could have a spell which marks the target your guardians have to attack, but do you have one mark that controls all of them? Then you'll be inefficient because your Melee pets have to walk there. A mark per pet-type could work, but depending on the amount of different pets up it could be a micro-management hell.

    If anything this would make Demo a lot more complex, something they according to the interview want to step away from.

    I can't say anything meaningful on the PvP spectrum of this discussion unfortunately, so everything stated is from a raiding perspective. And by no means mythic at that.

    (I should add that I'm on the I want to control armies of demons train, but I don't see it working realistically without huge overhauls to the current systems implemented in-game)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by striderZA View Post
    Is there a point to this post?
    Flamebait I'd imagine...

  16. #16
    What about this:

    *Demonology Warlocks gain the ability to summon two demons.

    -Main Demon(Enslaved Minion): Works pretty much the same as the Felguard With increased damage (who uses anything else,ha?)

    -Secondary Demon(Summoned Minion): Using a spell you get to summon a second demon with a short cast time ~2sec. The Secondary Demon
    grants a temporary buff to a certain spell/mechanic while active and lasts 15 seconds with lower damage.


    *Main Demons are the main source of damage a long with the demonologist's spells(some of which buff the main demon even further)
    *Secondary Demons are a much lower source of damage (~8% over the span of a fight), they buff the main demon while summoned and grant the caster an added utility or a short term buff/variation to spell/mechanic.(you can't summon the main demon as a secondary)



    For Example:


    Main Demon = Felguard : Same as current model but contributes to a much higher damage value from the overall damage.

    Secondary Demon = Imp : Grants the felguard fiery weapon, making his basic attacks deal fire damage instead and Felstorm ignites targets, dealing x fire damage/sec. | Grants the caster a Molten Core proc with damage bonus on the next soul fire when summoned.

    Voidwalker: Grants the felguard void shield absorbing x damage and exploding for x shadow damage every 3 seconds. Felstorm pulls the targets towards the felguard. | Grants increased shadow damage, and reduced threat and damage taken for the caster.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckz0rs View Post
    Flamebait I'd imagine...
    Throw more firewood at it?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by FunctionalSTR View Post
    The cosmetic effects that appear at 50% demonic fury and up. The demon horns, glowing hands, and at 100% demonic fury the whirling, purple aura that surrounds your character.

    Now I understand if warlocks are using that minor glyph that changes the visual of your Demon Form to just the caster with horns and wings. But because of that glyph you are not able to see the cosmetic visual(s) at 50% or more demonic fury.

    Honestly I don't mind losing Meta (although it will take a long time for me to get used to) but I don't wanna lose my inner demon-ness
    Good luck with having visuals based on Demonic Fury amounts when your class no longer has Demonic Fury as a resource
    Last edited by Bryntrollian; 2015-09-09 at 02:22 PM.

  19. #19
    I was under the impression that Demo lock resource was being reworked, and that Demonic Fury was to become the Demon Hunter resource.

    So i highly doubt any of this will be relevant in the coming changes.
    There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Nerd View Post
    Throw more firewood at it?
    Nah, gasoline, for that nice smell of napalm in the morning!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    Good luck with having visuals based on Demonic Fury amounts when your class no longer has Demonic Fury as a resource
    Quote Originally Posted by Powell View Post
    I was under the impression that Demo lock resource was being reworked, and that Demonic Fury was to become the Demon Hunter resource.

    So i highly doubt any of this will be relevant in the coming changes.
    Demon Hunters get Fury as a resource, not Demonic Fury

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