PvP Proving Grounds

[Deleted]

Proving Grounds for PvP- gating rndBGs behind them- could be the formula to enable more players an enjoyable PvP experience.
My concept would divide random BGs into 2 brackets. The Kindergarden and Regular. The bracket I called the Kindergarden is the Proving Grounds portion. Once reached lvl110, players queuing for BGs will be sorted into the Kindergarden bracket (the name needs some work, I know).
Upon entering a BG for the first time, they will be given a brief explanation of it's objectives. That's something that should've been offered to beginners long ago already and thus not really part of the Proving Grounds thing but it'd help nevertheless.
Next "kindergardeners" would be given quests to fulfill on the Battlegrounds. Capture a base/escort or capture a flag/defend a base/plant a bomb/mount a vehicle and damage a gate. Those quest could be started automatically once you join a BG or they could be offered by NPCs in a designated location, like the Temple of the White Tiger for traditional Proving Grounds.
The quests themselves would require multiples. E.g. capture or escort 15 flags, the equivalent of roughly 10 BGs(?).
Once all quests are completed, the player has proven that he/she understands the objectives and is capable of pursuing them. He/she HAS OFFICIALLY GRADUATED KINDERGARDEN! WOOHOO!!! ... And is now ready to join the regular bracket.
This is merely a rough draft, made to be molded by new ideas and discussion. For example, quest objectives could be refined and better tailored to the individual BGs, there could be more ranks (as in bronze, silver& gold), an incentive to even get to the regular BGs (more PvP xp maybe, for the new PvP reward tracks?) and so on...

I'm just a guy frustrated by the amount of players disregarding any objectives. This game surely would be more pleasant if those amongst them that are simply unknowing would be tought the basics (and then there are bots but that's another story).

[InfernalDark]

Some kind of "proving ground" system would be great yea.

[Rabka Uhalla]

TBH that sounds brilliant, or at the very least, Blizz needs to make objectives much, MUCH more valuable than farming kills, so people will do that instead. I'd even be all for removing honor gained from kills unless it's at an objective, IE at a node, or around an FC or EFC.

[ComputerNerd]

Artificial measures which have proven to be utterly flawed in PvE, and so will not work in PvP either.
The disregarding of objectives isn't a "skill" problem.
The reward mechanism is a large part of it, in that you get honor still when doing something completely irrelevant like ganking.
Personally I would rather honor is earned only through relevant proximity to objectives, so random ganking isn't rewarding.
Like the honorable defender buff, where instead of it boosting honor - it means you actually get some, instead of none.
Plus remove the rewards for losing/winning, make it objective based only.
Either your team gains objectives, or you get nothing.
Any significant number not contributing, and therefore hurting their teams experience can prevent any worthwhile rewards.
It soon wouldn't be appealing to afk'ers or players who want to screw around.

[Rabka Uhalla]

Artificial measures which have proven to be utterly flawed in PvE, and so will not work in PvP either.
The disregarding of objectives isn't a "skill" problem.
The reward mechanism is a large part of it, in that you get honor still when doing something completely irrelevant like ganking.
Personally I would rather honor is earned only through relevant proximity to objectives, so random ganking isn't rewarding.
Like the honorable defender buff, where instead of it boosting honor - it means you actually get some, instead of none.
Plus remove the rewards for losing/winning, make it objective based only.
Either your team gains objectives, or you get nothing.
Any significant number not contributing, and therefore hurting their teams experience can prevent any worthwhile rewards.
It soon wouldn't be appealing to afk'ers or players who want to screw around.

That works too.

[Deleted]

Artificial measures which have proven to be utterly flawed in PvE, and so will not work in PvP either.
The disregarding of objectives isn't a "skill" problem.
The reward mechanism is a large part of it, in that you get honor still when doing something completely irrelevant like ganking.
Personally I would rather honor is earned only through relevant proximity to objectives, so random ganking isn't rewarding.
Like the honorable defender buff, where instead of it boosting honor - it means you actually get some, instead of none.
Plus remove the rewards for losing/winning, make it objective based only.
Either your team gains objectives, or you get nothing.
Any significant number not contributing, and therefore hurting their teams experience can prevent any worthwhile rewards.
It soon wouldn't be appealing to afk'ers or players who want to screw around.

That's true. Since Honor will cease to exist the way we know it, we might just see some changes to the reward mechanisms. It is PvP Xp we gain now if I'm not mistaken. If we could redistribute incentives... Although that might require lots of fine-tuning to feel right. By that I mean; sometimes it is necessary to zerg, then there's the risk of people abusing the system by capping/decapping/capping, ...
Nothing that can't be fixed though.
I'd argue that there should still be some sort of system to ease noobs into PvP. Not necessarily as drastic as my proposal but some crutch because right now, getting into PvP isn't exactly beginner-friendly.

[Deleted]

Honestly, I don't think it's the genuine noobs who are the problem, since at that point they're probably more interested in figuring out the rules than breaking them. It's more likely to be veterans who, for whatever reason (bored, jaded, frustrated with the team, afk-ers, or just jerks in general), find screwing around more fulfilling than focusing on objectives. From this point of view, introducing better incentives for pursuing objectives might be more productive.

As far as the noobs go, producing a few official video guides explaining rules and objectives and making them very easy to find (launcher links, for example) would probably be much easier and cheaper and just as instructional. It's not that hard to understand how to cap or recap a flag, man a turret, or drive a vehicle very similar to those encountered while questing. Running a flag is more difficult, so I'd rather they were shown how to assist the FC and healers (although telling them that certain spells make you drop the flag would be useful).

I think that the most problematic part is handling the PvP itself, and that's where role-specific PvP Proving Grounds would be very helpful. I confess that since I've played very little for the past 3 years or so, I would welcome arena-style 3v3 and 5v5 scenarios against some slightly overtuned AI executing a variety of strategies, just so I could learn how to react to spells which I don't even recognize anymore in a less frustrating environment where I can't drag others down. If bots can play somewhat convincingly nowadays, I imagine Blizzard could program some friendly AI who don't do incredibly stupid things all the time, as well as enemy AI who don't do the same thing over and over (routines could be based on strategies used by real teams).

Currently, PvE PGs do force people to put interrupts on their bar and kite a bit, but they exclude a whole range of CCs and the healer and DPS ones don't require you to move out of fire. As a healer, you mostly play whack-a-mole while hitting the occasional interrupt or stun, but you don't CC, use offensive dispels, avoid interrupts, move out of any AoEs, LoS spells, kite sticky melee, etc. (even though you actually need to do a number of these things even in PvE).

Aside from forcing people to use a variety of class abilities (tutorials focused on types of abilities, like CCs, slows, dispels, defensive CDs, etc. would be helpful), these scenarios should also teach a few basic strategies: peeling off team mates, targeting enemy healers and CC-ers, and pillar humping and LoS awareness would be my top ones.

Just my two cents, but I think a lot of people would be relieved if they could learn the ropes in a low-pressure environment where they can't be berated or punished.

[Philomene]

TBH that sounds brilliant, or at the very least, Blizz needs to make objectives much, MUCH more valuable than farming kills, so people will do that instead. I'd even be all for removing honor gained from kills unless it's at an objective, IE at a node, or around an FC or EFC.

People farming kills don't care about rewards they just want to kill people so it won't fix anything, I've been capping flags'n'carts for years now and I'm quite bored of it so I mainly focus on killing other players. If it can help to cap flags or defend that's okay but I don't care losing or winning as long as I can crush hordies in fight - not a fan of GY farming and I hate 40-man AV/IoC premades.

And for people that think that it's because of this kind of behaviour that they lose, I have a quite decent W/L ratio, both as healer or damage, people should open their mind and realize that 10 people going for the flag at WSG while letting the enemy control the middle and intercept everything isn't a good strategy.

[ItachiZaku]

Sometimes I queue for BGs just for the kills, i don't care for objectives. My objective is to kill. When I'm on my toons that are grinding for pieces of the Khan title, they care.

[Orangetai420]

I would support it.

Ideally, players would be intelligent enough to figure this out with some clever conveyance on Blizz's part, but we all know that the player-base doesn't have the best track record in this regard.

I never though battleground objectives were all that complicated but a mandatory tutorial wouldn't be out of place as long as I don't have to do it on all my alts.