Need help designing a third Spec :)

[Concequence]

Remember how DKs in War3 were Unholy only? Or that there was no such thing as a Balance druid, Cat druid, Tree druid... Or how hunters were super short range and threw axes? Or, oh, Paladins were only ret?

To be honest I think a lot of classes could use "spec" culling. ... We don't need two dps specs that force us to respec every other tier ... just to be "optimal" ... DK could have just Blood + Unholy ... Warlock could have just Demo + Destro ... they could cut a spec for everyone. make classes have one option for each role. Then you dont need to worry about that third spec, which you dont currently have gear for, and dont ever use, that is suddenly top dps... and less annoying to play this tier. But then mid tier... they change everything because a particular trinket make the first spec better along with the changes. Or 3/4 through the tier some guy finds a borderline exploit which Blizz says is clever game mechanics which makes the second spec better again. Its annoying.

[Kuze]

Remember how DKs in War3 were Unholy only? Or that there was no such thing as a Balance druid, Cat druid, Tree druid... Or how hunters were super short range and threw axes? Or, oh, Paladins were only ret?

Things change, quit being a bitch and stop giving blizzard an excuse to half-ass the class. Throw Demon Hunters a ranged caster DPS spec with an emphasis on splash ('cleave') damage.

Remember how the game we play is World of Warcraft and NOT Warcraft 3? Maybe you should go play WC3 and the rest of us will keep playing WoW

[Kithelle]

I just can't see them designing a good ranged spec without taking away from Warlocks to be honest.

[Gemini Soul]

I just can't see them designing a good ranged spec without taking away from Warlocks to be honest.

^^^^

To those who quote Diablo for it...they have hunters in game already who use bows/guns and one of those specs is going being turned back into a mdps spec

Caster wise they would just be warlocks in leather and warglaives.


I'm SO GLAD they are not giving them 2 dps specs!

[Orloth]

To be honest I think a lot of classes could use "spec" culling. ... We don't need two dps specs that force us to respec every other tier ... just to be "optimal" ... DK could have just Blood + Unholy ... Warlock could have just Demo + Destro ... they could cut a spec for everyone. make classes have one option for each role. Then you dont need to worry about that third spec, which you dont currently have gear for, and dont ever use, that is suddenly top dps... and less annoying to play this tier. But then mid tier... they change everything because a particular trinket make the first spec better along with the changes. Or 3/4 through the tier some guy finds a borderline exploit which Blizz says is clever game mechanics which makes the second spec better again. Its annoying.

I'm pretty sure that if they could go back in time, this is exactly what they'd do. As things are, though, the amount of uproar and outrage over major spec changes kind of ties their hands on it. Were you around when the DK specs got changed from Blood, Frost, and Unholy DPS, and Blood, Frost, and Unholy tank to Blood tank, Frost DPS, Unholy DPS? Oh god, the rage. The gnashing of teeth and the the banging of keyboards on the forums, it was an aweful racket. Even the Warlock revamp, which kept the major themes in play but almost completely changed the mechanics of the class, warranted just as many condemnations as approbations. I don't want to even think how many players would be butthurt because "their" spec was removed/changed, if Blizz were to do this.

Granted, I think it's an excellent idea and should definately happen, but the noise.... the noise.... I don't think it /will/ happen.

[Super Kami Dende]

"I'm going to transform into a hulking Demon!!! and attack my enemies from afar.."

Nah Ranged doesn't fit the fantasy of WoW DH.

[Gemini Soul]

Build them around having demonic abilities increase their corruption, which decreases their effectiveness as it stacks. Balance using high damage high corruption abilities with keeping corruption low. Meta is a cd that makes corruption good because you've turned into a demon.

I think it'd be interesting to have negative resource, where you get less effective the more of it you have. Then have a low damage ability that helps clear it and have it gradually reduce over time. It would serve similar to arcane's mastery for play style and fit the class theme.

As far as abilities, here's my cut at it:

Dot: Demonic occupation - the demon turns the target's own cells against itself to do damage over 30 secs. Increases demonic corruption by x.
Small filler spell: Expel corruption. 1.5 second cast does small amount of damage. Reduces corruption by x.
Big hitting spell: Eye beam... use the orbs that are in place of eyes to fire a large burst of energy at the enemy target. 1.5 sec cast. Increases corruption by large amount.

Now for a twist, metamorphosis is a cd with increased damage where the effect of your corruption is reversed - when you're a demon, having corruption is good. So the bar literally inverts itself - being 100% corrupted turns into being 100% uncorrupted with the "curse of flesh" or whatever. Stay in this form for 30 secs. Abilities increase your "curse of flesh", then the bar again inverts itself when you go back into main form.

What this means is outside your cd you're trying to keep corruption low, then you purposely stack it up and pop meta. In meta you have to decide how to effectively use those abilities and end up 100% corrupted with the curse of flesh for when you get back out. I haven't come up with any meta abilities yet - what about your big one is you leap in like illidan did in BT then leap back, then you have something like meteor that lands on the target?

There would obviously be a lot more around that (aoe abilities for example) but that's how I'd make it work at the core. The corruption thing fits the lore of the class - these guys aren't demons but they are using demonic abilities and using them has a negative impact on the caster. And it's different from how warlocks work which is good. Similar to arcane mages mastery but whatever.

I like the idea of meta being a time where you are going balls out and and just maxing out your corruption... think it's fun to have a playstyle where you alternate periods of restraint with periods of balls to the wall big hits.

I wouldn't even bother with mana as a primary resource - who cares? It's trivial for most classes now anyway. Just have the corruption thing and that's it.

Sounds like a cheap knock off of Arcane Mages mastery, IE dmg they do based on mana they have. A pain to balance, just no.

[Varlak]

Actualy a caster using rage like resource would be different from the rest.

[Orloth]

Actualy a caster using rage like resource would be different from the rest.

You mean like focus for hunters?

[Varlak]

You mean like focus for hunters?

Isnt focus more like rogue energy ?

Havent played a hunter for years so I might by wrong.

[Orloth]

It regens some naturally, and some from abilities. It is actually pretty similar to rage and (what I understand of) fury. Rage regens from autoattacks and some abilities, and fury regens from some abilities.

[Lamortykins]

Blizzard should not bend over backwards and ravage the history of a class just to cater to a few whiners. Focusing on 1 dps spec will result in much better quality.

[Gemini Soul]

Blizzard should not bend over backwards and ravage the history of a class just to cater to a few whiners. Focusing on 1 dps spec will result in much better quality.

Because i can't like or up vote your post, i get to do this instead...

[The Madgod]

Remember how DKs in War3 were Unholy only? Or that there was no such thing as a Balance druid, Cat druid, Tree druid... Or how hunters were super short range and threw axes? Or, oh, Paladins were only ret?

Things change, quit being a bitch and stop giving blizzard an excuse to half-ass the class. Throw Demon Hunters a ranged caster DPS spec with an emphasis on splash ('cleave') damage.

DK specs were born from lich and nathrezim toolkits, as they were all Scourge members at some point. Balance druid was a thing. Keeper of the Grove / alpha's Archdruid was very much like them, and did have a boomkin form. Cat druid is plausible because of bear druids, resto druid comes from the healing capabilities of the Keeper of the Grove, hunters are a standard fantasy trope born from many different aspects of lore, not simply the War3 beastmaster. Paladins were actually more holy / prot than ret, but had some aspects of such via Holy Light hurting undead. And are also again a standard fantasy trope.

Overall though a demon hunter with a ranged caster DPS spec would largely just be a 4th warlock spec. Too much of a fantasy clash. Blizzard was smart to not do it. Oh, also, you're confusing "change" with "iterate upon" for pretty much all of the things mentioned above... except demon hunters. Their fantasy has always been a melee class with magic.

1) What is the essence of a Demon Hunter. It's core element. What defines it.
2) What is your position regarding a ranged dps spec ? A second melee dps spec ? (Keep it mind this is Warcraft, not Diablo).
3) What do you think about the Warrior "Gladiator spec/talent" ?
4) Do you believe lore can be created as support for gameplay elements ? Or should Gameplay be created out of pre existing lore ? (Not talking about retcon, here)

1) Demon hunters are melee combat experts who wield fel magics to augment themselves in battle against demons. While they know magic, they don't solely rely on it in combat. As a big example: Illidan. Does cast spells, but spends most of his time hitting you in the face.

2) A second melee spec would be more lore appropriate, but I'm going to be alright with just having the one. More focus on that means it will be more likely that it is of higher quality and will be overall better for game balance (less variables to deal with).

3) Glad spec is pretty awesome. I like the fantasy of it and that it's still fairly effective.

4) Lore CAN be created to support gameplay elements, but I think the best design process, especially for already existing worlds, is to design form the lore; from the fantasy of the thing you want to design. You can flesh them out from there, adding "new" stuff, but only if it doesn't clash with the initial design and motifs of the fantasy.

[Nurvus]

With the way Talents are organized nowadays, any difference in the rotation you can come up with for a second Demon Hunter spec is better added as a rotation-defining Talent.

As for a ranged spec, it would be too similar to Warlock.

I would rather have Blizzard add a 4th collumn in Talents to expand your options, rather than diluting the class concept into an additional spec.

[Sanguiris]

Hello !

I'm currently in the process of creating a full Design Document for a ranged dps DH spec. The spec would be supported by actual Lore, on either Illidan, Illidari and the Warcraft Demon Hunter mythos.

I'm an actual game designer & very passionate about the Warcraft Lore. So I'd pay special attention to not "water down the identity of the class", while making sure the gameplay of this new spec remains fun and engaging.
Of course, once the Documen is finished, I'll gladly share it with the MMOC Community.

For now, i'm in need of ideas, so...

Could you give me your opinion on :

1) What is the essence of a Demon Hunter. It's core element. What defines it.
2) What is your position regarding a ranged dps spec ? A second melee dps spec ? (Keep it mind this is Warcraft, not Diablo).
3) What do you think about the Warrior "Gladiator spec/talent" ?
4) Do you believe lore can be created as support for gameplay elements ? Or should Gameplay be created out of pre existing lore ? (Not talking about retcon, here).

Anyway, any ideas are appreciated. Thank you !

1- Core element would be fast and swift and using demon's power against the legion.
2- Wouldn't want a full range spec maybe half range half melee at best
3- It was viable until people complained now you're better off playing prot without using glad talent
4- It can go both ways as long as it's credible

[Nurvus]

The only way I could imagine a ranged spec for Demon Hunters, is inspired in Illidan's air phase: Warglaives on the ground like Totems, spirits emerging from the Warglaives (Flames of <insert demon>), and mechanics that involve combined attacks with said spirits.

This might, however, be difficult to properly differentiate from Warlock gameplay, and end up feeling like a WoD Demonology rip-off.

[Orloth]

With the way Talents are organized nowadays, any difference in the rotation you can come up with for a second Demon Hunter spec is better added as a rotation-defining Talent.

As for a ranged spec, it would be too similar to Warlock.

I would rather have Blizzard add a 4th collumn in Talents to expand your options, rather than diluting the class concept into an additional spec.

I agree. My hope is that we end up a lot like shadow priests, where there is a lot of customization in the talents for both our specs for different situations. Keeps the spec feeling fresh.

[Lamortykins]

I agree. My hope is that we end up a lot like shadow priests, where there is a lot of customization in the talents for both our specs for different situations. Keeps the spec feeling fresh.

You don't want to end up like Shadow Priests...for the first few months we had 1 viable level 100 talent. From Blackrock Foundry onward, any Shadow Priest that wanted to be decent had to carry two sets of gear and change their entire talent setup and rotation based on the fight.

[Orloth]

You don't want to end up like Shadow Priests...for the first few months we had 1 viable level 100 talent. From Blackrock Foundry onward, any Shadow Priest that wanted to be decent had to carry two sets of gear and change their entire talent setup and rotation based on the fight.

Yeah, I might be having Grass-is-Greener-on-the-Other-Side eyes about that, primarily playing a Demolock and not having a max level priest. But then, I'm also not in a position where I have to take the best option always. I like picking one setup that is decently good for the whole tier, and not changing things around too often. Being able to change the rotation every now and then just because I feel like it (even if it's not optimal) sounds like a good thing from here.