Is it murder when somone kills a fetus that may have been legally aborted?

[the game]

I don't think anyone has posted an actual law saying it is yet. I'm sure you'll be charged with something, because you can't just kill a fetus against the mother's wishes. A Doctor can't do that, so the general public can't either.

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Don't take it as negative, it wasn't meant to be. I'm Pro Choice.

If the logic behind abortion is that the fetus isn't alive yet so it's ok then it's impossible for another person to murder that fetus. Since the fetus isn't alive yet.

[Amaterasu65]

Legally, a fetus is not a person, so we can not talk about murder.

The fetus is a potential person though. Most penal codes, if not all, in civilized nations contain different provisions on crimes against fetus and different on crimes against a person.

One of the most dominant theories concerning the fetus' consideration as a person so that the criminal provisions for murder can be used says that a fetus is a baby either:

1)when a part of the baby is on the outside world (during childbirth, the head usually goes out first but in any case, even if the little toe appears on the outside world, it's a human now). More dominant than the next one.

2)when the childbirth pains start and the "waters broke". These are the signals that the fetus is ready to leave its mother's womb, so it is a person. Less dominant, because of cases that the aches start in X time and the childbirth is finished many hours later or even a day after.

So, no. The one who destroys a fetus is not commiting a murder from a legal standpoint. But there are serious penalties for these crimes.

PS: No ideological, religious standpoints made and are not to be taken into account by anyone. The legal system handles these issues, and no matter what anyone believes, the law prevails. /thread

PS #2: Moi is a law student, but the law theories or jurisprudence may be different in other nations, or state in the case of the US. I think most European nations adopt these theories.

[Deleted]

If the logic behind abortion is that the fetus isn't alive yet so it's ok then it's impossible for another person to murder that fetus. Since the fetus isn't alive yet.

exactly

the entire justification for abortion is that the fetus is not a human being, not alive, has no soul/consciousness etc that's why it can't be murder

..unless it's done against the woman's will? then the fetus suddenly becomes a human being, alive, with a soul/conscioussness?

magic.

[the game]

Again, I've said I don't know and I don't think anyone has posted an actual law yet. You will be charged with something, because even Doctors can't abort a fetus without consent from the mother. They would be charged if they did (with what, idk), so if anyone in the general public did the same, they'd also be charged.

Sounds like a lot of double standards up in here.

[Deleted]

I don't think anyone's saying that it shouldn't be a criminal offense. I've repeatedly said it's assault if anything. But it just can't be murder.

[Amaterasu65]

I don't think anyone's saying that it shouldn't be a criminal offense. I've repeatedly said it's assault if anything. But it just can't be murder.

Just see what I wrote above.
#bla_filling_chars_to_post

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

It's more like destruction of property...it's a really murky topic.

Abortion comes down to freedom, choice, and sovereignty.

Sane people who believe in freedom and choice know that the fetus is strictly property of the mother, and that she is free to do as she pleases with her body.

Insane people don't believe in freedom, are slaves, and seek to project their bondage to others, and wrongfuly assume they have dominion over women just because they harbor another person's DNA.
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We can fight and argue all day about what's right, wrong, and moral as long as you understand that freedom, safety, and responsibility all exist independently from one another.

[satimy]

What is with all the abortion shit on here lately. No, it's not murder it's a fetus.

So if I get a girl pregnant and she wants to have the kid and I don't... I can just punch her in the stomach until the fetus dies and just get in trouble for assaulting the woman?

[Thresh1]

I don't think it is considered murder by the law.

The laws do vary by state to state. For example, in Arizona, "The law specifies that the defendant shall not be released until the completion of 35 years if the murdered person was under 15 years of age or was an unborn child. The law states that for the purposes of punishment, an unborn child shall be treated like a minor under 12 years of age."

California, "Cal. Penal Code § 187 (a) defines murder as the unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought."

"Idaho Code § 18-4001, § 18-4006 and § 18-4016 (2002) declare that murder includes the unlawful killing of a human embryo or fetus under certain conditions. The law provides that manslaughter includes the unlawful killing of a human embryo or fetus without malice. The law defines "embryo" or "fetus" as any human in utero. These laws do not apply to conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf, has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law, or to any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her embryo or fetus."

So, yes it is murder or punished like a murder would be in some states.

Taken from National Conference of State Legislatures website.

[Endus]

I'm going to lock this, since we already have one thread on abortion going, and we don't need additional threads for every possible variation of the topic.