I think it's time we gave Stellar Flare a second chance.

[lappee]

I'd say that alone constitutes an issue already. What use is an "ok" talent that can never actually be taken advantage of?

Never said that theres no issue, the issue just lies with the encounter design rather than talent design.

Besides, there's also the other tier of talents where we don't really have a choice either. Any serious owl has been running around with the exact same DPS talents for pretty much all of WoD.

From PvE perspective yeah, Treants have always been a lackluster damage wise and SotF is just what it is.

[theburned]

Never said that theres no issue, the issue just lies with the encounter design rather than talent design.


From PvE perspective yeah, Treants have always been a lackluster damage wise and SotF is just what it is.

Again, I really don't agree that you can fix the issue by making encounters different, when you can have an expansion worth of encounters (30 bosses in this case) and it is not superior on any of them, it's barely on par on 1 or 2 fights, that sounds like a flaw in talent design to me at least.

Well I found SotF very usable on fights where you can't reliably use Inc, Blackhand for me at least, as it inc lined up with 5th balcony when we were using BL, spending almost 10 seconds of CA without getting any gain from incarnation really wasn't worth it. But wheter or not it's your standard choice on any fight or not I like to have the utility to be able to use a non-cd talent when the cd talent doesn't lineup well.

Personally I havent dpsed that much in this tier to comment any bosses I would prefer it on, but doesn't seem like a lot of valuable choices, but perhaps a few where it would be close.

as for FoN I really don't know what this talent needs, but to me it seems like blizz decided to keep it a pvp talent only for the root.

[Cyous]

On the topic of FON, I really do think pets and minions should snapshot (temporary only). It really would give more flavor to many talents and rotations if they had to watch for buffs. In addition, it's not exactly going to lead to massive DPS increases, but it will separate better players from the pack.

[lappee]

Again, I really don't agree that you can fix the issue by making encounters different, when you can have an expansion worth of encounters (30 bosses in this case) and it is not superior on any of them, it's barely on par on 1 or 2 fights, that sounds like a flaw in talent design to me at least.

We can completely ignore all of HFC due to Class trinket.

In Highmaul Mythic theres 6 bosses out of 7 where you could've used either Stellar Flare or BoP over Euphoria for parsing purposes (all except Butcher)
In BRF Mythic theres 8 bosses out of 10 where either BoP or Stellar Flare could've been used for parsing (all except Gruul and Blackhand (and blackhand is a bit edgy for the matter))

So no, I wouldnt say its a talent desing problem rather than encounter one. Theres so big emphasis on ST requirements that max out multidotting isnt worth it when talent choises hurt your ST dps (unless you get big burst AoE from it)

Well I found SotF very usable on fights where you can't reliably use Inc, Blackhand for me at least, as it inc lined up with 5th balcony when we were using BL, spending almost 10 seconds of CA without getting any gain from incarnation really wasn't worth it. But wheter or not it's your standard choice on any fight or not I like to have the utility to be able to use a non-cd talent when the cd talent doesn't lineup well.

I found Incarnation still to be better even if I never used it in P2. The dps requirements on P1 and P3 demanded having it available.

[huth]

So no, I wouldnt say its a talent desing problem rather than encounter one. Theres so big emphasis on ST requirements that max out multidotting isnt worth it when talent choises hurt your ST dps (unless you get big burst AoE from it)

Still leaves us with another talent tier with serious issues. Besides, i don't think it's a good idea to have a tier with both MT and ST dps choices. Would probably be better if they re-tooled the two tiers to have one with only ST and the other only MT options.

[iddqd]

Instant cast, AOE application, something like that.

I would love to use this talent more often, just because the animation is that great!

[theburned]

We can completely ignore all of HFC due to Class trinket.

ok, I'm a bit curious about this, is it because of what point of the eclipse bar you'd want to cast starsurge, that makes BoP and stellar flare subpar?

Been playing a little with the thought of BoP for xhul'horac, it most likely comes down to my skill as a boomie on that fight, but I find huge downtime everytime I get fel surge, or have to dodge voidsteps, aswell as vortex, typhoon and solar beam, all these adding up to quite a few seconds where I am doing absolutley no damage at all apart from starfall/FD's/MF+SF
on top of some movement during blackholes.

I see the downside in last phase that burst damage will be considerably less. (I doubt this will be a huge issue, considering the gear we have and the expectations coming from me being resto MS.)
So in the end I feel the biggest contributor here would be the eclipse cycle, would it leave too little control so that I lose a lot of either of the dot uptimes, like being in solar eclipse for the imps being very important. and getting up moonfire on voidfiends.

[huth]

ok, I'm a bit curious about this, is it because of what point of the eclipse bar you'd want to cast starsurge, that makes BoP and stellar flare subpar?

It's that you use all charges on Starsurge and have no reason to cast Starfall.

Honestly, i don't like the trinket much. It removes decisions from gameplay, rather than adding or being neutral like some of the others.

[lappee]

ok, I'm a bit curious about this, is it because of what point of the eclipse bar you'd want to cast starsurge, that makes BoP and stellar flare subpar?

Its because of the synergy Euphoria and class trinket have.

In xhul'horac you could use BoP if you wanted but I doubt it'd be better. It for sure isnt better for me with our kill times (and they're minute longer than the fastest kills out there).
Imps just die too fast for proper dotting, with Euphoria you can time it (or just be lucky) so that imps spawn ~~every time you need to refresh sunfire.
Without Euphoria you'll likely run into scenario where you just cant get full potential out of SS charges (Starfall drops but you still have empowerments), it happens with Euphoria already.
Also with Euphoria you're more likely to get better dot refreshes when you're having to move, thanks to faster cycle.

[theburned]

Its because of the synergy Euphoria and class trinket have.

In xhul'horac you could use BoP if you wanted but I doubt it'd be better. It for sure isnt better for me with our kill times (and they're minute longer than the fastest kills out there).
Imps just die too fast for proper dotting, with Euphoria you can time it (or just be lucky) so that imps spawn ~~every time you need to refresh sunfire.
Without Euphoria you'll likely run into scenario where you just cant get full potential out of SS charges (Starfall drops but you still have empowerments), it happens with Euphoria already.
Also with Euphoria you're more likely to get better dot refreshes when you're having to move, thanks to faster cycle.

Oh, thanks overlooked that part with empowerments, on the other side I considered the fact that with longer cast times you will take longer before you want to refresh the empowerments with BoP thus you will not have as much overlap with the starfalls during CA, and other moments where you would consider using starsurges to refresh empowerments.

well I am expecting something like a 5 min kill, and the voidfiends that spawn outside of melee seem to have enough uptime for dots to be worth casting. Also if adds die quickly enough eitherway wouldn't that mean that 3 target cleave would be more important than getting off sunfire at all imps at some times.

Thanks for the input, I will try giving it a shot, I suppose the dotting will be the deciding factor.

[lappee]

Oh, thanks overlooked that part with empowerments, on the other side I considered the fact that with longer cast times you will take longer before you want to refresh the empowerments with BoP thus you will not have as much overlap with the starfalls during CA, and other moments where you would consider using starsurges to refresh empowerments.

well I am expecting something like a 5 min kill, and the voidfiends that spawn outside of melee seem to have enough uptime for dots to be worth casting. Also if adds die quickly enough eitherway wouldn't that mean that 3 target cleave would be more important than getting off sunfire at all imps at some times.

Thanks for the input, I will try giving it a shot, I suppose the dotting will be the deciding factor.

Overlappin (as in casting SS for empowerments) only occurs during CA and when you back to back Shooting Stars procs, otherwise you'll be casting one SS every 10 seconds on average.
With BoP you'd potentially have more overlaps with empowerments because you cant get rid of them quickly enough when theres movement involved.

Voidfiends are potential DoT targets, but with BoP you'd most likely dot them with only Sunfire or Moonfire depending on which eclipse you're in. By the time you get to the other its already too late to dot them.
3 target multidot only lasts for so long in the fight. If all 3 targets were up for the entire fight then we'd use BoP by default, but as the uptime for all 3 to be up is only around 35% its not as strong as it sounds.