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  1. #1

    ShadowCraft Feedback

    Hey for those of you who don't know I'm the current ShadowCraft engine maintainer and since the expansion is winding down I'd like to get some feedback from folks who use ShadowCraft about how we can improve it in Legion. I'm not promising that anything in this thread will happen, just trying to get views from the community. Below are some questions that I am particularly interested in but feel free to ignore them if you have other thoughts.

    Thank you for your input.

    1) How often do you use ShadowCraft? What questions do you consult ShadowCraft to answer?

    2) On a scale of 1-10(max) how much do you trust results from ShadowCraft?

    3) What would improve your trust in ShadowCraft?

    4) What additional features would like to see in ShadowCraft?
    Last edited by fierydemise; 2015-10-05 at 08:31 PM.
    Fierydemise-ShaowCraft Engine Guy
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)
    Rogue IRC: #Ravenholdt on Quakenet

  2. #2
    1) Every time I need a quick glance to see if an itemdrop is an upgrade or not. (or potential upgrade)
    2) 8, I tend to check SC during a raid, and SimCraft after raid to check if it really was an upgrade. SC is often correct tho.
    3/4) I am quite happy with how SC is right now. I don't feel like I miss/need any more features in it. (What I can think of)

  3. #3
    First off, thanks so much for your work! It's really nice to have ShadowCraft as a rogue and it was really spoiled me. As for your questions:

    1) Generally any time I have any question about an item. Even if I know if something is an upgrade I will often check to see how much it should effect my dps.

    2) 8, I trust most things but am really iffy about a lot of trinkets.

    3) Better/More accurate readings for trinkets. Awhile back I was looking at combat and the class trinket was low, which is obviously silly. (I know trinkets are a major pain, but one can dream)

    4) I can honestly say that there has not been a time when I was using ShadowCraft and thought to myself, "Man, I wish I could do this". All is good on the feature front for me!

    Once again thank you for all of your work. You dah real MVP.

    EDIT: I went back and looked at the combat thing again, and it looks like the class trinket it way high as it should be. I'm not sure what the deal was when I was looking at it before, but I just thought I should mention it is fine now. Still think that trinkets could be modeled better though.
    Last edited by Ninjafuzz; 2015-10-05 at 09:04 PM.

  4. #4
    1) I use it for quick comparisons when I don't have the time to run SimC. ShadowCraft makes it a LOT easier to compare different pieces of equipment.
    2) ~7

    4) I would like to be able to use ShadowCraft as a front end while using EP values generated from SimC. This would allow for more flexibilty as you can generate EP "profiles" while using different APLs/settings for different purposes.

    I would also like to be able to generate SimC profiles from ShadowCraft (sort of like how the simulationcraft addon does ingame).

  5. #5
    An in-game addon similar to pawn would be nice. I've always thought it would be cool to have an addon that reads the gear from your bags/bank and tells you what your current bis slot gear is from the pieces you own.

  6. #6
    1) How often do you use ShadowCraft? What questions do you consult ShadowCraft to answer?

    Fairly regularly, I use the BiS and trinkets lists from the SimCraft thread plus ShadowCraft to work out upgrades etc...

    2) On a scale of 1-10(max) how much do you trust results from ShadowCraft?

    Probably around an 8 or 9, it's usually easy to spot any logical anomalies such as where a proc isn't quite modelled properly yet.

    3) What would improve your trust in ShadowCraft?

    I guess I take the simcraft thread results as the baseline, and an ability to compare between specs through Shadowcraft (meaningfully, e.g. change spec between Assn and Sub and actually be able to use those numbers to decide on what spec will produce more DPS) and measure against baseline numbers direct from Simcraft. This could also go under section 4.

    4) What additional features would like to see in ShadowCraft?

    An ability to export stat weights would be nice, but there's a couple of different mods that people use to view weights in game so that would make it a bit more tedious I guess.

    Also the ability to compare between specs, and the ability to match against simcraft results.

  7. #7
    1) I use it daily, especially when Im planning gear advancement. I look to see the which stat priority maximize dps for the current spec.
    2) 9, I also do my own min/maxing to compare what you get.
    3) I do trust the results, just like to do my own numbers occasionally.

  8. #8
    Shadowcraft isn't designed for a non-raider like me, but it would nontheless be interesting if

    4) Timewalking stats could be added
    (And I have no trouble seeing the magnitude of work that could be, but I have always found it interesting as a mental exercise to toy around with how good old gear sets and bonuses were, also compared to each other. The answers to that would possibly be seen with such a feature. We can only hope they will do Timewalking raids too soon?)

  9. #9
    1) I use it moslty before the raid to see if boss has any upgrades for me
    2) I would say 8 because of trinkets.
    3) Fixing trinkets ( though i understand fixing this could be difficult)
    4) As other posters have already suggested- having an addon to check stuff from in-game would be awesome.

    p.s. once again thank you for keeping shadowcraft updated. Wish other classes would have applications like this one
    Pugs are like Master Card---- Priceless.

  10. #10
    Hey there

    1) Occasionally. I used it to compare which M WF off piece from my bags yields the best results in combination with 4p.

    2) 10 in general, 2 for trinkets though.

    3) -

    4) Rename DPS to EP.
    Find best enchant/gem setup feature.

  11. #11
    1) Several times a week, especially if I get new gear pieces. I use it mostly for quick answers on gear choices (just gear with static stats, not trinkets).
    2) 9
    3) trinkets (especially consequences of stacking them with cooldowns, potions, etc.), but I understand it's hard to expect it from a model
    4) Downscaling gear to Challenge Mode/Timewalking ilvl/level would be nice to have, but I don't think the effort is worth it for content that doesn't need that much optimization

  12. #12
    1) on every raid day / comparing gear apart from trinkets

    2) 8 to 9 with the limitation in mind, what shadowcraft can and cannot do

    3) not for me, but for people new to shadowcraft, setting up a short note or an faq how shadowcraft works and how it is different to simc

    4) export function for snapshots, which can be used on different pcs and already existing snapshots should be shown in the "save snapshot" dropdown menu to overwrite them

    5) I am just hoping that the project stays alive and that other classes and developers catch on to it, since it's such a wonderful tool to play around with.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post

    1) How often do you use ShadowCraft? What questions do you consult ShadowCraft to answer?
    All the time. I always have a window up to double check if X or Y item is better. I like how fast it is to swap between items and speccs, and how easy it is to add sockets, enchants etc.

    The main question I want answered is: Is this an uppgrade and how big is it? Usually I will double check with simcraft as I noted that there are some differances between the accuracy and trinket / ring value on the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    2) On a scale of 1-10(max) how much do you trust results from ShadowCraft?
    For single item uppgrades and stat values: 7. For trinkets / proccs: 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    3) What would improve your trust in ShadowCraft?
    Due to the quality of the rogue Simulationcraft profiles I would wish for the ability to do calculations (standard Patchwerk and Beastlord type) on the webpage. Since the optimized profiles have the quality they have on SimCraft I often tend to double check there, to determine if it is an actual uppgrade if ShadowCraft shows small differences. I don't know how to (I didnt do too much research tho) if and how you can apply custom "code" to rotation and the profile used.

    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    4) What additional features would like to see in ShadowCraft?
    1. The ability to export SimCraft-gear profiles (Like the SimCraft addon) to import into Simcraft, because shadowcraft is much better than simcraft when it comes to quickly swap between gear sets, but I believe SimCraft to be slightly more accurate when it comes to dps calculation as it does calculations whereas I understood Shadowcraft uses more standard values and doesnt Sim each gear choice.

    2. The ability to log with an account and save profiles, gear sets, presets, enchants since the snapshots tend to be gone whenever I close the browser. This to make it easier to use different computers and less hazzle.

    3. The ability to compare two sets to eachother in the same window, instead of having two different windows open next to each other. Sort of having two "characters" loaded at the same time.

    4. Actual simulations in the web-browers. Either with a plugin or directly in the browers. I realize this will put some stress on the server but this could be added as a premium feature or something. I would subscribe to that.
    4.1. If web-based simulations would be a thing, I would love for a window to apply custom codes and profiles for specific testing.

    I salute your work with this tool and I use it extensively. I love it and cherish it and I pray to RNGesus that you will keep it running during legion.

  14. #14
    1) I use it most raid days for quick answers, the database is very useful.

    2) The trust in results is an 8 or 9. However the clarity of conclusions is weaker than it could be. Descriptions reminding less familiar people with the website that comparison cross specs is not sensible, and reminders that multi-target is on for front page (inflating mirror value for example).

    3) a brief user guide with pictures would be nice, or a YouTube recording of what the authors find useful. Any neat tricks or quick shortcuts.

    4) As I said to you on IRC, the forums for Ravenholdt would benefit from much greater traffic if they were as usable as plus heal used to be or this forum on mobile devices (iPad or tablet is ok, but phone screen it doesn't format well). Shadowcraft suffers from the same thing - a mobile friendly version like the old AMR would be useful.

    As I maintain, it's a quicker way to check things on the fly than simcraft, and let's you play with some various setups. If it was comparable between specs - I.e as 3 lines on the graph as different colours, then that would be brilliant being able to see whether with the particular gear you have on, should I be playing x or y spec.

    A boss by boss setup option could be nice too - e.g HFA setup would be helterskelter, Iron reaver solo and hellfire council a council fight. Then having a default starting point to work from would be good.

    All ideas at the end of the day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Trinkets is an interesting one because AMR very rarely gets this right either. Maybe there could be some simple setup rules for trinkets (good,medium,bad RNJesus?) to show what you can expect from a trinket and what you can dream of getting. I know with complicated trinket interactions like soul cap it would be complicated but that's part of the fun surely?

  15. #15
    Thank you for your work fierydemise!

    1) I use ShadowCraft for every item I receive, usually during/after Raids. I occasionally go through items I have sitting in my bag to see if I have possibly overlooked an upgrade. I#d say I use it 3 times/week.

    2) 10

    4) a gear ranking possibly? I can't think of anything that would add to the functionality in terms of what ShC actual goal is. I believe that it fulfills its task 100%. I can only think of features that would be nice to have but not necessary. Maybe move the amount of targets to the Gear-page, that's it.

    EDIT: Reading the other posts I remembered that I don't use it for trinkets either, indeed.
    Last edited by mmoc6b8b1b0d59; 2015-10-06 at 06:29 PM.

  16. #16
    I trust it very much but not on trinkets with proc / passive effect like class trinket. otherwise i use it all the time !

  17. #17
    1) How often do you use ShadowCraft? What questions do you consult ShadowCraft to answer?
    Every Time i get a new peace of gear and im not sure its an upgrade or not, otherwise to compare single parts of gear or to compare my gear with other rogues in my Raid.

    2) On a scale of 1-10(max) how much do you trust results from ShadowCraft?
    8, I think the only problem are Trinkets, somtimes I dont trust the trinket results.

    3) What would improve your trust in ShadowCraft?
    Fix Trinkets results (if possible), so that the results fit the other sorces of informations you can get.

    4) What additional features would like to see in ShadowCraft?
    Ingame addon which compares single parts of gear with the gear you wear.

  18. #18
    1)mostly during raid when im not sure if piece of gear will be an upgrade, when i don't have time to simc it.
    4)i would like to see bis pieces of gear highlighted in item suggestion (with tag bis combat,bis sub, bis assa) since shadowcraft suggest gear based on what you currently wearing and your stat weights at that point. That would help a bit for rogues that didnt go through other threads, didnt simc etc. so some warforged loot wont be wasted if you gonna change it at some point and other classes would use it better.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylie View Post
    4) Downscaling gear to Challenge Mode/Timewalking ilvl/level would be nice to have, but I don't think the effort is worth it for content that doesn't need that much optimization
    It would be great to be able to scale down the gear to rank loot for scaled content.

    I've been trying to optimize my CM gear, but I don't remember what stats were good at 630.

  20. #20
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