Alliance - Good/Heroes, Horde - Bad/Villains?

[Shampro]

Why are you guys still getting baited by DragonHeart? He/She's obviously either trolling or lying hardcore about reading Rise of the Lich King.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Except he is not portrayed at all that way in his book.

Proof? That's how I saw it when I read it. Or is this a case of how one pronounces "potatoes?"

every single one of your and Xilurm's "points" was obliterated by that one simple quote.

How and where? None of those quotes did such a thing. You still lack an appropriate evidence to that claim. None of that altercates the passive dominion that the Lich King has on the Scourge. Without his dominion the undead become uncontrollable, meaning that they are under control in the first place. Therefore, Arthas, being Scourge Undead, is innately and passively controlled by the Lich King. It is the same reason that a Lich King needs to exist, to control the remaining Scourge undead through mental domination.

which would have been possible with both of them in the same body. out of all your fabricated and incorrect assumptions this point you made was the worst.

Only they're not only supported by the events in WC3, but also by events in Wrath of the Lich King.

aside from outright showing that he was under his own will in the book?

You quoted how the Lich King's control through Frostmorne was not needed to make a decision, therefore, Frostmourne is a conduit of control for the Lich King over Arthas. This is along with his passive dominion over all Scourge Undead.

So then you agree that the Lich King wasn't controlling him.

No, if fact, it only proves my point further, as Arthas "didn't need" the sword to make that decision for him. That mean that he's being controlled in the first place.

Mindless undead is infact mindless, no thought nothing, mindless automatons, meat puppets, husks Arthas had his mind and made choices of his own, he called himself King Of Lordaeron because he said he was born to rule it not because ner'zhul told him too. He cried out when Invicible was cut down in Quel'thalas, he killed Ner'zhul.

Arthas has no thoughts that aren't check and controlled by the Lich King. He is mindless and holds nothing against the Lich King while he's a death knight. He amounts to nothing more than his puppet, literally.

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Exactly....he didn't need to impose on his thoughts. Arthas was more than willing to comply. Key word: Willing.

So you agree that he is controlled then? He complied well with the will of the Lich King, he was under his control after all.

[Deleted]

Horde = true underdog heroes and Allince = arrogant human scrum at least that is what I see going by Blizzards showing so far weird as even in defeat the horde win you d think the horde would stop being shown as underdogs by now.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Why are you guys still getting baited by DragonHeart? He/She's obviously either trolling or lying hardcore about reading Rise of the Lich King.

How so? None of those point actually do deny the fact that he was in fact controlled in some manner.

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It is not a direct form of mind control. It influences decisions...it does not control them.

Controlling and manipulating someone's decisions is controlling them.

[Friendlyimmolation]

[QUOTEProof? That's how I saw it when I read it. Or is this a case of how one pronounces "potatoes?"][/QUOTE]

His soul is taken from him, not his will, he gladly goes with the Lich king because he (for the most part) no longer finds issue with the scourge.

How and where? None of those quotes did such a thing.

Just as bad as Xirlum then, Then again you also called the Sunreaver civilians in that other thread a terrorist organization so I wasn't expecting much. The Quote shows that he himself still had a innter voice, something he wouldnt have had if he was dominated by the lich king.

Only they're not only supported by the events in WC3, but also by events in Wrath of the Lich King.

none of which support your ridiculous theory that he was mind controlled. inf fact how about you pull up a link that PROVES he was mind controlled?

No, if fact, it only proves my point further, as Arthas "didn't need" the sword to make that decision for him. That mean that he's being controlled in the first place.

so at this point you seem to be so confused that Arthas having free will and having doubts about what he was doing proves he was mind controlled.

Arthas has no thoughts that aren't check and controlled by the Lich King

So which one is it? Are you ignoring the book quotes or Just unable to read them? That quote showed he had thoughts going against the lich King, no matter how hard you try to squirm it away.

So you agree that he is controlled then? He complied well with the will of the Lich King, he was under his control after all.

Show a link where it was showed he was mind Controlled. Go ahead we will be waiting.

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Controlling and manipulating someone's decisions is controlling them.

If I tell you to kill your dad, and you kill your dad I am not mind controlling you, if I tell you to come to me you aren't mind controlled. If you later stab me and take control of my Scourge I'm sure as hell not mind controlling you.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

So you agree that he is controlled then? He complied well with the will of the Lich King, he was under his control after all.

Not sure how you get that from "Willing to Comply". Willing means he has choice, free will. If Ner'zhul said "You should have a Coke" Arthas was like "Fuck yeah...I'd love a Coke". Not "Whatever the master wants" or even "Well, I prefer Pepsi...but ok...I'll get a Coke". There may have been a part of him that wanted to get a Pepsi instead...but he shut that shit down.

Arthas was under his own control...not Ner'zhul's.

[Cannibalus]

That's because the moment he picked up Frostmorne, he became essentially mindless to the Lich king power and influence, the quote mentioned above even states this. He realizes how futile his efforts have been and he callowly follows the Lich King in a more subservient way than a pet would. He doesn't try because he doesn't have a choice but to serve the Lich King, as all Scourge do. It is no choice, there is no free will, there is only service and heeding the controlling dominance that the Lich King holds over the Scourge. This couldn't be any plainer.

IMO it's badly written lore, it's the same feeling when watching Twilight "oooh i'm bloodthirsty right now, oh wait i love you, i can only control myself when my undead penis desires so". Taken from wowwiki: "After the death of his father, Arthas claims he no longer feels remorse, shame, or pity, which is explained by him losing his soul to Frostmourne.[6] Here was born a new Arthas, a ruthless and cynical person with a grim sense of humor. As a death knight, Arthas was not above mocking his enemies and gloating over their defeats.

Despite this, somewhere deep inside him a portion of him still existed that fought against the darkness. The Lich King later destroyed this small remnant of who he was, and only at the end, when Frostmourne was broken and the lich king was defeated, his soul was finally released. "

So what i understand is that once he took Frostmourne, he was like 90% under the control of the LK. Even when he faces Uther, he doesn't just slice him up saying "for the Lich King", he actually takes him time to rationalize his decision to kill him for being an asshole and not helping him when he mostly needed. The most interesting part tho is when he "fused" with Nerzhul, and in the dream following the fusion, it was Arthas, a kid and Nerzhul sitting at a table, and Arthas stabbed both Nerzhul and the kid, denying Nerzhul's control and removing his humanity (there's a questline with the kid aka Arthas' humanity in Icecrown). So in the end, the Lich King that we fight in ICC is just Arthas, with no remorse and with the desire to destroy the world, while also keeping a few items close to his heart, as you see in the Shadowmourne quest items, he still kept them, items that would make him remember the people that mattered to him (which i find fucking disgusting but w/e, especially with poor Sylvannas...).

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

How so? None of those point actually do deny the fact that he was in fact controlled in some manner.

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Controlling and manipulating someone's decisions is controlling them.

Manipulation is not control.
I can manipulate someone into grabbing a Coke for me....it doesn't mean I took control over their mind and made them do it.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Not sure how you get that from "Willing to Comply". Willing means he has choice, free will. If Ner'zhul said "You should have a Coke" Arthas was like "Fuck yeah...I'd love a Coke". Not "Whatever the master wants" or even "Well, I prefer Pepsi...but ok...I'll get a Coke". There may have been a part of him that wanted to get a Pepsi instead...but he shut that shit down.

Arthas was under his own control...not Ner'zhul's.

This is your quote:

Then why does he have to force down the sentiment? There should be no sentiment if he is nothng but a mindless death knight under the lich king's power.

He has to force it because he's being controlled to do so. When he does something that's in-line with the will of Ner'zuhl of course the sword isn't going to stop him. So, this is what you mean by your statement, while he may not want coke, having him drink a Pepsi still makes him drink a soda. The element of the matter being, it get the job done anyway, Arthas just thinks that he has free will, despite Ner'zuhl controlling Arthas's thoughts by posing a fake choice into drinking a soda regardless of the brand. The Lich King has always been about the big picture, the destination and not the journey. It never matter how Arthas did things, as long as it got the results that he wanted. That is control.

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Manipulation is not control.
I can manipulate someone into grabbing a Coke for me....it doesn't mean I took control over their mind and made them do it.

No, you commanded them, and then they did it for you, just as you told them to. If you manipulated them into doing it, they didn't have a choice because you controlled the notion unfairly through manipulation in the first place. Manipulating someone to do something for you is controlling them.

[CaptainV]

The horde is generally more leaned to being the morally dark grey faction though saying that doesnt make it evil, just morally dark grey.

They're survivors, some are good (Tauren, Houjin Pandaren) some are in the middle (Blood Elves, Orcs, Trolls, Goblins) and some, generally prefer to destroy their enemies than wait around for their enemies (Undead).

Now there are exceptions in every races camp, they are however, exceptions, the majority of these races generally lean towards the steriotype listed above.

Ultimatley this portrays the Horde as "generally" dark grey, and more willing to do questionable things to "survive" such as communing with undead gods (Bwonsamdi), using plagues, conquering rival nations before they can be a threat (Garrosh Reign).

However, some, amoung those survivors just want to live, as opposed to conquer.

So ultimatley, the Horde is morally dark grey, not evil, just not good.

[Lady Dragonheart]

IMO it's badly written lore, it's the same feeling when watching Twilight "oooh i'm bloodthirsty right now, oh wait i love you, i can only control myself when my undead penis desires so". Taken from wowwiki: "After the death of his father, Arthas claims he no longer feels remorse, shame, or pity, which is explained by him losing his soul to Frostmourne.[6] Here was born a new Arthas, a ruthless and cynical person with a grim sense of humor. As a death knight, Arthas was not above mocking his enemies and gloating over their defeats.

Despite this, somewhere deep inside him a portion of him still existed that fought against the darkness. The Lich King later destroyed this small remnant of who he was, and only at the end, when Frostmourne was broken and the lich king was defeated, his soul was finally released. "

So what i understand is that once he took Frostmourne, he was like 90% under the control of the LK. Even when he faces Uther, he doesn't just slice him up saying "for the Lich King", he actually takes him time to rationalize his decision to kill him for being an asshole and not helping him when he mostly needed. The most interesting part tho is when he "fused" with Nerzhul, and in the dream following the fusion, it was Arthas, a kid and Nerzhul sitting at a table, and Arthas stabbed both Nerzhul and the kid, denying Nerzhul's control and removing his humanity (there's a questline with the kid aka Arthas' humanity in Icecrown). So in the end, the Lich King that we fight in ICC is just Arthas, with no remorse and with the desire to destroy the world, while also keeping a few items close to his heart, as you see in the Shadowmourne quest items, he still kept them, items that would make him remember the people that mattered to him (which i find fucking disgusting but w/e, especially with poor Sylvannas...).

It is bad when put under the microscope. However, in reality, neither of us is entirely right. I just want them to accept what I see and why I see it. I already accept their understanding of it, and in some cases I agree. However, I do believe that the overarching fact that the Lich King controls the undead Scourge is the primary factor. While people can bicker either way about it, that is where I stand.

In the end, it can change from the devs releasing anything that will retcon whatever... it can be today, tomorrow, or never. No one truly knows for sure, that's why everyone's opinion is valuable.

[Natrii]

Each race sets thier own tone. You could not say any race is good or evil...maybe the Taurens and Dranei as the apex of the good standered and Night elves and the Forsaken for bad...maybe even blood elves. Either way nobody is really good or bad

[TheRickyB]

Yes, the thing is we don't see Arthas as a hero of the Alliance. Grom is a hero of the Horde. Garrosh was the leader of the Horde, supported by the masses up to a point. Sylvannas is still part of the Horde. None of those you mentioned are part of the Alliance anymore. Medivh is the only one that could be seen somewhat like a hero, and that is more due to some knowing it was Sargeras who was at fault.
On the other hand, the Horde glorifies their "villans". Grom is a hero of the Horde. Garrosh was a hero and the warchief of the Horde (thought I'll admit that the Horde doesn't support either anymore). Sylvannas is a powerful leader of the Horde.
The only remotely close comparison is Moira as leader of the Dark Iron dwarves, but they have become more mild since they joined the Alliance or Maiev... but she kind of left the Alliance.

how about Velen? who knowingly fled to Populated planets to hide from the Legion? getting Literally every world he landed on (except Azeroth AT THIS TIME) destroyed and the populations enslaved or exterminated?

oh but hes the light incarnate guess that gives him a pass. . .

[Friendlyimmolation]

It is bad when put under the microscope. However, in reality, neither of us is entirely right. I just want them to accept what I see

why should I accept what you see when it isn't true?

, I do believe that the overarching fact that the Lich King controls the undead Scourge is the primary factor. While people can bicker either way about it, that is where I stand.

Arthas and the cultists weren't undead in the book and not directly controlled by him. They did things under the lich king's rule but were not physically controlled.

In the end, it can change from the devs releasing anything that will retcon whatever... it can be today, tomorrow, or never. No one truly knows for sure, that's why everyone's opinion is valuable.

Ah the classic ending to a "I know I'm wrong but I wont admit it" is saying "the story can change because of retcons"

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

This is your quote:



He has to force it because he's being controlled to do so. When he does something that's in-line with the will of Ner'zuhl of course the sword isn't going to stop him. So, this is what you mean by your statement, while he may not want coke, having him drink a Pepsi still makes him drink a soda. The element of the matter being, it get the job done anyway, Arthas just thinks that he has free will, despite Ner'zuhl controlling Arthas's thoughts by posing a fake choice into drinking a soda regardless of the brand. The Lich King has always been about the big picture, the destination and not the journey. It never matter how Arthas did things, as long as it got the results that he wanted. That is control.

No, that is not what i said or what I meant and you know it.

If the Lich King doesn't directly subvert Arthas' Will...then he his not controlling him. Arthas is complying because he chooses to. Choice is present. He knocks his feelings down because they get in the way. If he were under control... any feelings he had would be irrelevant and there would be no need for Ner'zhul to stomp them down. The very fact that Arthas is worried about his feelings getting in the way is the proof that he is not directly under mind control.

[Nirathiel]

IIRC in RoC in the first encounter between Arthas/Illidan, when Arthas is trying to convince Illidan to steal the skull of Gul'dan. He says "The lord I serve would benefit from the legion's downfall"
and "My master sees through all" makes it sound like he is a minion of Ner'zhul.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

IIRC in RoC in the first encounter between Arthas/Illidan, when Arthas is trying to convince Illidan to steal the skull of Gul'dan. He says "The lord I serve would benefit from the legion's downfall"
and "My master sees through all" makes it sound like he is a minion of Ner'zhul.

You can serve someone without being directly under mind control.
Unless you think your boss has direct control over you?

[Zulkhan]

IIRC in RoC in the first encounter between Arthas/Illidan, when Arthas is trying to convince Illidan to steal the skull of Gul'dan. He says "The lord I serve would benefit from the legion's downfall"
and "My master sees through all" makes it sound like he is a minion of Ner'zhul.

Yeah, he served Ner'zhul. By his own will. At some point he even questioned if the demons or the Lich King were going to discard him after they achieved their respective goals and he wasn't going to allow it, not after all he sacrificed.

He served as a minion but hell if he knew what he was doing.

[Nyoken]

Well naturally just looking at lets say a Human or a Gnome you would go "Aww how cute! they look nice!" and whilst looking at a Orc or a Undead you would prob go "Ohh....They don't look very friendly, I would prob stay away from those guys!". So you kinda get the more friendly "good" like feeling from Alliance as oppose to the more darker evil feeling towards some races of the Horde.

[Lady Dragonheart]

His soul is taken from him, not his will, he gladly goes with the Lich king because he (for the most part) no longer finds issue with the scourge.

That's because he's no longer human, and no longer free, he is bound to the Lich King and serves him like any other Scourge Undead.

Just as bad as Xirlum then, Then again you also called the Sunreaver civilians in that other thread a terrorist organization so I wasn't expecting much. The Quote shows that he himself still had a innter voice, something he wouldnt have had if he was dominated by the lich king.

You can still be controlled and have an inner voice. Unless you have proof of something other than that. How many games, shows, movies are there where someone is control, but their little voice comes out and warns the protagonist that they're being controlled? It's way more common than your point of view, for sure. It even happens in WoW with some quests where people are being controlled by the Scourge through passive undeath. That dynamic faint slip of their inner voice before being controlled once more begging them to kill them or run away, or even thank them from being released from the Lich King's control.

none of which support your ridiculous theory that he was mind controlled. inf fact how about you pull up a link that PROVES he was mind controlled?

You other than passive being Scourge Undead, just like the rest of the undead... I mean the game is littered with references to the Lich King's control, both in WoW and WC3... you'd have to be blind not to see it. Yet, you're demanding proof of the Lich King's control over undead?

so at this point you seem to be so confused that Arthas having free will and having doubts about what he was doing proves he was mind controlled.

I'm not confused, though. I'm rather certain, even with the quotes that were presented. If anything, the reinforce the idea that I have. It makes complete sense from the notations that were linked in the dialog that was quoted... I'm actually surprised that you don't see it... Why don't you try rereading it with my perspect that I pointed out. It makes perfect sense, then.

So which one is it? Are you ignoring the book quotes or Just unable to read them? That quote showed he had thoughts going against the lich King, no matter how hard you try to squirm it away.

I'm not ignoring it, as a matter of fact, I pointed out why my point stand with those quotes. You just refuse to see my point. I see your point clearly, but I see that your refusing one of the most basic aspects of the Scourge Undead, that they are, in fact, controlled by the Lich King. They can easily have inner voices and try to break control every so often, I mean just look at the ICC raid and 5-mans. They want to help and do, until brought back under control again. Control is the primary factor of the Scourge, it is predominate that there has to be a Lich King in the word in order to maintain it.

Show a link where it was showed he was mind Controlled. Go ahead we will be waiting.

You can use literally any wiki or just take a run though dungeons or the raid. It's really that simple. Quest though the Plaguelands or read up on Sylvanas liberation story about escaping the Lich King's control. Even the old quests like the battle of Darrowshire mention it as well as all the quests to put spirits to rest so that the Lich King cannot control them... The lore is littered with references all over the game about the Lich King's Passive control over the Scourge.

If I tell you to kill your dad, and you kill your dad I am not mind controlling you, if I tell you to come to me you aren't mind controlled. If you later stab me and take control of my Scourge I'm sure as hell not mind controlling you.

If there's proof of manipulation on your part of me taking an order from you, then you are at fault as well. For Arthas, both his passive undeath and wielding Frostmourne can function in this manner. That is the proof. All of the Scourge are controlled by the Lich King, it's everywhere in the lore.

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No, that is not what i said or what I meant and you know it.

If the Lich King doesn't directly subvert Arthas' Will...then he his not controlling him. Arthas is complying because he chooses to. Choice is present. He knocks his feelings down because they get in the way. If he were under control... any feelings he had would be irrelevant and there would be no need for Ner'zhul to stomp them down. The very fact that Arthas is worried about his feelings getting in the way is the proof that he is not directly under mind control.

You need proof that he doesn't, in fact, control Arthas. All Scourge are controlled by the Lich King, none of them can resist him, moments of willpower show and then vanish under the powerful control of the Lich King, but in the end, they all do as he wishes. There is no choice or free will for the members of the Scourge when it comes to the dominance that the Lich King has over them.