"rotation" opener question/help PVE

[luciphear]

hi all,
yes i know there arent any rotations, it is priority.
still i have some headache about the "standard" opener boss fights PVE.
today i go something like this single target.

1, prepot 1-2 sec left to pull.
2, chimaera shot
3, stampede
4, aimed shot til drained
5, rapid fire
6, steady shot if necesary then to pump as many AiS as possibly hoping to proc ToTH to spam even more Ais and
ofc have enough focus to get CS always on cooldown. after that i end up to make sure i have focus for CS on cd and battling
between steady shot and AiS.

so im wondering am i on right track or do i miss something?

[Juici]

from the guide linked in this thread http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Hunter-Guide:

This is the recommended way to start a fight.
Precast Powershot at ~1s on the pulltimer if the ring is popped immediately. Use it at 2s if it is not.
Stampede + Any damage-dealt increasing cooldowns, such as the Orc Blood Fury + Mirror of the Blademaster trinket.
Chimaera Shot + Rapid Fire (only RF here if you are not using the T18 4-piece bonus)
Aimed Shot + any focus-returning cooldowns, such as the Blood Elf Arcane Torrent
Aimed Shot till you are out of focus.
Rapid Fire (if you ARE using the T18 4-piece bonus) + Steady Shot
Proceed with the rotation up above.

[Dwoggurd]

1, prepot 1-2 sec left to pull.
2, chimaera shot
3, stampede
4, aimed shot til drained
5, rapid fire
6, steady shot if necesary then to pump as many AiS as possibly hoping to proc ToTH to spam even more Ais and
ofc have enough focus to get CS always on cooldown. after that i end up to make sure i have focus for CS on cd and battling
between steady shot and AiS.

This one is correct.

You can also pre-cast steady shot with pre-pot (2s before pull) to have additional chance at proc'ing trinkets (if you have rppms) and minimal damage. This is not free though, you will have to pre-pot 2s before pull instead of 1s, so this is dps-neutral change if you go to extremes.

Stampede should be after CS (as you do already). This allows you to start CS cooldown asap and gives you one gcd for focus regen (when you cast stampede). If you revert this order, you will be sitting at full focus while casting stampede and delay CS by 1s. The downside of it is that with bad luck you may lose 1s of trinkets for something important, but on the bright side, your trinkets will pop 1s earlier next time! Well, I'm just kidding. The difference of using Stampede before CS of after CS seems to very very minor if any. On mythic Archimonde you may want to delay your CS by 1s so your 3rd CS cleaves first deathcaller instead of being "wasted" on Archimonde only.

Starting RF asap or waiting until you drain focus depends on fight and strategy.
The general consensus is that using RF on the pull with ring or delaying it by a few seconds is dps neutral. Well, maybe not neutral, but in practice you will see no difference because you can't really delay RF for too long anyway.
A few things to consider though:
- high ilevel legendary ring raises value of using RF asap.
- On Reaver, for example, you want to use RF asap so you use it again with ring right before the air phase. This is especially important if you kill mythic Reaver before the first air phase with a few seconds to spare (will not matter soon though).
- if you delay the ring, on heroic Archimonde/Kilrogg for example, you better drain your focus first before using RF.
- if boss is dropped below 85% very fast (in 10-15s), delaying RF is also beneficial because you extend careful aim duration.

[luciphear]

This one is correct.

You can also pre-cast steady shot with pre-pot (2s before pull) to have additional chance at proc'ing trinkets (if you have rppms) and minimal damage. This is not free though, you will have to pre-pot 2s before pull instead of 1s, so this is dps-neutral change if you go to extremes.

Stampede should be after CS (as you do already). This allows you to start CS cooldown asap and gives you one gcd for focus regen (when you cast stampede). If you revert this order, you will be sitting at full focus while casting stampede and delay CS by 1s. The downside of it is that with bad luck you may lose 1s of trinkets for something important, but on the bright side, your trinkets will pop 1s earlier next time! Well, I'm just kidding. The difference of using Stampede before CS of after CS seems to very very minor if any. On mythic Archimonde you may want to delay your CS by 1s so your 3rd CS cleaves first deathcaller instead of being "wasted" on Archimonde only.

Starting RF asap or waiting until you drain focus depends on fight and strategy.
The general consensus is that using RF on the pull with ring or delaying it by a few seconds is dps neutral. Well, maybe not neutral, but in practice you will see no difference because you can't really delay RF for too long anyway.
A few things to consider though:
- high ilevel legendary ring raises value of using RF asap.
- On Reaver, for example, you want to use RF asap so you use it again with ring right before the air phase. This is especially important if you kill mythic Reaver before the first air phase with a few seconds to spare (will not matter soon though).
- if you delay the ring, on heroic Archimonde/Kilrogg for example, you better drain your focus first before using RF.
- if boss is dropped below 85% very fast (in 10-15s), delaying RF is also beneficial because you extend careful aim duration.

this was very good explained, thanks a lot for taking my headache away

[Azortharion]

Stampede should be after CS (as you do already). This allows you to start CS cooldown asap and gives you one gcd for focus regen (when you cast stampede). If you revert this order, you will be sitting at full focus while casting stampede and delay CS by 1s. The downside of it is that with bad luck you may lose 1s of trinkets for something important, but on the bright side, your trinkets will pop 1s earlier next time! Well, I'm just kidding. The difference of using Stampede before CS of after CS seems to very very minor if any. On mythic Archimonde you may want to delay your CS by 1s so your 3rd CS cleaves first deathcaller instead of being "wasted" on Archimonde only.

Not really correct, though.

By pushing back Stampede in the opener, you're eliminating half a second to a full second of Hero/Potion overlap with the 40-second Stampede, and potentially trinkets too.

Additionally, by Chimaera Shotting first, you're not likely getting it buffed by the numerous trinket procs that would most likely result after Stampeding first.

This is why the guide recommends Stampeding first, to put as high uptime of any buffs from pull on top of it as possible, and because you want as much as possible to proc for when you first Chimaera Shot one second after.

[Gaarashatan]

i'd have to go with azor on this one, hes a great hunter and the logic really plays in. and great guilds will hero and ring as soon as that boss is pulled, if thats what your guild is planning to do for this? boss, and you're going to want a full hero stamp duration and a trink chim, hopefully crit lol, during ring. not to mention stamp goes into ring as well. a hero'd stamp will go about 500k more than usual

[Azortharion]

The ring (and overlap with Stampede and the first Chimaera Shot) is an important factor as well, yes. Probably the most important of all.

[Dwoggurd]

Not really correct, though.

By pushing back Stampede in the opener, you're eliminating half a second to a full second of Hero/Potion overlap with the 40-second Stampede, and potentially trinkets too.

Additionally, by Chimaera Shotting first, you're not likely getting it buffed by the numerous trinket procs that would most likely result after Stampeding first.

This is why the guide recommends Stampeding first, to put as high uptime of any buffs from pull on top of it as possible, and because you want as much as possible to proc for when you first Chimaera Shot one second after.

I don't think Stampede procs trinkets. At least I don't see any confirmation in logs.
However, if you want to delay CS for some other reasons such as better syncing with the ring (if it is pop'd 1s late but not 2s late) I believe it is ok. There is a 11% chance to lose CS usage because of that delay, but if you find yourself consistently firing CS before the ring it will be a good trade off to delay it. You basically improve your first CS by 30-40% for a chance to lose 100% damage at the end of combat.
And to be honest, those things are so minor and also depends on how exactly your guild pulls, you can't really do wrong by swapping CS and Stampede both ways.
If you really want trinkets for your first CS, precast something or start with AS, followed by Stampede and CS.

[Azortharion]

No, but you start attack with Stampede (or should, if not through the ability itself then a /startattack line in the Stampede macro).

An 11% chance of losing 100% is less damage lost on average than a 100% chance of losing ~30%. I am no semi-abstract math champion, but losing 100% damage 11% of the time amounts to 11% damage lost on average, while a 100% chance of losing 30% is, well, a 30% damage lost on average. Or maybe I am wrong.

They are minor, yes. I am still eager to discuss them, and point out where the opener you cited as the correct one may not be completely correct.

Plus, in the realm of "minor" improvements, this is a pretty major one. If one option is demonstrably worse than the other one, then performing the wrong order is, well, doing it wrong.

There is a way of getting trinket procs more often than not for that first CS, which doesn't involve a DPS loss like the precasting stuff you mention. You cast Stampede, or rather, auto-shot. That's the entire point. I don't know for sure if Stampede itself procs trinkets, but that's irrelevant when Auto-Shot does, which has a travel time of 40yd/s when I am not mistaken, a range you'd pretty much always start under. Which means that even if the trinket does not proc till Auto-Shot lands, then you'll still get the proc before Chimaera Shot is cast.

Like mentioned, the ring is an important element as well, one that I neglected in my first post.

By Stampeding first, you maximize Stampede overlap with the ring. You also get a 30-40%+ damage buff on your Chimaera Shot.

The bit of focus regeneration you waste in that opener is barely crossing into the double digits. That depends on the specific timing of your Heroism. It's nowhere near enough to outweigh the damage bonus for Chimaera Shot in particular.

[Dwoggurd]

They are minor, yes. I am still eager to discuss them, and point out where the opener you cited as the correct one may not be completely correct.

I mostly call them minor because they are not only minor on their own, but they also are "moving targets" and depend on your guild, strat and a boss.
Sometimes hero and ring can be pop'd right before pull, sometimes it's delayed by couple seconds by strat or just because people do it a bit late (mages may want to finish precasted AB before time warping or something).
It also matters if people in your guild are willing to risk face-pulling or actually wait with their first hit until the boss is pulled for sure which could mean you delaying your opener by 0.5-1s so boss doesn't jump into random person, etc.

Out of curiosity I checked about 20 top MM logs on mythic Reaver. All of them have trinkets proc'd by first CS, not Stampede or autoshots (could be that people don't force /startattack). The only ones where CS was buff'd came out of other precasts (or AS first).

For example:

/reports/vG3ftB6aJW2mP1rq#fight=2&type=auras&start=922918&end=933778&source=9&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24114835429.0.0.Hunter%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24121818%5E0%24Separate%24%23909049%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24114835429.0.0.Hunter%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%2453209%5E0%24Separate%24%23a04D8A%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24114835429.0.0.Hunter%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%2419434&view=events

(add Warcraft Logs www address at the beginning, I can't post links).

The hunter in the log casted CS at 1.223 and he was lucky that the ring was pop'd at 1.060 and not 1.225 and he actually used CS at 1.223 and not 1.000, however he lost about 0.3s of hero buff for his stampede because he casted it before hero.
Ok ok, I'm just kidding. The point I'm trying to make: we are talking about 1s shift in abilities and it is really hard to make them right or wrong in universal sense. It depends on many other factors and timings and can go both ways. Simple lag spike for you or ring pop'er or hero pop'er can make or break it.

EDIT:
When I said CS before Stampede is "correct" it is only "correct" in a vacuum, where you're alone. Just you and the boss. None else with outside affects like hero/ring/etc.
I should test /startattack performance though. If it makes any difference (procs chance for CS at a price of delaying CS).

[Azortharion]

Stampede into CS will be better on average. That's the entire point. You could always make up scenarios where CS>Stamp would be better. Those are just either not as common, or not nearly as beneficial for CS>Stamp as a higher number of scenarios would be even more beneficial for the Stamp>CS method, if you catch my drift.

If I had (it's my log you're looking at, if you didn't notice) gone CS into Stamp, I would have missed out on a ring buff for my CS, guaranteed. I would also have missed out on 1.5s+ of Hero on top of Stampede.

Also, Auto Shot does proc trinkets. You're welcome to try it yourself.

What other precasts would you find among top 20 logs? I can't imagine anyone with a brain precasting Steady Shot, or using Powershot for Reaver Mythic.

[Dwoggurd]

What other precasts would you find among top 20 logs? I can't imagine anyone with a brain precasting Steady Shot, or using Powershot for Reaver Mythic.

You would be surprised... kek

AS before CS.
Which I personally don't advocate because it will be without ToTH, but on the other side, it proc'd trinkets for CS:

/reports/GfDa7xB6phb4dgkR#fight=4&type=casts&source=181&start=20460453&end=20473282&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24135562343.0.0.Hunter%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%2419434%5E0%24Separate%24%23909049%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24135562343.0.0.Hunter%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%2453209&view=events

Powershot:

/reports/pGdTKc8Z261MyFqX#fight=3&type=damage-done&source=26

(add Warcraft logs www address to these links)

[deatzh]

Stampede into CS will be better on average. That's the entire point. You could always make up scenarios where CS>Stamp would be better. Those are just either not as common, or not nearly as beneficial for CS>Stamp as a higher number of scenarios would be even more beneficial for the Stamp>CS method, if you catch my drift.

If I had (it's my log you're looking at, if you didn't notice) gone CS into Stamp, I would have missed out on a ring buff for my CS, guaranteed. I would also have missed out on 1.5s+ of Hero on top of Stampede.

Also, Auto Shot does proc trinkets. You're welcome to try it yourself.

What other precasts would you find among top 20 logs? I can't imagine anyone with a brain precasting Steady Shot, or using Powershot for Reaver Mythic.

To play devils advocate it doesnt matter when you cast chim, 2 should land during ring no matter whether you wait or not, now the 2nd one may not have scope/procs up if you chim first.

[Azortharion]

If you don't get one within the ring within the first 6 seconds, you'll obviously not have 2 within the ring's duration.

By Chimaera Shotting right off the bat, you're setting yourself up for 1 Chimaera Shot during the ring, at the 8-9 second mark. Too late for a second, unless the ring is popped on 0 - 0.5 on the pulltimer.

[Deleted]

Not really correct, though.

By pushing back Stampede in the opener, you're eliminating half a second to a full second of Hero/Potion overlap with the 40-second Stampede, and potentially trinkets too.

Additionally, by Chimaera Shotting first, you're not likely getting it buffed by the numerous trinket procs that would most likely result after Stampeding first.

This is why the guide recommends Stampeding first, to put as high uptime of any buffs from pull on top of it as possible, and because you want as much as possible to proc for when you first Chimaera Shot one second after.

If I don't talent Powershot, I precast an Aimed Shot instead? Or open up with Glaive Toss? What do you recommend.

[Azortharion]

I assume you don't have the 4pc, in which case you'd precast your Glaive Toss on single-target.