Protection legion Discussion

[Drkreven]

I have not had a extensive opportunity to test it yet guys, but from what I have tested thus far since the Beta servers came back online it seems "maybe" that our passive rage generation may have been modified in this build. I do not want to get anyone's hopes up to only have to crush them later so do not quote me on this statement as of yet. I will be running some tests within the next 24 hours to see if possibly our rage generation formula has been modified to compensate for the loss of the rage from reflective plating and dragon scales procs. I will post my findings if any on these forums, and the protection warrior beta class feedback thread if there are any to post beyond what we already know. If I am mistaken I will also be posting that as well to confirm it as to leave no question in at least my mind, and possibly others that I am mistaken and give others the opportunity to confirm my findings whatever they turn out to be. If any have already began testing it feel free to post here and save me and the time and effort.

[FenixAU]

Rage generated from damage taken is still 1 per 2% HP damage taken.

[Deleted]

Funny, nice to see you keep up with anything related to the expansion and do theorycrafting. Since.... you know, bonus armor is gone, jewelry doesn't give mainstat anymore so you can't get AP from them; meaning we have less sources of AP than any other xpac. You wanna talk more like you know what you are talking about to someone who has actually been participating in the thread and understands prot warrior? A lot of people who like the idea of tanking to be about mitigating damage as best as possible, it's disheartening when your best options defensively are offensive trinkets...

Have you played the game since wrath on? Yeah, scaling has been unfavorable for warriors for most of the time in the last 3+ expansions at top levels of play.

Also thought the part he bolded as a problem was pretty self explanatory.

On topic of equipment not giving main stats anymore. Please keep up with the changes.

Yes they drop without mainstat, but the reason for this is so you can re-spec faster(Healer>-<Dps, etc).
You enchant the cape, neck or ring to the main stat of your liking.
So we still have enough scaling, and the same amount of scaling we get just like any other expac.

[Drkreven]

I hate to say it only to be called "dramatic" I believe is the word most people have used to describe my posts, but if that is true FenixAU then there can be little doubt that they have ignored every single word we have said from day one about how horrible going to back to the rage from damage taken mechanic is going to be. That fact is not the worst part of it though because if they have indeed ignored everything we have been saying... then not only did they not listen to us, but they have such little respect for there player base and testers in general that not only did they not listen, (or in some way respond to our useful and viable feedback), but they then have clearly went on to nerf two of our artifact traits which were going to help us in at least some ways manage this horrible resource generation system.

[IKT]

I personally value utility very highly, and despite having played warrior in the past regardless I feel it's time to change because of it. We've gone from utility kings to having nothing truly worthwhile, and other classes have not only what we had, but better in a lot of cases (i'm looking at you demon hunter).

I don't like haste as a stat, no idea why, I know it increases how often I can hit things, increasing my rage, increasing the amount of AM I use, and also my damage, but I just prefer hit/exp/armor/dodge/parry/stam, I felt like I was clear on what each of those things did and they improved me so I became easier to heal passively? if that's a thing.

But I agree that one of the most hurtful things from MOP to Legion was taking away rally cry and skull banner and defensive banner, I felt like I could save the raid with those things, now it's back to being a meat shield.

I hope legion is good, I really do because the last time I had fun was the night before WoD's prepatch.

[Sting]

Well, there went the rage gain from the artifact. Fuck this expansion.

[Toppy]

This should all come as a surprise to no one. These are the devs who are quoted for saying "We don't ignore feedback, we disregard it" who are very well known for not listening to players on anything until release comes, at which point they act like all the problems were entirely unknown and came out of no where.

I've been saying it for awhile and will say it again. With how Legion is going, with each new beta patch tending to have more bad than good, with the dev interviews showing very clearly that there is little communication between teams at blizzard, with blizzards clear and ever present dismissal of feedback and concerns, with the devs complete and total inability to ever learn from past mistakes via their tendency to expand on the most unpopular features of past expansions

Legion is going to flop harder than WoD.

[Deleted]

I hate to say it only to be called "dramatic" I believe is the word most people have used to describe my posts, but if that is true FenixAU then there can be little doubt that they have ignored every single word we have said from day one about how horrible going to back to the rage from damage taken mechanic is going to be. That fact is not the worst part of it though because if they have indeed ignored everything we have been saying... then not only did they not listen to us, but they have such little respect for there player base and testers in general that not only did they not listen, (or in some way respond to our useful and viable feedback), but they then have clearly went on to nerf two of our artifact traits which were going to help us in at least some ways manage this horrible resource generation system.

alternative: they listened to complaints about the procrate for dragon scales to be to low to be a reliable source or rage, and listened to people who say spell reflect might be OP in pvp with many spells going around, and just removed them as a solution.

but yeah, getting yet another nerf/change out of the blue without a single word on devs thought processes since alpha started is getting quite tiresome.

[Toppy]

alternative: they listened to complaints about the procrate for dragon scales to be to low to be a reliable source or rage, and listened to people who say spell reflect might be OP in pvp with many spells going around, and just removed them as a solution.

but yeah, getting yet another nerf/change out of the blue without a single word on devs thought processes since alpha started is getting quite tiresome.

Counterpoint:

Increase the proc-rate and have no or lesser rage gain from spell reflect in PvP.

This is just blizzard disregarding feedback again. Its the exact opposite of what people were asking. Considering tanking in legion is turning out to be an unfun mess (for all tanks as the tank changes are almost universally hated by all tanks but druid), another unfun nerf was expected.

[Deleted]

Counterpoint:

Increase the proc-rate and have no or lesser rage gain from spell reflect in PvP.

This is just blizzard disregarding feedback again. Its the exact opposite of what people were asking. Considering tanking in legion is turning out to be an unfun mess (for all tanks as the tank changes are almost universally hated by all tanks but druid), another unfun nerf was expected.

those would be the obvious solutions yes. but blizzard often goes from one extreme to the other.

and it's not the exact opposite of what people were asking, its the exact opposite of what most people were asking. like you said, they disregard feedback except the ones they like.

[Toppy]

those would be the obvious solutions yes. but blizzard often goes from one extreme to the other.

and it's not the exact opposite of what people were asking, its the exact opposite of what most people were asking. like you said, they disregard feedback except the ones they like.

Since the main and ever constant complaint concerning prot warriors from the very onset of the alpha has been how ridiculous the new rage system is, with little to no steps being taken to defend this and blizzard even defending themselves despite other tanks saying this is stupid, I'm going to call it what it is:

Blizzard is doing the exact opposite of what people were asking.

[Deleted]

lol really you want to nitpick "most people" vs "people" and "they disregard feedback" vs "they disregard feedback they don't like and keep the ones they like"?

it's not hard to find people saying warriors are OP and should be nerfed in non-warrior threads. the grass is always greener on the other side afterall. and since blizz actually does listen to brewmasters and blooddks.....

[Cylunaria]

I don't like haste as a stat, no idea why, I know it increases how often I can hit things, increasing my rage, increasing the amount of AM I use, and also my damage, but I just prefer hit/exp/armor/dodge/parry/stam, I felt like I was clear on what each of those things did and they improved me so I became easier to heal passively? if that's a thing.

But I agree that one of the most hurtful things from MOP to Legion was taking away rally cry and skull banner and defensive banner, I felt like I could save the raid with those things, now it's back to being a meat shield.

I hope legion is good, I really do because the last time I had fun was the night before WoD's prepatch.

Oh I actually agree. I liked having stats that were defensive like dodge/parry/block etc. I just meant in terms of the stats we still have, I like haste.

[Ashenia]

Anyone was able to check if there was any hidden changes to the way we generate rage? Any rage from parry, block, more, less, same? I'm not able to get on Beta lately to do any proper tests these days.

I could understand Spell Reflect nerf, but nerf to Dragon Scales which gave me that extra bit to push that IP right after proc? That is harsh and stupid. Can't comment it differently. Made this trait falling down hard from top.

[Cylunaria]

Anyone was able to check if there was any hidden changes to the way we generate rage? Any rage from parry, block, more, less, same? I'm not able to get on Beta lately to do any proper tests these days.

I could understand Spell Reflect nerf, but nerf to Dragon Scales which gave me that extra bit to push that IP right after proc? That is harsh and stupid. Can't comment it differently. Made this trait falling down hard from top.

I wouldn't go that hard on it. I still think it's the best of the major traits, but yeah it sucks. No other changes were made from what I've played around with. Just a bit of fiddling around on world quests though while I waited for servers to stabalize a bit to finish DH campaign.

[Deleted]

I tested this on the PTR this morning. Warriors do gain fractional rage from attacks - if we take less damage than is necessary to give us a rage point, it counts toward the next point we would gain, so we still gain full rage from low damage attacks. However, if the fraction falls below a very low threshold, we don't gain even partial rage from it.

I walked outside my garrison and got in a fight with a bunch of mobs that dealt about 0.1% of my health per hit. After letting them beat on me for a while, I was down to about 70% of my health and had gained 0 rage.





I then fought some mobs that dealt about 0.5% of my health with each attack. After falling to about 70% of my health, I'd gained 15 rage.



So unless we're taking really trivial damage, we appear to gain full rage from attacks that don't deal enough damage on their own to grant us a rage point. Here's a link to the Imgur album with the above test images.

That isn't exactly what I was saying though.

Imagine before taking 4 hits from those mobs (let's say you take 3 hits), so before losing 2% hp, you're healed up to 100%. As far as I know, you're not getting any rage from that 1.5% hp damage you took before getting healed. Your test didn't confirm whether things really work like this or not.

I'll try to test it myself as well.

[Agromat]

That isn't exactly what I was saying though.

Imagine before taking 4 hits from those mobs (let's say you take 3 hits), so before losing 2% hp, you're healed up to 100%. As far as I know, you're not getting any rage from that 1.5% hp damage you took before getting healed. Your test didn't confirm whether things really work like this or not.

I'll try to test it myself as well.

I see. You're worried about a care where you take 1.5% health damage, are healed to full, then take another 0.5% damage. Do you get a rage point, or is the "damage taken toward getting a rage point" cleared after being healed to full.

I can't prove that it doesn't work that way, but I wouldn't worry about it.

First, healing doesn't affect our rage gain in any other way. It would be strange for it to apply in this niche scenario. Second, it would be extra work to clear the "damage taken" tracking variables in response to healing, for no appreciable gameplay purpose. Finally, it's such an edge case that even if it did work that way, it wouldn't have a statistically significant impact on our performance in relevant content.

[Invrlose]

Funny, nice to see you keep up with anything related to the expansion and do theorycrafting. Since.... you know, bonus armor is gone, jewelry doesn't give mainstat anymore so you can't get AP from them; meaning we have less sources of AP than any other xpac. You wanna talk more like you know what you are talking about to someone who has actually been participating in the thread and understands prot warrior? A lot of people who like the idea of tanking to be about mitigating damage as best as possible, it's disheartening when your best options defensively are offensive trinkets...

Have you played the game since wrath on? Yeah, scaling has been unfavorable for warriors for most of the time in the last 3+ expansions at top levels of play.

Also thought the part he bolded as a problem was pretty self explanatory.

Yeah, my bad, I forgot about bonus armour. Comparing mechanics in new xpacs to old stuff doesn't work. Looking at things in a vacuum is your first mistake. If warriors scale off of attack power, and a trinket gives attack power, it is therefore not an "offensive" trinket by definition, it's just an attack power trinket. Warriors will be fine and viable for every level of play, just like they have been for 10 fking years.

Yeah, scaling has been unfavorable for warriors for most of the time in the last 3+ expansions at top levels of play.

Spammable 1m+ shield barriers on heroic garrosh say otherwise. Warriors will be fine, stop crying that you can't cheese ignore pain by stacking stamina.

Also thought the part he bolded as a problem was pretty self explanatory.

If you're trying to make me cringe, congratulations, you succeeded.

[Deleted]

I see. You're worried about a care where you take 1.5% health damage, are healed to full, then take another 0.5% damage. Do you get a rage point, or is the "damage taken toward getting a rage point" cleared after being healed to full.

I can't prove that it doesn't work that way, but I wouldn't worry about it.

First, healing doesn't affect our rage gain in any other way. It would be strange for it to apply in this niche scenario. Second, it would be extra work to clear the "damage taken" tracking variables in response to healing, for no appreciable gameplay purpose. Finally, it's such an edge case that even if it did work that way, it wouldn't have a statistically significant impact on our performance in relevant content.

We are almost there, but I think we are not understanding each other because of how we understand the Rage generation formula.

From my understanding, it's calculated depending on your current health (a), minus, your final health (b) after taking some damage. Once that difference (a-b) reaches 2% of your max HP, you gain 1 Rage. (note that "a" and "b" are converted into percentages of your HP, so they are multiplied by 100/max health).

So if (a) = 76.5% and (b) = 75%, you essentially get no rage. Is the damage you just took "saved" somewhere to be taken into account on your next Rage generating hit? If so for how long? When does this reset? What is the smallest saved delta? Does getting healed up reset this delta (=> a-b)?

I guess, my assumption for the last question was yes. In that case, let's say after dropping to 75% hp without getting any Rage (because the attack was a 1.5% hp loss) you're healed to 81% hp, on the next hit, does (a) become 81%, without any memory of what happened prior to your heal? So Rage generation = (a-b)/2?

Or does the Rage formula become something like (a-1.5-b)/2?

[Invrlose]

On topic of equipment not giving main stats anymore. Please keep up with the changes.

Yes they drop without mainstat, but the reason for this is so you can re-spec faster(Healer>-<Dps, etc).
You enchant the cape, neck or ring to the main stat of your liking.
So we still have enough scaling, and the same amount of scaling we get just like any other expac.

There's no point using facts against somebody that insists on being ignorant.