Arms Legion Discussion

[Artunias]

I think the spec absolutely needs Heroic Strike baseline. And Focused Rage needs to be the talent that upgrades it to something stronger with a slightly different gameplay. You can't balance an off gcd gameplay against on gcd gameplay. One spec will either have way too much rage, or nowhere near enough. As we see on the current PTR for Arms.

[Valkaneer]

Those who are complaining about FR - I did the same in the very beginning of Legion. Then about two weeks in, I saw an FR Arms Warrior ahead of me with 280K while I'm struggling to sustain 220-230K - on every boss in a mythic dungeon. So, I decided to switch to FR. It takes no more than two weeks to master FR, with some people doing it in few days. FR makes Arms fun, Tactician is not fun ... I'm okay with FR or Heroic Strike. Both are cool mechanics to work with.

If you're complaining more about FR, then I can't think of anything else than you are a clicker and not a keybinder (seriously, if you are then that is an issue on your end), you're a keybinder but have limited keys (time to get a multi-button mouse like the G600 or new Corsair MMO mouse), you think FR/Heroic Strike are not fun (both are LITERALLY the same thing, rage dump), or you're just simply a hard-headed person that doesn't want to learn FR all-together and want to mash buttons without worrying about other things. I mean no offense to people who complain about FR/Heroic Strike, but Arms' fantasy focuses on doing insane ST DPS and FR/Heroic Strike makes sense.

Tactician is honestly not fun because of the heavy RNG - both on live and on PTR (especially with rage-cost increase on most abilities and dauntless nerf).

Getting tired of the brow beating going on here with the idea that if you don't like FR then you're a no skill trogg. How about people just don't like it? How hard is that to understand? How hard is it to undestand some people find it tedious? You like it, ok that's great, glad you're having a good time. There's a lot of warriors who enjoyed the old school style a lot more though, and feel this new FR warrior is not the direction we wanted to go. You like your option to play FR, well the rest of us would like the option not to have to play FR and not be 200k behind FR. There is nothing wrong with people being allowed to have options.

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PS: There are people who are good at FR and still hate it, just saying......

[Uriel]

So we now know that FR = HS.

HS has been a part of warriors since vanilla. Not liking FR/HS is like not liking autohit. HS was "on next meleeswing". Most 2handers had 2.x swingtimer. So no difference between push button>do damage a bit later. FR does the same. Push button> do damage a bit later.

In wrath Warriors had overflowing ragegain at a certain gearlvl. It was required to mash HS with other buttons just like ut is now. If you exclude tactician legion arms is closest to old school warrior since forever.

Why do you want to play warrior if you dislike basic warrior gameplay? Spamming offgcd skills with other attacks is core gameplay of warrior. Maybe another spec is more for you? At least right now it is required to maje legion warrior work.

[Holofernes]

Time to petition for the return of Heroic strike. Nerfing rage regen and turning us into 6.0 Arms would really suck.

focused rage is exactly the same as heroic strike. its a excess rage dump that has a low rage : dmg ratio.

[Katie45]

You mean simplify an already simple spec further stripping it from every thought process involved? Yeah i can see why some people would want that.

Or maybe people want attacks to be attacks, I am sorry but fr is shit, if you want a extra button it should be heroic strike, arms was fine with heroic strike.

[Anbokr]

focused rage is exactly the same as heroic strike. its a excess rage dump that has a low rage : dmg ratio.

While in the past I'd agree (and they are extremely similar concepts), they just aren't the same. The animation is everything to a lot of people, hence the strike, the actual attack. Not to mention FR is a stacking mechanic that buffs mortal strike whereas HS is a separate ability and attack in and of itself, and there is no stacking mechanic to worry about like with FR.

Very similar, but different. They might serve the same function (dumping excess rage), but they are still different.

Like some others have echoed, I really don't want to head back to WoD Arms, but that's definitely what the PTR feels like to me. The rage gen is absolutely abysmal. I'd rather have smooth rage gen with a baseline dump (HS) or hell just smooth rage gen with occasional overcapping than the situation on the PTR right now. I don't care about the numbers, just talking about the feel.

Still think the best way to tackle Arms would be to redesign deadly calm so we don't have this feast or famine playstyle, and then adjusting rage gen with that talent gone/redesigned; as opposed to just nerfing rage gen across the board and just further amplifying the feast/famine feel that comes with a talent like deadly calm. It's also the crux of the talent trio (FR/AM/DC).

[Valkaneer]

So we now know that FR = HS.

HS has been a part of warriors since vanilla. Not liking FR/HS is like not liking autohit. HS was "on next meleeswing". Most 2handers had 2.x swingtimer. So no difference between push button>do damage a bit later. FR does the same. Push button> do damage a bit later.

In wrath Warriors had overflowing ragegain at a certain gearlvl. It was required to mash HS with other buttons just like ut is now. If you exclude tactician legion arms is closest to old school warrior since forever.

Why do you want to play warrior if you dislike basic warrior gameplay? Spamming offgcd skills with other attacks is core gameplay of warrior. Maybe another spec is more for you? At least right now it is required to maje legion warrior work.

Really? From what I very clearly remember, HS did damage every time I used it. There was no time when I hit HS too many times and it became usless. 3 stacks of FR and you stop using it. You ONLY used HS when you had enough rage to do so ( this meant only in high rage regent timers and when you had more than 80 rage). You use FR at all times during your roation even when you have 25 rage. Slam much closer resembles HS fuction today not FR. I never charge and used HS ever. I never hit CS than HS directly after either because you did not waste rage unless were 100% sure you were going to have ample.

[Toppy]

I cant help but feel people who say heroic strike = FR either are new to warriors are just trying to be contrary for the sheer sake of it.

[Jazz015]

I cant help but feel people who say heroic strike = FR either are new to warriors are just trying to be contrary for the sheer sake of it.

I want my slam with cast time and use it to reset my swing timer for maximum effort. Can I get points for not being new to warrior and not be bashed in a condescending way? 8)

[Deleted]

FR isn't Heroic strike. But it is designed to do the same thing. Preventing you from capping rage. At it's current low rage cost state however it is used a little too often that it just feels you hit it more than you do slam. Litterally Slam 2.0
Still i think Deadly Calm has to stay. So when you are in a long rage drought where you can never hit FR. You still get those little moments you can go all out on it.

Nostalgia or not. FR feels it fits more into the "Arms" toolkit.
I don't like it. But i do not feel it needs to be removed either for the people that enjoy the style. Arms just needs more viable options.

[Wazooty]

FR took a burn extra rage ability and made it that plus a core rotational ability. I'm not sure if the devs intended it to be used as anything but to keep from rage capping, but it's more than that.

I enjoyed heroic strike, wish it would return.

[Atherions]

I have no problem with FR, i really like the playstyle. But some people here really don't like it for some reason. Everyone likes Heroic strike, because anything else would be blasphemy on the warrior forums. So bring back heroic strike, make FR a talented alternative, and keep our rage levels pre nerf.

[Valkaneer]

FR isn't Heroic strike. But it is designed to do the same thing. Preventing you from capping rage. At it's current low rage cost state however it is used a little too often that it just feels you hit it more than you do slam. Litterally Slam 2.0
Still i think Deadly Calm has to stay. So when you are in a long rage drought where you can never hit FR. You still get those little moments you can go all out on it.

Nostalgia or not. FR feels it fits more into the "Arms" toolkit.
I don't like it. But i do not feel it needs to be removed either for the people that enjoy the style. Arms just needs more viable options.

From Discords Warrior Google Doc - "Fill with Slam when above 32 rage". Sorry, it's slam that you use in the current game to keep from rage capping not FR. So again, "Slam" is much more today what HS use to be. No where will you find, "if your about to cap use FR", and why, because FR does nothing after 3 stacks.

[Atherions]

From Discords Warrior Google Doc - "Fill with Slam when above 32 rage". Sorry, it's slam that you use in the current game to keep from rage capping not FR. So again, "Slam" is much more today what HS use to be. No where will you find, "if your about to cap use FR", and why, because FR does nothing after 3 stacks.

Slam is a filler you use when you don't have any procs to use. FR is a rage dump you can use to convert excess rage into dmg. Go reread the arms compendium, you clearly missunderstood the role FR plays in the arms rotation.

[Holofernes]

I want my slam with cast time and use it to reset my swing timer for maximum effort. Can I get points for not being new to warrior and not be bashed in a condescending way? 8)

heroic strike was a on next attack. u spent rage (the rage the strike cost+ the rage you would get from the attack) for more dmg. It made a whitehit become a yellow hit. It was used very rarely in pve because of the rage cost (one whitehit + 20 rage for the strike itself) , and it even had bonus dmg on dazed targets in the good old times, which was useful in pvp sometimes. Another point was that it benefited from the 20 % bonusdmg to critical strikes talent that arms warrior had in classic.

My warrior was created in automn 2005, when wow was released in europe. I have top 50 arms warrior logs on 3 heroic bosses, and my rankings are between 90 and 99 % on every single nighthold boss except scorpion.

And still i stand up and tell you, fr and heroic strike is the same thing. Its even on the same key, that former heroic strike had: mousewheel up. Cleave is still mouswheel down, and i think it would be cool if it was on a separate gcd like fr.

Fr (or former heroic strike) for st nuke, cleave for ae nuke. thats what arms warrior playstyle was since classic and this is still the same.

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From Discords Warrior Google Doc - "Fill with Slam when above 32 rage". Sorry, it's slam that you use in the current game to keep from rage capping not FR. So again, "Slam" is much more today what HS use to be. No where will you find, "if your about to cap use FR", and why, because FR does nothing after 3 stacks.

U always use slam over fr in rage limited situations. If u dont do it, u got it wrong. Slam is the filler between cs+ ms. U stop using slam at low rage because it could possibly delay your ms, which is your most efficient rage spender.

Slam is still the easier slam from tbc, without the casttime and the hit timer managment.
And fr still does something after 3 stacks: it procs your selfheal, it procs tactian.

As an modern geared Armswarrior, u are often in a situation where u are about to rage cap, and cannot spent rage with slam (because of constant resets, with free execute procs and cs eating up your globals, so u will sit at 140/ 150 rage (depending on relics) and have precise strikes aktive, which means u WILL ragecap for a long period of a fight withhout having a off gcd ragedump. That is why fr is important: u can convert excess rage into dmg, selfheal, and more procs.

Slam has the problem that it needs globals. Its basically the poor mans choice, those who dont fill most of their globals with cs, ms, execute are to use slam instead. If u have rage left over, use fr.

Arms warrior on life really is a funny beast machine to play if u have good gear, and got the hang of it.

[Valkaneer]

Slam is a filler you use when you don't have any procs to use. FR is a rage dump you can use to convert excess rage into dmg. Go reread the arms compendium, you clearly missunderstood the role FR plays in the arms rotation.

Standard Rotation: (Read as a PRIORITY list)
CS when SD isn’t up
MS on cooldown
Fill with Slam when above 32 rage
Use FR to manage rage and fish for Tactician. This means you can use it while CS debuff is on the target and you have ~50 rage, and to dump rage before BC comes up.

As you can see out side of BC, Slam above 32 rage FR above 50 unless your preparing for BC or have higher than 50 rage. Slam above 32 rage is the priority over FR till 50 rage. 3 stacks of FR and it's usless till you have an MS to use it on. HS is always useable no matter when you pressed it so long at you had rage and a lot of it. HS was a skill you only used once you had the gear to produce the rage. FR you use no matter how crap your gear is. HS was a pure rage dump, not something you used to buff your damage in the lowest gear levels.

If you're almost at rage cap, you have 3 stacks of FR, MS & CS on CD what do you press? Not more FR, you slam. Same as HS, for something to count as a rage dump it's the thing you use to prevent capping. So that's not FR, it's Slam. I can agree FR is a rage manager, but it's not the rage dump.

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HS was expendable, you didn't use it at any time unless you had excess rage. Is that how you behave using FR? Not at all. So ridiculous to keep saying FR is the exact same thing as HS without the animation when it clearly is not.

[Holofernes]

Standard Rotation: (Read as a PRIORITY list)
CS when SD isn’t up
MS on cooldown
Fill with Slam when above 32 rage
Use FR to manage rage and fish for Tactician. This means you can use it while CS debuff is on the target and you have ~50 rage, and to dump rage before BC comes up.

As you can see out side of BC, Slam above 32 rage FR above 50 unless your preparing for BC or have higher than 50 rage. Slam above 32 rage is the priority over FR till 50 rage. 3 stacks of FR and it's usless till you have an MS to use it on. HS is always useable no matter when you pressed it so long at you had rage and a lot of it. HS was a skill you only used once you had the gear to produce the rage. FR you use no matter how crap your gear is. HS was a pure rage dump, not something you used to buff your damage in the lowest gear levels.

If you're almost at rage cap, you have 3 stacks of FR, MS & CS on CD what do you press? Not more FR, you slam. Same as HS, for something to count as a rage dump it's the thing you use to prevent capping. So that's not FR, it's Slam. I can agree FR is a rage manager, but it's not the rage dump.

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HS was expendable, you didn't use it at any time unless you had excess rage. Is that how you behave using FR? Not at all. So ridiculous to keep saying FR is the exact same thing as HS without the animation when it clearly is not.

do you even play a warrior? lol.

U DONT HAVE THAT MANY GLOBALS FOR SLAM. Its all cs, ms, exec.

a geared warrior goes for most of a bossfight: cs ms cs ms cs ms exe cs ms cs ms slam ms oh no proc? slam slam cs ms cs ms exe cs ms slam, while spending all the excess rage with FR.

Its only poor man`s warriors that uses slam that much (2*slam between ms is possible, (if u ever see a third slam between two slams in logs, u know that guy messed up) , if cs is not available and no execute ring proc is up). and those dont use fr that much outside of bc at all.

Best way to test yourself: count slam casts vs ms casts. Is the ratio 2:1, that means u have really bad gear. if its over 2:1 it means you have not understood arms warrior at all. if its 1.5 or less :1 it means u have awsome gear and know what you are doing.

[Bigbazz]

Are you using the exact same gear as your live FR build though? Pretty sure your stat weights would be very different for a Non FR build. I would not be surprised at all to see Mast and Haste almost the same in value in a Non FR build. If your walking around with 90 mast and 20 haste that might throw your numbers off.

Accounting for the 20% Mastery lost, losing Deadly Clams, not using AM and swapping to Ferver/MC you would see stat balance change with Mastery being closer to Haste, Crit might even be competitive as a stat with those talents too (not that those talents are a good setup, just a random example). But you have to take into account here that FR specs are quite considerably ahead on the PTR still, it's not the difference that fairly minor stat optimisation will make. Mastery is still strong for all builds Arms even after the nerf, even if it's not by quite as huge of a degree, it's still strong.

Currently we are aiming for Mastery + Haste/Verse on every piece, nobody has the benefit of just pure mastery everywhere anyway, anyone who is running Gloves also probably does have fairly high haste to begin with (I have 19% with gloves setup) since they are also running tier legs. Speaking of Legendaries, they are really what will play a larger role here as when rage becomes more valuable so do the Ring/Gloves.

[LazyCoding]

cs ms cs ms cs ms exe cs ms cs ms

In your dreams? ;D

[Deleted]

a geared warrior goes for most of a bossfight: cs ms cs ms cs ms exe cs ms cs ms slam ms oh no proc? slam slam cs ms cs ms exe cs ms slam, while spending all the excess rage with FR.

I am more than sure that we all want to see your logs now.