[Pre-Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Simplejakk]

Calling it right now, with the focus on healing up damage taken with the strike and the mastery = leech - DH tanks will focus on Crit rating to get more damage and thus more healing incoming. Also fits with wearing 2 blades since crit = parry, which also suggest they will get some passive or abilities that trigger with parry. Stacking crit is also a pretty offensive/aggressive thing to do which, again, fits Demon Hunters- if they are to tank.

As it sits now Haste is likely to become a completely worthless stat because "Pain" is the resource which might mean the resource is limited by damage taken + maybe some builder. Crit and Mastery will probably be the best secondary stats (apart from bonus armor) but Versatility wouldn't be all that bad since it increases damage and healing while also being a defensive stat.

The fantasy of DH tanking is, if nothing else, fitting of the mechanics and such that are in the game atm. I'm just curious on how it'll compare to other tanks- mainly DKs and Monks who are the other "non tank- tanks."

I'm not too sure about this..Crit>Mastery>Haste/Versatility is looking like the preferred stats for Havoc at the moment. Since Havoc is a little more fleshed out, I'm guessing that they'll tweak Vengeance to look for different stats. It would seem odd for both specs to want the same stats.

[Kyzawolf]

I'm not too sure about this..Crit>Mastery>Haste/Versatility is looking like the preferred stats for Havoc at the moment. Since Havoc is a little more fleshed out, I'm guessing that they'll tweak Vengeance to look for different stats. It would seem odd for both specs to want the same stats.

You say odd, I say GREAT. if you look, most hybrids have one or two stats that are top 3 for both specs, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's the way it was. With Mastery as it is today (chaos dmg and speed for havok, leech for vengeance) I'd likely be stacking that high regardless.

Being able to play both specs optimally shouldn't be a bad thing, in an ideal world every class would have 1 or 2 secondaries that are top for every spec.

[Roshar]

Pain(resource): Probably gained by taking damage or receiving attacks.

You inflict pain, not take it. They said Vengeance tanks were like Inquisitors, inflicting pain from abilities like Flame Whip, Fire Brand, Immolation Aura, etc. So unless the demon hunter tanks are into self-flagellation, they'll be inflicting pain on their target.

[Orloth]

And they've now removed the previously greyed out "class preview" button for DHs, here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/artifacts/

Looks like our next info dump will be when Beta launches.

[Deleted]

You inflict pain, not take it. They said Vengeance tanks were like Inquisitors, inflicting pain from abilities like Flame Whip, Fire Brand, Immolation Aura, etc. So unless the demon hunter tanks are into self-flagellation, they'll be inflicting pain on their target.

Why would they add two identical resources? No, I don't buy it.

[Roshar]

Why would they add two identical resources? No, I don't buy it.

Considering that's what they said word for word in the panel, that's their current direction.

[Deleted]

Considering that's what they said word for word in the panel, that's their current direction.

Well, you probably heard wrong then. I promise you they're not adding two identical resources that do the exact same thing. There's not even a small chance of that happening because it would be retarded. Mkay?

[Roshar]

Well, you probably heard wrong then. I promise you they're not adding two identical resources that do the exact same thing. There's not even a small chance of that happening because it would be retarded. Mkay?

Did you see the video? Because if so, then it's you that has a hearing problem, or a comprehension problem. Mkay?

[Deleted]

Did you see the video? Because if so, then it's you that has a hearing problem, or a comprehension problem. Mkay?

I did watch it and they still said nothing about pain being accumulated by dishing out damage. It will with 1000% certainty not be that. It's either charge up or it's accumulated through damage taken but it will not be accumulated through dealing damage because that's what fury already does. It's not even a matter of what they said at this point. Use your head! Why the fuck would they add two of the EXACT SAME RESOURCE?!?!?!

[Axerax]

Just so we're clear, this should be updated with information that will be relevant with information pertaining to Legion Tanks. Paladins no longer use Holy Power and instead SotR uses a charge system, among many other changes. We have to use Concecration to be able to do AoE damage with Hammer of the Righteous (Since Crusader Strike was removed).

Warriors Shield Block and Shield Slam do not both use Rage any longer, only one does, and it allows you to increase your mitigation while Shield Blcok is up. They also get Ignore Pain which lets them take 90% reduced damage as well as being able to use Spell Reflect during this for spell reflection.

The panels said Fury works like Rage, build and spend. But will be built in other ways than unlike warriors where it is just auto attacks and procs. Other specs are getting different resources, so why is having Pain as a resource so alien to people. Shamans use Mana and Maelstrom. Paladins use Nothing, Mana, and Holy Power. Shadow Priests use Insanity. So why is it so out of the ordinary that you don't think they would take that route when they are trying to make each spec different than carbon copy clones with a few adjustments that make them seem unique.

[Deleted]

I did watch it and they still said nothing about pain being accumulated by dishing out damage. It will with 1000% certainty not be that. It's either charge up or it's accumulated through damage taken but it will not be accumulated through dealing damage because that's what fury already does. It's not even a matter of what they said at this point. Use your head! Why the fuck would they add two of the EXACT SAME RESOURCE?!?!?!

logically,it should accumulate while taking damage.

[Axerax]

logically,it should accumulate while taking damage.

Fury - A hatred of something. Uncontrolled violence.
Rage - Both being hurt and hurting because whatever is in front of you isn't dead yet. Feel or express violent uncontrollable anger.
Pain - Being hurt causes agony, resulting in the desire to cause Vengeance. Punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong.

[xskarma]

Err, they might have just tried to call Vengeance resource "Pain" instead of "Fury" and changed their minds on it, and this 1 tooltip is just an old relic from when they had this version in builds.

We'll know soon enough with beta datamining. Expect constant changes to both specs as beta goes on. They'll keep tinkering with it until they don;t have enough time to make more changes, then polish it, ship it, then change it some more for the following patches to solve problems. It took months after release to get Monk in a decent enough place across 3 specs.

[Axerax]

Err, they might have just tried to call Vengeance resource "Pain" instead of "Fury" and changed their minds on it, and this 1 tooltip is just an old relic from when they had this version in builds.

We'll know soon enough with beta datamining. Expect constant changes to both specs as beta goes on. They'll keep tinkering with it until they don;t have enough time to make more changes, then polish it, ship it, then change it some more for the following patches to solve problems. It took months after release to get Monk in a decent enough place across 3 specs.

Maybe, did you get to try it at BlizzCon?

Personally I don't care whether it will be Fury/Pain/Happiness. Whatever they choose it to be, apparently leech will play an important role. Using no shield, not dodging, and not having a huge stamina pool just naturally leads most to believe it'll have something to do with taking damage and gaining it back through offense.

[xskarma]

Maybe, did you get to try it at BlizzCon?

Personally I don't care whether it will be Fury/Pain/Happiness. Whatever they choose it to be, apparently leech will play an important role. Using no shield, not dodging, and not having a huge stamina pool just naturally leads most to believe it'll have something to do with taking damage and gaining it back through offense.

No, I wasn't there, I only had Virtual Ticket to watch things.

I don't care much either about the precise name for the resource, as long as it's not too complicated to work with. The "Fury" mechanic they showcased and was seen in the streams of the 98-99 starting experience was working perfectly fine and looked intuitive enough for anyone that's played WoW.

Given you only choose spec at 99 and you only have 2 levels total to learn how to play the class, I doubt they'd only give you that 1 level to learn a new, or more complicated resource system than the "Fury" system we saw.

[Axerax]

No, I wasn't there, I only had Virtual Ticket to watch things.

I don't care much either about the precise name for the resource, as long as it's not too complicated to work with. The "Fury" mechanic they showcased and was seen in the streams of the 98-99 starting experience was working perfectly fine and looked intuitive enough for anyone that's played WoW.

Given you only choose spec at 99 and you only have 2 levels total to learn how to play the class, I doubt they'd only give you that 1 level to learn a new, or more complicated resource system than the "Fury" system we saw.

For all we know, pain could just be a stacking buff we get.

[Ironsquidlol]

There's a fairly large problem with "gain resource from damage taken" mechanics, though. Please take a glance at the history of Rage from Vanilla to Cata (? I don't remember when it switched over). for details.

I think we have two seperate versions of the Vengeance DH here. One was built on the self healing model, to be comparable to DKs, while the other was built on the idea of torturing your targets to weaken their attacks against you. There was some hint that Fury was unique to Havoc (during the panel talking about Havoc: "these guys have their own custom resource: Fury"), so Pain may simply be the resource for Vengeance. We inflict Pain with our fire spells, and spend Pain to make our opponents do less damage to us (or our allies) with disruptive debuffs. That sounds like a solid theme for a lightly armored, fel magic, tanking spec. The problem is that they hadn't nailed down the vision on that tightly enough to present it well. My theory being, because they had prepared for Blizzcon with the scrapped self-healing model that we see in the Demo and had to switch directions shortly before.

Maybe Pain is the "gladiator" version stance.

[doot]

Friend of mine clicked on [Mastery: Inner Demon] (the Vengeance one) at that spec selection thing near the end of the demo; it said 'Increases Leech by 14%' .

http://i.imgur.com/ovmoCnc.png
Source

I can see that working given the idea that they're like Inquisitors (i.e. torturers) deriving pleasure from the suffering of others and they say happiness is a good form of over the counter medication.

[Axerax]

I can see that working given the idea that they're like Inquisitors (i.e. torturers) deriving pleasure from the suffering of others and they say happiness is a good form of over the counter medication.

Lol. Watch Happiness be their resource XD

[doot]

Lol. Watch Happiness be their resource XD

They'll dump the resource bar and go with a hybrid of the DK rune system and the Boomkin eclipse and give us....