Idea to counter split raiding

[arr0gance]

Bug that guy who is doing WCL to finish his proposed wowprogress alternative.

Then have progression split between guilds which do splits and guilds which do not. After 2 months, combine the lists.

[Tkain]

Here is the thing. Encounters are balanced for a certain amount of gear in mind. If you don't get this because splitraids are not possible this means progress will take way longer or farm as soon as you get the items will be a redicoules joke.
Right now bosses die on mythic within 2-3 minutes while having alts in the raid. If that gets even quicker they can just spawm a few patchwerks every week as bosses stop working if you kill them to fast.


Currently there is one way to reduce the amount of splitraids.
Open only Mythic first or open them all at once. With the second option giving the 24/7 guilds an even greater advantage.
But this ether way would mean you balance the content for not having sets,trinkets etc. and you will have this enormes powerjump.

In my opinion the splitraids are no problem. If people want to do them they will find a way. If it becomes play on 3 accounts and play the same class 3 times it will be done. If you don't want to splitraid find a guild that doesn't.

Splitraids are a rare phenomenom of the top % of the mythic raiders. There are so many more easier to fix problems that affect a lot more people.

[Rioo]

I think forcing personal loot is the only realistic way. People might complain but I'm guessing most people currently running split-raids during progression will like the change since it effects every guild. I've never heard anyone in a top guild say they like running split-raids in the start of every patch, they just have to do it.

But yeah, since it only effects the absolute top and some lol guilds thinking they're pro I don't think we need to stop it.

[Nnogga]

I think forcing personal loot is the only realistic way. People might complain but I'm guessing most people currently running split-raids during progression will like the change since it effects every guild. I've never heard anyone in a top guild say they like running split-raids in the start of every patch, they just have to do it.

But yeah, since it only effects the absolute top and some lol guilds thinking they're pro I don't think we need to stop it.

Will only make it worse:

If you force personal loot on us we will just run 5 raids anyway and play the luckiest characters, 20 man account share. Nobody gets to play their own character, you won't ban anyway.
If you make loot eligibility account-wide we willst just buy more accounts.

[Tkain]

Why would we stop with personel loot ? We would just not have 3 alts of any kind and have 3 more of our main char and then take the best.
With personel loot that you have becoming tradeable this means in the second id you can min max a lot and still have a huge benefit from split raids.
To be honest this would hurt casual guilds more than top raiders. Think about not geting a 4 set on anyone for ages. While we have a 3-7 times higher chance of getting this.

[Deleted]

As Nnogga's posts highlight, split runs (or mirror runs in the event of forced personal loot) are a perhaps unfortunate, but nonetheless long since deeply ingrained part of the absolute top-end raiding community. Personally I think even worrying about it is absurd, and those who wish to run split clears should be allowed to run as many as they desire - we only harm ourselves by doing so, after all.

[arr0gance]

Rank in early progression means the most to guilds pushing the hardest for it. Guilds which split raid tend to fall into this group but as this thread evidences, this perception is not shared between all topend Mythic raiders so that's why I think having a guild tracking website which can give guilds the choice to "opt in" or "opt out" may help alleviate the issue. Guilds which normally would not do split raids may no longer feel compelled to do so since they can still compete against other guilds whom also opted out of split raiding.

After two months, the two lists condense into a single ranking since the effects of split raiding are all but eliminated once guilds begin farming Mythic bosses.

[Tkain]

Dude you can't have another race that doesn't splitraid. You will hit a wall very shortly into the instance. Every top guild can only clear the content so fast because they already have most 2 or 4 set boni, trinkets, weapons etc.

[arr0gance]

Dude you can't have another race that doesn't splitraid. You will hit a wall very shortly into the instance. Every top guild can only clear the content so fast because they already have most 2 or 4 set boni, trinkets, weapons etc.

One could argue that very wall would only exist if split raiding wasn't a thing...which is exactly why certain guilds would like to see it go away. It's a compromise solution which doesn't really fix the problem but at the very least gives the people for whom it matters the most the option to ignore it.

[Tkain]

actually when I think back to classic. Make every boss only drop 1 item and leveling even optimisied from 100 to 110 need to take 50+ hours then nearly every guild will abondon split raiding as benefits and amount of time investment are becoming so minimal or on the other hand have every boss drop every loot for everyone at once that would also completly eleminate splitraids. (no it wouldn't we would gear alts ^^)


Or you start an organisation that pays the guilds and enforces rules for the race with one of them beeing no split runs. Think of it as the uefa of raiding You might need deep pockets for this one.

[Nnogga]

One could argue that very wall would only exist if split raiding wasn't a thing...which is exactly why certain guilds would like to see it go away. It's a compromise solution which doesn't really fix the problem but at the very least gives the people for whom it matters the most the option to ignore it.

"We don't daytime raid"
"We only raid x hours a day/week"
"We don't split raid"
"We only count our own region"
"We don't class stack"
"We don't use Addons"

You can make yourself a nice little restriction bubble where you are world #1 but in the end all that really matters is who killed the boss first. A "No Split Raid" Ranking is not going to happen and i do not believe any serious top guild would acknowledge it.

[Rtrain]

I personally believe Split raids and the hardcore approach to raiding is burning a lot of players out. It's not fun, there's a large chunk of players who want to raids in higher-end guilds, there's not a lot of choices, and if you don't want to do multiple split raids, there's even less choices. Ignoring it isn't a "solution", it's just being lazy. This problem can be fixed or at least discouraged.

Little things like increasing rewards outside of raids can certainly help. Things like increasing rewards the earlier in the week you kill a boss could also be effective. There's plenty of small things that can be done to subtelty make splits less effficient.

If you want to kill split raids there's two ways I can think of to actually kill it:

Remove Heroic/normal loot locks. Yes, you'll have to clear heroic dungeon x times the first week, but you won't need to play alts and you'll be progressing your main character the entire time. This also helps guilds "catch-up" quicker, gives them an option to clear multiple times in a week, or just farm one boss if they desire. Or even help and raid with friends while still getting gear! There's a handful of positives and a handful of negatives with this option, and it still would make the 1st week grindy.

Make heroic lock-out share with your next week mythic lock-out. The group you kill the first boss with in heroic is locked together for the next week mythic run.(so you cap at 30 players to bring to mythic next week). This kind of force players to use the same group to clear heroics and mythic together. Your group in that current run can use any loot method they want, but if someone leaves and a new player joins the new player gets personal loot with untradable duplicates and is not added to the mythic lockout. The player that left and joined another group would get the same treatment. These really detours leaving a guild or kicking people from guilds(since one less person on roster for a week, or you have to take an entire week break to raid again)

[Nnogga]

Make heroic lock-out share with your next week mythic lock-out. The group you kill the first boss with in heroic is locked together for the next week mythic run.(so you cap at 30 players to bring to mythic next week). This kind of force players to use the same group to clear heroics and mythic together. Your group in that current run can use any loot method they want, but if someone leaves and a new player joins the new player gets personal loot with untradable duplicates and is not added to the mythic lockout. The player that left and joined another group would get the same treatment. These really detours leaving a guild or kicking people from guilds(since one less person on roster for a week, or you have to take an entire week break to raid again)

This is interesting. Quite restrictive though.

[arr0gance]

"We don't daytime raid"
"We only raid x hours a day/week"
"We don't split raid"
"We only count our own region"
"We don't class stack"
"We don't use Addons"

You can make yourself a nice little restriction bubble where you are world #1 but in the end all that really matters is who killed the boss first. A "No Split Raid" Ranking is not going to happen and i do not believe any serious top guild would acknowledge it.

All of this is very true and I suppose it helps further illustrate how the issue itself is almost entirely perceptional.

The actual effect split raiding has on the game is very small and I don't think there are any solutions which cannot be manipulated in some way or are not extremely detrimental to people who do not split raid.

[Rtrain]

This is interesting. Quite restrictive though.

Restrictive is not always a bad thing. Sometimes, you need to herd the sheep. I like this idea because it forces some parameters in top end raiding. Promoting a reasonable roster size(max 30) is a good thing.

People can keep chiming in that this isn't a reasonable thing to worry about, but I've always considered top-end raiding important for the entire wow community. A lot of players look up to higher end guilds/players and they have a huge impact on a lot of dedicated players. This split raiding thing has slowly trickled down the ranks and I don't expect it to get better if things don't change. Split raiding won't kill the highest end guild, but there are a lot of high end players who will get burnt out, lose interest, or try(and prob not find) a more casual guild that suits them.

[akris15]

Won't do much to discourage it but opening Mythic on day one could cause an interesting strategy call by those who are the worst offenders of this. Most likely though they will still continue to Split Run because of how the tuning of bosses generally are (ie in Hellfire most guilds who were highly skill but didn't split farm would wall out on Council and even with all the skill they had they couldn't meet the number checks).

The only other "solution" would be to lock Mythic raids for 3-4 weeks after release and right now I can see the pitchforks being sharpen for even suggesting that but it would be a solution.

[Deleted]

Just forcing personal loot for 2-3 weeks is the only elegant solution to the problem. People will hate it, though.

RNG Loot Distribution on Mythic Progression is the most awful Idea ever. Also, as has been said, with PL being tradeable, this would just change the splitraid paradigma to class/role/armor-mirror raids, making it an even worse experience. Also: All Healers/Tanks change their Loot affinity to DPS specs and tunnel those trinkets. lol

[Deleted]

Won't do much to discourage it but opening Mythic on day one could cause an interesting strategy call by those who are the worst offenders of this. Most likely though they will still continue to Split Run because of how the tuning of bosses generally are (ie in Hellfire most guilds who were highly skill but didn't split farm would wall out on Council and even with all the skill they had they couldn't meet the number checks).

The only other "solution" would be to lock Mythic raids for 3-4 weeks after release and right now I can see the pitchforks being sharpen for even suggesting that but it would be a solution.

I don't actually think top players would mind Mythic not coming out for 3-4 weeks after patch release. It'd mean multiple split raids were far less of a necessity, and guilds are already all-but gear-capped from HC when stepping into Mythic due to the massive amount of splits being run.

I actually think that the casual segment of the raiding scene would take more issue with it than the hardcore one.

[Isheria]

If you actually want to kill split raiding there is one elegant solution which goes like this:

- All loot gets removed as a drop and is now purchasable from a vendor.
- Bosses now reward tokens on kill based on their position in the instance to every member of the raid present on the kill.
- All tokens are not the same but instead are separated by number of wings in the instance. Wing 1 drops token type 1, wing 2 drops token type 2 etc.
- Earlier wing bosses reward less tokens than later ones with wing end boss rewarding the most.
- Each type of token can purchase loot from any boss of that wing but you can not purchase loot from bosses you haven't defeated on that character.
- Earlier wing boss items are less expensive than items from the later bosses. Wing end bosses have the most expensive loot.
- Looting tokens is on a weekly lockout.
- Purchasable loot is BoP and so are the tokens so you can't farm tokens on multiple characters and pass them to your main for example.

No RNG involved at all, no incentive to create multiple raids.

[Dracodraco]

RNG Loot Distribution on Mythic Progression is the most awful Idea ever. Also, as has been said, with PL being tradeable, this would just change the splitraid paradigma to class/role/armor-mirror raids, making it an even worse experience. Also: All Healers/Tanks change their Loot affinity to DPS specs and tunnel those trinkets. lol

Just want to correct what you're saying - loot will only be tradeable if it's a duplicate. This means that the alts needs to already have the item before it can be freely traded to a main. This is obviously not possible first reset.
If it was like you said with PL just straight up being tradeable, it'd literally just be loot as it is now, except having to go through the step of everyone who got an item trading it to the raidleader so he could masterloot them out. That's obviously not going to be how it works.