Challenge Dungeon - Loot

[Deleted]

Raiding is how they tell the stories, It's been a staple of World of Warcraft and it's not going away.

Of course not, this new 5-man dungeons sound like 5-man raiding to me.
Now the size of raiding groups might very well shrink in the near future if people fail to gather the current amount of people needed,

[Wildmoon]

Don't think of raid and dungeon as separate system. They are two different paths of the same progression system which is PvE. Harder content will give better loots. Mythic players will faceroll lower level CM because they have done harder content and gained rewards for it then they will eventually hit difficulty level appropriated for them. People who like to do dungeon will be able to progress further than they have ever been able to.

Ion said that there will be gear quality cap in CM so it means CM won't reward better and better gear with no end. The cap may be at mythic level gear. They are still figuring it out.

[nocturnus]

I believe this is their intention, Mythic raiders will raid and Nomral / Heroic will have the choice to do CM's, Raiding or both!

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Raiding is how they tell the stories, It's been a staple of World of Warcraft and it's not going away.

I too believe it's not going away. It's been WoW's unique selling point for so long, the devs are too blind to see it isn't holding up.

It's not the main way to tell stories though. Most are told in quests and dungeons.

IF dungeon progression will provide steady mythic upgrades, raids will die and they will do so very quickly. Even if the dungeons prove to be hard.

When that happens, we will actually have real competition lads. Not merely the handful of guilds that've rocked the top charts for ever.

[willemh]

They allready said that the dungeon-only path will only be viable for the current normal mode raider. For anyone above that level dungeons will just serve to complement their raiding (think of it like the 2-weekly garrison mission that rewarded raid quality loot, except now in the form of a weekly dungeon jackpot).

If any dedicated player believes he will not be required to raid next expansion if he doesnt like it he's going to be very dissapointed.

[Allenschezar]

If any dedicated player believes he will not be required to raid next expansion if he doesnt like it he's going to be very dissapointed.

And this is why i will stick with my old mythic guild most likely. But even if it turns out like this i think it is a step in the right direction and if it turns out that this version of CM dungeons is appealing to a large playerbase we might see a few changes in the future.

[Pieterman]

This is a shame though. That basically means you HAVE to raid, to reach the top in dungeons. Some groups might want to focus on dungeons only. Shouldn't they have the same opportunity to reach the top? It would be nice if challenge mode difficulties granted linear gear progression; difficulty 1= blue gear, 2= higher quality blue, 3= lfr quality, 4= normal quality, 5=heroic quality, 6= mythic quality.

You do have the same opportunity to reach the top. If you can obtain the same gear through raids as through 5 mans, you can get equally far with raiding gear. Obviously it's gonna be easier if you also spent a lot of time getting gear from raiding. Start of WoD I got my arena gear for PvE as fast as possible, put me ahead quite a bit.

If you spent the first 4 months exclusively doing 5 mans, then get into entry level raiding you'll also faceroll the raids. Don't act like raiders are the only ones that can get far in this.

[dejaa]

No MMO can reach WoW's level of complexity, imho.

Give it time. It took WoW many years to reach this level of complexity.

[Usagi Senshi]

If you just stick to doing CM 5-mans then there is no need for raiding as you'll eventually get the gear you need to progress from the CM. I'm having a hard wondering why people don't understand that. Raiding isn't needed at all for this activity.

[Allenschezar]

If you just stick to doing CM 5-mans then there is no need for raiding as you'll eventually get the gear you need to progress from the CM. I'm having a hard wondering why people don't understand that. Raiding isn't needed at all for this activity.

Of course raiding isn't needed to just do the CM's. But it is mandatory on a competition level like the leaderboards. That's what the initial thought was behind this thread.

[Deleted]

If you just stick to doing CM 5-mans then there is no need for raiding as you'll eventually get the gear you need to progress from the CM. I'm having a hard wondering why people don't understand that. Raiding isn't needed at all for this activity.

You are right but i think that is not what they are thinking about.
They seem to be wondering if they can or can not get full bis just from 5-mans without the need of stepping into a raid or not.

[SirBeef]

This is a shame though. That basically means you HAVE to raid, to reach the top in dungeons. Some groups might want to focus on dungeons only. Shouldn't they have the same opportunity to reach the top? It would be nice if challenge mode difficulties granted linear gear progression; difficulty 1= blue gear, 2= higher quality blue, 3= lfr quality, 4= normal quality, 5=heroic quality, 6= mythic quality.

It will just not that fast. Every time you successfully beat a timer you will get loot appropriate for that keystones level and upgrade and recharge that keystone. Completing the next level CM will give you slightly better loot. If you beat the timer your keystone will will upgrade and recharge again. Repeat the process until you cannot beat a timer. You will still get better loot than the previous successful attempt but will have an uncharged keystone. meaning you will have to beat that rank with no loot to upgrade and recharge it.

You can gear up like a raider and even deck your self out in a full set of mythic gear if you keep at it long enough. This is an alternate path of gear progression. Raiding will always provide the quickest means to the best loot. Now people who perfer 5 mans to raids have a viable option to grow their character power outside of raiding.

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Exactly. I was hoping to return to WoW with this feature. But since raiding is still mandatory, I'll stick to FF14.

Raiding is not mandatory it is just faster. Sorry you refuse to see it.

[Deleted]

You do have the same opportunity to reach the top. If you can obtain the same gear through raids as through 5 mans

I do not think this is gonna be the case; that would be a lethal blow to 20-man raidng

[nocturnus]

It will just not that fast. Every time you successfully beat a timer you will get loot appropriate for that keystones level and upgrade and recharge that keystone. Completing the next level CM will give you slightly better loot. If you beat the timer your keystone will will upgrade and recharge again. Repeat the process until you cannot beat a timer. You will still get better loot than the previous successful attempt but will have an uncharged keystone. meaning you will have to beat that rank with no loot to upgrade and recharge it.

You can gear up like a raider and even deck your self out in a full set of mythic gear if you keep at it long enough. This is an alternate path of gear progression. Raiding will always provide the quickest means to the best loot. Now people who perfer 5 mans to raids have a viable option to grow their character power outside of raiding.

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Raiding is not mandatory it is just faster. Sorry you refuse to see it.

You're right. It's not mandatory. Allow me to quote someone else to clear up what I meant:

Of course raiding isn't needed to just do the CM's. But it is mandatory on a competition level like the leaderboards. That's what the initial thought was behind this thread.

[Deleted]

It will just not that fast. Every time you successfully beat a timer you will get loot appropriate for that keystones level and upgrade and recharge that keystone. Completing the next level CM will give you slightly better loot. If you beat the timer your keystone will will upgrade and recharge again. Repeat the process until you cannot beat a timer. You will still get better loot than the previous successful attempt but will have an uncharged keystone. meaning you will have to beat that rank with no loot to upgrade and recharge it.

You can gear up like a raider and even deck your self out in a full set of mythic gear if you keep at it long enough. This is an alternate path of gear progression. Raiding will always provide the quickest means to the best loot. Now people who perfer 5 mans to raids have a viable option to grow their character power outside of raiding.

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Raiding is not mandatory it is just faster. Sorry you refuse to see it.

I would love you to be right in what you are saying, but i am afraid it is not gonna be like that.
If what you are saying is true, raiding participation rates are gonna be in their historical minimum.

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Raiding is not mandatory it is just faster. Sorry you refuse to see it.

It would be mandatory for the competition, not mandatory for the gearing progression.

[nocturnus]

I would love you to be right in what you are saying, but i am afraid it is not gonna be like that.
If what you are saying is true, raiding participation rates are gonna be in their historical minimum.

Isn't this a clear sign that the community prefers small group content? Why force 20 man content down our throats, when most* people prefer 5 man content.

*this is purely speculative. But based on overal raid participation, it's a fair assumption.

[Deleted]

Isn't this a clear sign that the community prefers small group content? Why force 20 man content down our throats, when most* people prefer 5 man content.

*this is purely speculative. But based on overal raid participation, it's a fair assumption.

Lol like if i had any doubt that the community prefers small group content.
That did not stop them from killing 10-man raiding on top progression; i am just saying they are totally against anything that goes against their 20-man raiding, that is why i doubt they will give same level gear in 5-mans as they give in 20-man raiding.

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I think the issue is not so much with gear ilvl but rather that you will have to raid to get to the top levels for tier sets and raid trinkets. Inversely, if any of the dungeon bosses has a solid trinket, raiders will have to do CMs to get that trinket (and climb the tiers to get it at a higher ilvl). Let's face it, tier sets and raid trinkets are a disproportionate part of our character power.

If someone fully geared from these 5-man dungeons is gonna be a joke, in terms of for example DPS, compared to someone fully geared from raiding, then these 5-mans are gonna be a total failure.

[nocturnus]

Lol like if i had any doubt that the community prefers small group content.
That did not stop them from killing 10-man raiding on top progression; i am just saying they are totally against anything that goes against their 20-man raiding, that is why i doubt they will give same level gear in 5-mans as they give in 20-man raiding.

Yes, yes, I never meant to suggest you don't share my views I'm just saying it's clear what most players want; why not grant it? FF14's success, I believe, is partially due to its comfortably small group size for raiding.

[WowProphet]

Why do people seem to think they can talk for the community? I know far more people that enjoy raiding over small group content. I personally enjoy both with maybe a slight preference to raids due to the complexity. The strange thing to me is that even tho my experience is very much positive towards raiding I would never assume to speak for the communities preference, why are so many people comfortable doing this?

[SirBeef]

The issue is that dungeons would become so popular that raiding would be marginalised. What I can't figure out is why this would be a problem?

Blizzard apparently wants to keep raiding alive, even if a large part of the community might prefer a different recipe.

Raiding is not that popular to begin with. It is just the only means for end game. Now there are multiple options, the adventure mode style hourly, daily, weekly quests, CMs, and raiding. All give a chance at raiding quality gear. Although raiding will be the most effective, CMs next, and the repeatable quests the least.

[Deleted]

Yes, yes, I never meant to suggest you don't share my views I'm just saying it's clear what most players want; why not grant it? FF14's success, I believe, is partially due to its comfortably small group size for raiding.

Agreed, but we have to wait and see. if @sirbeef is right they are just starting 5-man raiding, but if @Nymrohd is right then these dungeons are not gonna be an alternative route to gearing.