[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Deleted]

People crying with no basis for it is not good enough reason to change their minds. Once beta starts they can start changing things if they suck but there is no way of knowing till then.

What you seem to be completely ignoring about our mastery is that we will not be balanced around 100% mastery effectiveness, we will be balanced around 70% at worst and 30% at best. This means that when people are actually properly stacked we should be doing more healing than everyone else.

If shamans followed your assumptions about holy paladins they would litterally be useless, no one would use shamans if they are only on par with other healers when everyone is at 10% hp.

I agree with your post, but

-> I think you're giving Blizzard too much credit. Simply put, I doubt any developer thought about the fact that paladins are not immune to melee mechanics when writing

"The niche of the plate-wearing holy crusader is well established in Paladin gameplay, with one key exception. Whether Paladins are mitigating enemy attacks, aiding their ailing allies, or delivering punitive justice, it’s in their nature to serve in the thick of the battle. But while Holy Paladins possess the heavy armor and strong defensive ability themes, in practice they spend most of their time behind the frontlines with the more fragile healers. In addition to shoring up the identities of Protection and Retribution Paladins, we’re adjusting Holy Paladin gameplay to bring them closer to the front, where they belong."

-> It took a lot of time for Shamans to get to the point they are now in. Besides the multiple buffs to their base healing and mastery %, they had the unique 10% Ancestral Vigor. I seriously doubt even when the entire raid is stacked on top of paladins, you will outheal a shaman simply because of how powerful their stacked array is. Now when you spread the groups...

->Its not like we gain that mastery on top of our current toolkit. IH ,which is the one thing that carried paladins in MoP, is gone. If right now we would 1-1 change the masteries, we would lose a significant part of our output.

->None wants to deal with the class with "special niches" when it doesn't help you. Enhancement and Elemental shamans got abandoned this expansion for example. None(at a hardcore raiding level) is going to want a healer that needs X conditions to perform , and the majority of Blizzard developers are not actually hardcore players, so they don't really understand that being sick on the first boss doesn't actually help your class on the last.

[Glorious Leader]

Not really sure why they consider light of the martyr an incredible powerful mobility tool. Paladin healing is still going to be very movement constrained.

[Deleted]

If the crappy mage in the corner needs a big heal, you heal him. That's it. it doesn't need to be "fixed" it's not as strong a heal on one raid member for one heal. If said mage is going to be off in Africa regularly for some reason they you might discuss who's job it will be to heal him.

I specificly said the mage is standing on the edge of the healing rain. that's 5 or 6 yards in this example you quoted. So if we loose a huge amount it's a bad design. But like i explained further i'm expecting a fairly big 100% zone. So we actually have something to gain when we stack.

[nightfalls]

-> I think you're giving Blizzard too much credit. Simply put, I doubt any developer thought about the fact that paladins are not immune to melee mechanics when writing (snip)

Sadly they probably didn't which is why we're now getting radio silence. "Oh, shit, you're right Paladins didn't just stand in the back because they felt like it, we forced them there..."

-> It took a lot of time for Shamans to get to the point they are now in. Besides the multiple buffs to their base healing and mastery %, they had the unique 10% Ancestral Vigor. I seriously doubt even when the entire raid is stacked on top of paladins, you will outheal a shaman simply because of how powerful their stacked array is. Now when you spread the groups...

I think a big question is, how much mastery effectiveness WILL we be balanced on? For instance no mastery is a flat % multiplier anymore, except Holy Priest (which is still somewhat conditional). So all of them require some work to get the optimal effect, so I highly doubt they'll all be balanced on the same % effectiveness(*).

->Its not like we gain that mastery on top of our current toolkit. IH ,which is the one thing that carried paladins in MoP, is gone. If right now we would 1-1 change the masteries, we would lose a significant part of our output.

I'd imagine this has to be taken into account when it comes to balance(*). Same for other classes that have changing mastery (for instance druid is no longer a flat % multiplier so its value is likely going to go down, which means base abilities need to be increased).

It also might be why we can't read into "moderate" vs. "strong" vs. "huge" too much. If some classes have more throughput CD's than others, then perhaps that's why the base abilities are weaker(*).

->None wants to deal with the class with "special niches" when it doesn't help you. Enhancement and Elemental shamans got abandoned this expansion for example. None(at a hardcore raiding level) is going to want a healer that needs X conditions to perform , and the majority of Blizzard developers are not actually hardcore players, so they don't really understand that being sick on the first boss doesn't actually help your class on the last.

I have to wonder what the niche is. Is paladin now the "stack healer" that shaman used to be? Still Beacon transfers? Or is it just a pile of half-ass at everything.

(*) Again this is Blizzard we're talking, so we can never say never...

[Rorschachs]

^

Guess things sound different when it's Aladya speaking. I thought you liked the mastery.

[Floopa]

^

Guess things sound different when it's Aladya speaking. I thought you liked the mastery.

the mastery is fine.

expecting to keep IH when DA is getting removed borders insanity.

expecting to have ranged immunity because your mastery focusses on making you a better player borders insanity

accept your spec is really fucking insane right now and it needs to be nerfed hard.

disc is likely to be limited to a dungeon spec and/or farm spec unless the numbers are absurd and the spec does the same HPS as other healers while contributing damage w/o ever stopping or causing 'risk' (in that other healers can provide damage, but will contribute 0 hps in the mean time). consider yourself now competing with monks, resto druids, resto shamans and holy priests: the world isn't so bad when you consider the fact the spec you're currently playing (in WoD) requires 0 thought and 0 skill. at least blizzard are giving you the option of being a better player - that's a good thing

[Clrg]

requires 0 thought and 0 skill.

Like all the class and spec in the game.

[nightfalls]

^

Guess things sound different when it's Aladya speaking. I thought you liked the mastery.

And I never said the opposite. I guess reading comprehension is difficult

[Rorschachs]

the mastery is fine.

expecting to keep IH when DA is getting removed borders insanity.

expecting to have ranged immunity because your mastery focusses on making you a better player borders insanity

accept your spec is really fucking insane right now and it needs to be nerfed hard.

disc is likely to be limited to a dungeon spec and/or farm spec unless the numbers are absurd and the spec does the same HPS as other healers while contributing damage w/o ever stopping or causing 'risk' (in that other healers can provide damage, but will contribute 0 hps in the mean time). consider yourself now competing with monks, resto druids, resto shamans and holy priests: the world isn't so bad when you consider the fact the spec you're currently playing (in WoD) requires 0 thought and 0 skill. at least blizzard are giving you the option of being a better player - that's a good thing

What healer requires thought or skill anyways? Outside of MWs no healer spec even has a bit of complexity. Even MWs rely heavily on good Revivals rather than playing well overall.

Also nobody wants to sacrifice fun/fluid gameplay for complexity. The spec doesn't need a shitty mastery to not be braindead.

[Supliftz]

What healer requires thought or skill anyways? Outside of MWs no healer spec even has a bit of complexity. Even MWs rely heavily on good Revivals rather than playing well overall.

Also nobody wants to sacrifice fun/fluid gameplay for complexity. The spec doesn't need a shitty mastery to not be braindead.

As it's already been said multiple times in this thread. Hpal numbers are obviously not intended to be balanced at 100% effectiveness out of your mastery. You can see evidence in this with MM class trinket. IIRC it's balanced around ~50% effectiveness.

Oh yeah, you're also encouraged to stack up because of shit like efflo/HR/essence font/vivify/prayer of healing/etc. So you're going to get good usage out of your mastery on most fights. If there's like 1-2 fights where you don't, talent beacon of the lawbringer.

[Deleted]

the mastery is fine.

expecting to keep IH when DA is getting removed borders insanity.

expecting to have ranged immunity because your mastery focusses on making you a better player borders insanity

accept your spec is really fucking insane right now and it needs to be nerfed hard.

disc is likely to be limited to a dungeon spec and/or farm spec unless the numbers are absurd and the spec does the same HPS as other healers while contributing damage w/o ever stopping or causing 'risk' (in that other healers can provide damage, but will contribute 0 hps in the mean time). consider yourself now competing with monks, resto druids, resto shamans and holy priests: the world isn't so bad when you consider the fact the spec you're currently playing (in WoD) requires 0 thought and 0 skill. at least blizzard are giving you the option of being a better player - that's a good thing

You don't even know the numbers classes do, the mechanics of the bosses ,the positioning of the raid,or have any clue in general and yet you come to this forum with " the mastery is fine". There's plenty of bosses where the mastery wouldn't be fine on progression this very tier(no, not 1-2), not to mention this expansion but being clowny for you is expected. You're probably the worst player in this game, dying to the very first ranged only mechanic every fight and yet you have the nerve to talk shit.

My post is my view of how I see the class's position and perspective based on the developer insight and on the actual abilities presented. Your post is a bunch of bullshit like ever, because all you ever do is go into the forums of paladins and priests and let loose your lack of knowledge.

[Rorschachs]

He is just really salty about Priests and Paladins and thinks approving of shitty design ideas on forums will keep these classes shitty.

As it's already been said multiple times in this thread. Hpal numbers are obviously not intended to be balanced at 100% effectiveness out of your mastery. You can see evidence in this with MM class trinket. IIRC it's balanced around ~50% effectiveness.

Oh yeah, you're also encouraged to stack up because of shit like efflo/HR/essence font/vivify/prayer of healing/etc. So you're going to get good usage out of your mastery on most fights. If there's like 1-2 fights where you don't, talent beacon of the lawbringer.

Mandatory talents are not a good thing and if I am going to use a talent to work around my mastery then why make the mastery a thing in the first place?

[Supliftz]

He is just really salty about Priests and Paladins and thinks approving of shitty design ideas on forums will keep these classes shitty.



Mandatory talents are not a good thing and if I am going to use a talent to work around my mastery then why make the mastery a thing in the first place?

You act like you're the only class with mandatory talents for certain encounters.

Mistweaver is forced to talent soothing on the move for fights like blackhand.

[Floopa]

You don't even know the numbers classes do, the mechanics of the bosses ,the positioning of the raid,or have any clue in general and yet you come to this forum with " the mastery is fine". There's plenty of bosses where the mastery wouldn't be fine on progression this very tier(no, not 1-2), not to mention this expansion but being clowny for you is expected. You're probably the worst player in this game, dying to the very first ranged only mechanic every fight and yet you have the nerve to talk shit.

My post is my view of how I see the class's position and perspective based on the developer insight and on the actual abilities presented. Your post is a bunch of bullshit like ever, because all you ever do is go into the forums of paladins and priests and let loose your lack of knowledge.

tell me how this mastery is bad then. tell me which fights in HFC this mastery would be your worst stat on (excluding iron reaver/hfa which i admitted it would suck on). i would love to know how bad this mastery is compared to say, oh i don't know, gift of the serpent because from my position as someone who actually has no agenda this mastery is pretty awesome.

actually let me do it for you!
kormrok - everyone is within 20 yards of each other on thsi fight, not ideal for paladins but good enough so that you'll most likely get 60-80% efficiency from your mastery. you'll get 100% efficiency healing melee/tanks due to beacon of the lightbringer.
hellfire council - everyone is stacked, mastery works wonders here
kilrogg - ranged are stacked, melee are stacked. take beacon of the lightbringer and get 100% efficiency from your mastery
gorefiend - everyone is stacked during the healing intensive part of the fight, for the rest of the fight paladins are as strong as any other spec - actually stronger because of how absurd flash of light is (obviously will be nerfed so that's good!)
iskar - ranged is stacked, melee is stacked. again. pretty good mastery!
socrethar - another fight where both ranged/melee are stacked... another good for your mastery
velhari - ^
fel lord - ^
xhul - hmm, people aren't actually stacked on this weird fight. i guess mastery wouldn't be super insane here but it's still likely going to be better than versatility for hps output so it's not as bad as it can be (hint: gift of the serpent is worse than versatility, offering 1/3rd of the hps per point)
manno - idk this is dumb you're stacked here too
archimonde - the mastery would not be 100% efficient here. damn u got me

so the mastery is amazing on the majority of encounters and sucks on the first 2, and isn't "omg this is providing 100% efficiency" on archimonde.

if mastery is so bad do what MWs do, gear for other stats. crit, haste, versa, spirit. they all exist. broaden your horizons!

it's also ironic you talk about "perspective" when you were certain paladins would go OOM with a 50% increased cost to holy shock which... i disproved? sorry to be the voice of reason pal but we both know paladins are disgusting in HFC and could literally take a nerf to 15-20% of their healing and they would still be a top tier healer. maybe you should spend a tier on the level of holy priest to understand how lucky you are? ^^

[Deleted]

I talked about knowledge not perspective. You don't know things but act like you do and most of the time you're wrong, but only ever remember the right parts. You don't know what that other talents you can select instead of that beacon talent, the range that our mastery is % effective, the positioning of the tank who will have beacon relative to the raid, the effect of the artifacts choices on us, or anything actually, but sure do like to ^^ a lot. I know you also do progression after tactics are sorted and there are videos out, because sometimes you don't start doing blackhand by doing circles around for example.
The only reason Holy Priest were on that level was the option to heal as disc.

[Floopa]

The only reason Holy Priest were on that level was the option to heal as disc.

yea holy priests are awesome it's just disc holding them back

ROFL

i love you man, you make me laugh <3

lets be honest here aladya we both know pallies will be OP in every patch so there's no need to worry

[Pasture]

the mastery is fine.

expecting to keep IH when DA is getting removed borders insanity.

expecting to have ranged immunity because your mastery focusses on making you a better player borders insanity

accept your spec is really fucking insane right now and it needs to be nerfed hard.

disc is likely to be limited to a dungeon spec and/or farm spec unless the numbers are absurd and the spec does the same HPS as other healers while contributing damage w/o ever stopping or causing 'risk' (in that other healers can provide damage, but will contribute 0 hps in the mean time). consider yourself now competing with monks, resto druids, resto shamans and holy priests: the world isn't so bad when you consider the fact the spec you're currently playing (in WoD) requires 0 thought and 0 skill. at least blizzard are giving you the option of being a better player - that's a good thing

You're such a troll.

You know this mastery isn't a 'good' mastery, nor does it fit at all with the Holy Paladin healing toolkit.

You're just obviously very bitter about the last expansion and the fact you were out-healed.

[Floopa]

You're such a troll.

You know this mastery isn't a 'good' mastery, nor does it fit at all with the Holy Paladin healing toolkit.

You're just obviously very bitter about the last expansion and the fact you were out-healed.

this mastery's amazing. i would take this over IH as a MW (w/o ranged immunity).

do you want gust of mists? i think every MW in the world would gladly take this mastery from you.

[Deleted]

No clue why Aladya feeds the Floopa-troll, you should know better than this.

[Unir]

I agree with your post, but

-> I think you're giving Blizzard too much credit. Simply put, I doubt any developer thought about the fact that paladins are not immune to melee mechanics when writing

"The niche of the plate-wearing holy crusader is well established in Paladin gameplay, with one key exception. Whether Paladins are mitigating enemy attacks, aiding their ailing allies, or delivering punitive justice, it’s in their nature to serve in the thick of the battle. But while Holy Paladins possess the heavy armor and strong defensive ability themes, in practice they spend most of their time behind the frontlines with the more fragile healers. In addition to shoring up the identities of Protection and Retribution Paladins, we’re adjusting Holy Paladin gameplay to bring them closer to the front, where they belong."

-> It took a lot of time for Shamans to get to the point they are now in. Besides the multiple buffs to their base healing and mastery %, they had the unique 10% Ancestral Vigor. I seriously doubt even when the entire raid is stacked on top of paladins, you will outheal a shaman simply because of how powerful their stacked array is. Now when you spread the groups...

->Its not like we gain that mastery on top of our current toolkit. IH ,which is the one thing that carried paladins in MoP, is gone. If right now we would 1-1 change the masteries, we would lose a significant part of our output.

I have thought that all along. Considering the importance of that question, if they had actually thought of it and intended to provide immunity to ranged mechanics they would have said so. Given that when asked that question Celelstalon kept pointing to Beacon of the Lightbringer, it seems they have no intention of providing that immunity.

... so this idea of "standing with the melee" or even running around to improve range to people is basically nonsense. We will be standing with the ranged camp like we always have.

I'm also not sure where the idea that we stack all the time has come from. Fights in HFC are essentially either spread, 2-camp, or stacked. Spread and 2-camp this mastery would be less than fully effective. The only actual stack points I can think of are in:

Council (mostly, off and on depending on the mechanic)
Kormrok (sort of, it's a mix)
Gorefiend feast phase (basically pointless anyway, since we aren't great raid healers there)
Socrethar (everything past phase 1)
Tyrant (in parts)
Archimonde (in parts)

Feel free to correct me on those, as I'm doing that off the top of my head based on the strats that we use. I also ignored HFA, as you can bandage your way through that. That is basically half or so of the fights in current content where, for some portion of the fight, our mastery would be fully effective. The other half of HFC and all the non-stack phases in the above, our mastery would be less than fully effective by some unknown amount. I have no reason to believe they are suddenly going to start designing raid encounters differently, so that is probably as fair a representation as any.

Is that a bad thing? It's hard to say without more information, but it leads me to wonder what is intended for optimal play. In other words, what are they intending good players to do with this that sets them apart and gets them better performance? What is their design intention? The cynic in me says their design intention was poorly thought out: to simply offer an alternative that makes Beacon of Faith less appealing, without proper attention to issues like these. So far it looks like the only gameplay choice created by this is going to be Lightbringer or not Lightbringer, and enjoy your variable healing output otherwise.

I also think the devil will be in the details, like the range calculation and how this is balanced. If, for instance, at 40 yards mastery contribution is 0%, mastery may end up being a bad stat for us on many fights. If, however, at 40 yards mastery contribution is 50% it would be much better.

If it is all balanced assuming a constant 50% mastery contribution, as someone suggested, that too makes a big difference. Balancing that way it may not be bad at all. If it is balanced assuming a constant 100% contribution from mastery (i.e. they ignored this issue), it could be much worse.

There are some other interesting issues buried in this. As an example, outside of a pure stack situation tanks will almost never get the full contribution of mastery unless you take Beacon of the Lightbringer. That is at odds with our perceived role of strong tank support.

Big caveat: All of this is based on the limited information we have at this point. More information will allow for better analysis. This may all turn out to be fine or even strong as some suggest, but there is a lot of opportunity here for it to be not fine.