Is it okay to tell pug's that they play a difficulty that exceeds their skilllevel?

[ComputerNerd]

They were at 675-680 ilvl give or take.


Their low dps is one thing. It can easily be gear issues, but their were not badly geared. As stated above 675-680. But its not as much their dps I was pointing at with skill.

Its more the mechanics they failed. The warrior especially failed at every mechanic in the instance and thus died over and over. That has nothing to do with the gear but about player skill/experience.
Also there was only one doing an interrupt, guess who that was? me.

They might be new players, but the attitude from especially the warrior is not something that encourage me to give them a good piece of advice.



I can easily start a 5-man group and have done so several times before. In this case I chose to join an existing group.
Was it a good idea? probably not, but that is not relevant to the question of the topic.




Generally I have no problem joining mythic dungeons with people that are not overgeared for it. I have no desire to only play among "equally-geared" players.
But when I join a mythic dungeon I expect those that queue for it, to at least know the basics of the instance and the boss fights. But it could be me who is just wrong...

Part of the problem could be the opportunity to learn those mechanics.
Certainly in some cases it is a player problem, rushing through content in the name of efficiency without thought as to the impact on those who should be learning from it.
If players are not going to get the opportunity to understand mechanics in lower difficulties, how are they going to be prepared for mythic.

[anaxie]

You're goddamn right. This is important

[kamuimac]

Question is: Do you think its okay to tell players that they are too bad at playing the content that they are (their gear was fine enough for it), or is it me being an elitist asshole? I tried to be polite, but I could not help myself pointing a finger at them, even if most others would have left and forgotten all about it.

no its not ok - if they are there it may be their source of progress - if you dont like numbers of pace just leave instead staying to the end just so that you can justify being a dick - if they compelted dungeon they are playing difficulty intended for them if it was you group and they were not performing enough you should have replaced them - if it was their group you should have left and made your own one instead being a dick.

for all you know it might have been their first time in that dungen they might be freshly dinged lv 100 who were there to learn and progress through that dungeon.

this is very big problem with mythic raiders that they judge others based on their skills/experience when they forget that in 99 % cases they are in top 1 % of playerbase top dogs etc etc forgeting that most playerbase neither have hteir skills not wants to have them - maybe for them mythic dungeons are their goal in game.

this problem will escalate much much more in legion and there will be a lot of drama and elitism die to possiblity of geting keystone depleted.

[Shiroh]

Constructive critisism is a good thing. But that warrior doesn't sound like someone who would listen to advice.
With that attitude I would just tell them, that they aren't up to it and leave the group. You basically carried 2 horrible people through content that isn't meant for them, removing their incentive to improve. And that's not good.

[Cwimge]

Tricky position, OP. I'd just say leave, explain if you like but the group won't take it well, ever

[munkeyinorbit]

After trying to help people in this game multiple times i simply realized this:

Its a waste of time, nobody listens..EVER (Well thats a lie...One day in the end days of WoTLK i met some Tauren Warrior that listened, said that as a lawyer he didnt have time to L2P properly).

The younger ones dont listen because they believe they are awesome and amazing cause they compare to their also terrible at the game friends, the older ones literally give me answers like "I am just here for a bit to escape my family and job problems bla bla bla"

I simply tell them how god damn horrible they are at the game and proceed to play until they either kick me or not, 9/10 times they dont since i am a tank and they have to wait forever if i leave and i am usually carrying their asses.

It doesnt happen often, 9/10 times i dont bother saying anything but some players are simply unbelievably bad and i cant keep silent.

I cant believe you've been playing since wrath and you don't know that 9/10 times if you get removed as a tank, your wait is actually a lot longer than the group who kicked you. A new tank literally pops up within seconds almost every time while you're stuck with the 15 minute dungeon CD. The one that prevents you from queuing for another dungeon if you leave before the first 15 minutes and if the dungeon is not cleared. Its pretty hilarious that you did not know that which proves the point that just because your ilvl is high doesn't mean you know anything about the game. I'm not even surprised that no one listens to your advice when it's probably wrong in the first place.

All I can say about what mmo calls bads is that I don't care. I'll carry them to the end, take my valor and find another group. No need for hysterics. I dont care if it takes 10 minuites or 40. I'm playing a game and if that means that my bar is 4 times the size of everyone else's, thats fine.

[Deleted]

You're just unlucky with getting really bad players. 10-15k dps? I did that much in Highmaul LFR at ilvl 612 and I felt bad doing less DPS than my main did at level 90 in prepatch... :/

When mythic dungeons came out in patch 6.2 I ran them several times, setting the ilvl requirement at 665 or 670. Didn't got too many overgeared players because these mythics were meant primarily as an alt catchup. Main characters had no business in them, but most people that signed up knew the mechanics. We didn't had issues clearing these dungeons with 670 ilvl average in the group. Occasional wipe here or there, majority of them due to trash overpulls, but these were few and far between.

Now with the introduction of valor (and myth dungeons being the most efficient way to earn it, housing about 50% of your total weekly "cap") you can see and expect a lot of overgeared raiders in them. People expect to get carried and think they'll get away with playing like shit. I wanted to throw my screen out of the window after being unable to finish Everbloom 3rd time in a row. First the fucking pixel perfect shortcut to first boss which barely saves any time (in fact it makes it longer most of the time) and players still being stubborn to use it, then the second boss and lack of dispells & interrupts - boss just stays at full HP and slowly whittles down the party. We wipe, people leave, rinse and repeat 2 more times. I still haven't completed Everbloom for this week and I think I'll pass. 300 valor isn't worth this much frustration.

Meanwhile there are better groups that clear these dungeons smoothly. But they are either full guild groups that do not appear on premade finder, or require absurdly high item level. I'm 717 Hunter atm with curve, yet still majority of decent myth dung groups are outside of my reach. 720, 725, 730+ "zerg" groups are commonplace. So I'm stuck with the shit ones, containing players wearing Wild Gladiator 700ilvl gear and doing 16k DPS single target. These latest patches gave us ways to rapidly gear up our chars even from scratch up to about 700 (Ashran for few hr, come out with good pile of 700 gear) but these clears aren't any smoother than they were at 660 ilvl.

[Socialhealer]

when i pug mythic i join 715+ 720+ 725+ groups, the higher the better ofc.

not really had any issues.

[Deleted]

I would give them a chance to improve first, giving them some guidance on what I see they do wrong. If they don't improve during the dungeon, I would leave.
There is a reason there is mythic dungeons and heroic dungeons (and even LFR)

[Sykol]

If people are doing poorly at WoD after a year of nothing but this content, I hesitate to say they're ready for video games in general.

[Sills]

Typically I just bite my tongue and grind it out. Most things in game are not worth causing any type of fuss over. Don't want to make anyone feel bad and such. If it's really, really bad, then I'll just quietly slip out. Thankfully, I haven't had to do that yet this expansion.

[Deleted]

I am not there for their entertainment so i will probably tell em to leave. Since i am probably the best player they meet that day. Most of the group will agree with me.

[Morbownz]

Maybe Mythic dungeons should require PG Gold?

[Gaidax]

Question is: Do you think its okay to tell players that they are too bad at playing the content that they are (their gear was fine enough for it), or is it me being an elitist asshole? I tried to be polite, but I could not help myself pointing a finger at them, even if most others would have left and forgotten all about it.

And what's the point of telling a pile of trash that it's trash? Would it suddenly turning it into gold? No it won't... it will just stink harder.

Just do your thing and be done with it, thankfully as a DPS you should be able to carry Mythics just fine or just leave.


I personally do either way, if I see that the DPS are shit, but the tank and healer are at least doing the minimum required - I stay. If tank/healer are shit, I leave, not worth it then.

Only rarely I really say something, like when things are so hilariously bad that I kinda feel like saying something.

[Javox]

I think it's fine if they're causing serious issues. Like if they do something stupid that only leads to their death, then leave it. If someone screws up or they're holding everyone else back, then that's a problem. I'm not usually the type of person to call others out though unles I'm super pissed, so the most I would do is kick or just leave.

But man, PuGs are pathetic. I've been trying to PuG the moose since I'm only 11/13H (13/13N) and not in a raiding guild. Holy shit, I am having the worst time. One group I was in was stuck on the summoners before Mannoroth. Out of the 15 or so dps, 3 of us were doing more than 40k and the rest were around 10k.

I ended up getting kicked because when I got the debuff (can't remember what it's called; don't want to look it up), I ran into the green pool to take it off, and someone else with it ran into my range. We both died, and then the group wiped for an unrelated reason. Someone called out everyone who got the debuff and we all got kicked.

[Deleted]

i just leave when i've got enough fails , i try to explain to some tanks to make it simple but people dont listen even the easiest shit of "dont stand in the fire"
sometimes one is not focused to be performing normal and just sucks there and here
i remember joining a guild group for hfc hc , and when we reached soc hc i told them i didn't knew how to use the robot
the other tank and a few people said "you use it doesn't matter" went to read what i should be doing with the robot and before i even started reading the pulled, clearly a wipe and i got kicked and insulted

Maybe Mythic dungeons should require PG Gold?

the problem is PG doesn't mean shit

[Deleted]

It took me way too long to realise I shouldn't be trying to teach other people to play video games, I'm enjoy the game a lot more now that I have finally realised this. There are plenty of groups out there who are competent, so I'm not going to stick around in groups where people don't understand the basics.

I think Yes it is ok, but I don't bother as I don't expect anything to improve

[kamuimac]

But man, PuGs are pathetic. I've been trying to PuG the moose since I'm only 11/13H (13/13N) and not in a raiding guild. Holy shit, I am having the worst time. One group I was in was stuck on the summoners before Mannoroth. Out of the 15 or so dps, 3 of us were doing more than 40k and the rest were around 10k.

pugs are ok with the lv they play on - its you people who are failing to see that you play way above average skill lv - the ones who are pathetic are you for comparing yourself to them - its as if a university math student went into 4 graders class and started to make fun of them for not being as good in math as he is. its you who have ridiculously high stnadards and partially blizzard for making game harder and harder to cater only to your alike.

[Deleted]

pugs are ok with the lv they play on - its you people who are failing to see that you play way above average skill lv - the ones who are pathetic are you for comparing yourself to them - its as if a university math student went into 4 graders class and started to make fun of them for not being as good in math as he is. its you who have ridiculously high stnadards and partially blizzard for making game harder and harder to cater only to your alike.

The door swings both ways.
I agree that it is foolish to expect every player to have the same experience as mythic raiders and thus comparing PuG's to these are pointless.
Many PuG's are playing at their skill level. But there are some that plays above their skill-level, which was what I was aiming at. To take your example, its like a 1st grader skipping 2nd and 3rd to go directly to 4th. I really sit back with the thought that some players skip the normal mode HFC and goes directly to the HC HFC (or skip HC dungeons and goes directly to mythic). Yes I know that HC dungeons are next to pointless (save the daily VP), since baleful gear is just better and faster to get. But this should still be the path of progression, where you learn the dungeon, before stepping up to mythic.

And what's the point of telling a pile of trash that it's trash? Would it suddenly turning it into gold? No it won't... it will just stink harder.

They probably did not care at all what some random guy told them, so there was zero benefit from my statement. So from a rational point of view it was pointless. But we do not always act rational; sometimes we get carried away with our feelings and do or say things that are irrational.

[Mercane]

probably because almost every time i have done this i have been met with nothing but hostility

i don't even try

90% of players are not even worth the fucks that i actually have to just give out like they are free vouchers or something.

I've learned the hard way not to give criticism if it isn't asked for, no matter how bad that particular player might need it.

Any time I've noticed a glaring error in someones rotation, output, or survivability, any comment I've made is met immediately with outright hostility- even if it's something as inocuous as 'hey- that swirl on the ground during <mechanic> means you should probably move'. If I find myself in a PUG that appears like it's going to struggle, I either gracefully make my exit or decide if I want to spend the next 45 minutes to an hour with these people. Honestly, it all boils down to how the group is, if their talkative and having a laugh- i'll stick around. If it devolves into that finger pointing 'we wiped because... kick them', I just head out.