[Balance] Legion Discussion

[stormgust]

Yes, and your complaint stems from DPS output -- to which "tuning is easy." So long as the mechanics are fun, the tuning will follow.

There is no guarantee that the range of values in which a mechanic will be balanced, and the range for which a spell will be fun to use are going to have more than an tempty intersection. Sure, for most mechanics it's going to work out fine (and I think it should for out fine for balance), but it would be nice if people actually are aware that tuning is far from being easy, and whence check wether a mechanic can be tuned within a reasonable range. Otherwise we'll only end up with neccesarily untertuned mechanics post tuning phase.

[Juvencus]

Do we have any video of the animations for the new stuff?

Purifier Beam confirmed.


sorry I had to :3

[huth]

The empowerments are there because SS dmg would get out of control really fast since it is such a small portion of our dps. Having said that, I agree 100% it should affect all spells that costs AsP, but there is no need to remove the empowerments from our mastery. Maybe they could make SnF/MF consume empowerments from SS so that dots actually benefit from our mastery.

Just trying to find a way to solve the DoT issue with that one, really. I think it's clear something needs to be done about that if we don't want to get stuck with a 3 button rotation.

I do not like the idea of ​​watching a bunch of WA icons.

In my opinion they should remove starsurge and add us spell that enhances next spell with power of Astral. So we can use it then we need it most.

Er... that's exactly what Starsurge does. You're basically asking to remove Starsurge and immediately add it back.

[xtramuscle]

How about: Targets affected by Sunfire take more Solar Wrath damage. Casting Lunar strike on a target makes the next moonfire splash to targets within 8 yards for 8 seconds.

Would make 1 dot more relevant in a single target scenario. During aoe we'd free up some globals to allow us to cast lunar strike and actually focus dps, instead of just maintaining dots and starfall.

[Cyous]

There is no guarantee that the range of values in which a mechanic will be balanced, and the range for which a spell will be fun to use are going to have more than an tempty intersection. Sure, for most mechanics it's going to work out fine (and I think it should for out fine for balance), but it would be nice if people actually are aware that tuning is far from being easy, and whence check wether a mechanic can be tuned within a reasonable range. Otherwise we'll only end up with neccesarily untertuned mechanics post tuning phase.

Mechanics should always come first. There is a reason we moved away from 1-button rotations (Fireball, Shadow Bolt). The damage of a spell is still important, but I stress that mechanics of the rotation need to be fun. It's easier to change a few numbers than design an entirely new mechanic.

[dark666105]

Mechanics should always come first. There is a reason we moved away from 1-button rotations (Fireball, Shadow Bolt). The damage of a spell is still important, but I stress that mechanics of the rotation need to be fun. It's easier to change a few numbers than design an entirely new mechanic.

Figured this is why we are focusing a lot more on mechanics and how fluid and fun they feel rather than is something viable to use in a rotation based on damage right now.

[Alame]

Mechanics should always come first. There is a reason we moved away from 1-button rotations (Fireball, Shadow Bolt). The damage of a spell is still important, but I stress that mechanics of the rotation need to be fun. It's easier to change a few numbers than design an entirely new mechanic.

So what about FoE makes it a unique and interesting mechanic? The barest essentials of the mechanic are consume AsP to deal AoE damage. That's the same niche as Starfall. The only differences between the two is that FoE deals more damage, (partly by nature of being a level 100 talent, partly by nature of not also having a DoT-amplification effect) has a much smaller area, and consumes AsP differently (at a constant, much faster rate instead of a steady, pre-set cost.)

Compared to Collapsing Stars which was unique in the toolkit as an AsP-consuming super-DoT, and cooldown replacement.

The scenarios you're talking about combining various talents to super-nuke with FoE/LS/SF/etc were already possible, they're also possible if you let Starfall zones stack (which between the cost relative to generation & AsP cap is entirely reasonable) which you could add as a feature of Stellar Drift if it's too powerful for baseline. These scnearios aren't enabled by FoE, they're just made better because FoE does more damage than Starfall and works better as an AoE, AsP-consuming nuke. It's not a property of FoE as a mechanic that makes these possible, it's the class toolkit and the resource pool/dump style as a whole.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of FoE. What I don't like is giving up Collapsing Stars to get it, for reasons ranging from clashing with the core rotation & design, to loss of diversity in our toolkit, to stupidly small AoEs.

Edit: Hell toss Nature's Balance out and give us Collapsing Stars back. NB is easily the least interesting talent on the tier

[lappee]

The barest essentials of the mechanic are consume AsP to deal AoE damage.

The barest essential of any damaging ability in wow is "Press button to deal damage". With that logic we should remove all mechanics because they're essentially the same thing, makes sense rite?

Talents are there to enhance our toolkit and FoE does just that as long as its stronger than Starfall within moment of opportunity.

[dark666105]

Purifier Beam confirmed.


sorry I had to :3

I do really like the "orbital laser" animation of FoE. WoW Hammer of Dawn.

[Cyous]

I do really like the "orbital laser" animation of FoE. WoW Hammer of Dawn.

(That is exactly what it is.)

[Alame]

The barest essential of any damaging ability in wow is "Press button to deal damage". With that logic we should remove all mechanics because they're essentially the same thing, makes sense rite?

Talents are there to enhance our toolkit and FoE does just that as long as its stronger than Starfall within moment of opportunity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[Madus]

Edit: Hell toss Nature's Balance out and give us Collapsing Stars back. NB is easily the least interesting talent on the tier

Yep, i wonder why NB is still in game it was pointless and notpicked since implementation... CS could be atleast interesting in pvp, what cannot be said about FoE.
Slowly getting to point when moonkin will have nothing new and interesting in legion, only passives and UI tracking changes .

[Cyous]

Yep, i wonder why NB is still in game it was pointless and notpicked since implementation... CS could be atleast interesting in pvp, what cannot be said about FoE.
Slowly getting to point when moonkin will have nothing new and interesting in legion, only passives and UI tracking changes .

It's the idea of taking on as much complexity as you want (read: more active buttons). NB doesn't offer complexity. FOE does. Stellar Drift doesn't.

[lappee]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
I know how to link too

[Madus]

It's the idea of taking on as much complexity as you want (read: more active buttons). NB doesn't offer complexity. FOE does. Stellar Drift doesn't.

From pvp point of view all 3 doesnt. And i dont care if FoE stay here or not, what i see as fail is that there is not enough of new or interesting things at all, only old things recolored with new names...

[Cyous]

From pvp point of view all 3 doesnt. And i dont care if FoE stay here or not, what i see as fail is that there is not enough of new or interesting things at all, only old things recolored with new names...

That's fair. Buttons are similar, yet they added more secondary effects. Most are passive, but we're pretty loaded on baseline buttons.

[Madus]

That's fair. Buttons are similar, yet they added more secondary effects. Most are passive, but we're pretty loaded on baseline buttons.

With smart enough design you could have same amount of baseline buttons with different mechanic. But this is blizz trying to sell old rehashed/recolored/reintroduced things with zero new mechanic at all. With that pace of changes what they are showing now, its pretty understandable, that they are not able to come with anything new...

If i dont count clunky moon spells there is like single thing interesting and its fearie swarm as a new kind of defensive cd. Everything other is just old stuff.

[huth]

From pvp point of view all 3 doesnt. And i dont care if FoE stay here or not, what i see as fail is that there is not enough of new or interesting things at all, only old things recolored with new names...

I would question if we really need lots of all new things, or if making the existing ones work properly would be sufficient.

[dark666105]

It's the idea of taking on as much complexity as you want (read: more active buttons). NB doesn't offer complexity. FOE does. Stellar Drift doesn't.

Maybe if they added the effect of that pvp talent into it where dots had a chance to give you empowerments. Kinda wish dots had some interaction with something whatsoever. I like the procs from the last 2 boomkin iterations.

[Nythiz]

Compared to Collapsing Stars which was unique in the toolkit as an AsP-consuming super-DoT, and cooldown replacement.

I personally kinda agree with this.

I don't think FoE is necessarily a bad replacement. But I do think that CS had a more unique purpose.
The main thing I probably dislike about FoE is the harsh ArP requirement.

I guess CS was very prone to either being worthless or very OP very quickly though. FoE probably suffers a bit less from that.

Maybe if they added the effect of that pvp talent into it where dots had a chance to give you empowerments. Kinda wish dots had some interaction with something whatsoever. I like the procs from the last 2 boomkin iterations.

I still think Shooting Stars should be baseline. The moonkin DoTs feel extremely dull.
And in certain scenarios (e.g. PvP fights / extreme mobility fights) it is really hard to get AsP as you can't always just stand and hard cast. And we can't passively regen Starsurge stacks anymore.
I feel a baseline Shooting Stars would solve a lot of those issues, especially if you consider that they are basically taking that away from WoD.