[Balance] Legion Discussion

[huth]

The other stats are as linear as int, it's not like crit suddenly gives less or more dps on its own after you already have some. The reason int is so low is because we get so much of it in comparison to secondaries and then there's concordance on top of that.

Actually, crit gives diminishing returns.

[Hellshout]

Int is linear, all others are not. Int always ends up at the bottom eventually.

Charm also has some usability issues, particularly on the more movement intensive fights.

Well I'm thinking Charm for ST bosses, for AoE I will use UA. I think and hope I can find 20 seconds on peace to use that trinket.

Regarding stats, Haste for example should start having DR when SW gets under 1 second and by the time LS reaches 1 sec, then SW is wasted a lot, right?
Mastery should be as linear as Int, straight up damage. But mastery is limited to what it gives, Int gives to everything.
And even if the scaling is like that, 2600 x 1 Int > 1150 x 1.16 Mastery.
But i guess the issue with the trinket is the Haste DR. 4P + Trinket means a lot of wasted time waiting for GCD. Prolly that's why it sims lower. Gonna try to find some non haste gear and see if I can up those numbers.

Thanks for listening to my rambling and correct me if I'm wrong.

[Deleted]

Actually, crit gives diminishing returns.

The only point where it gives diminishing returns is when you reach the 100% cap due to any extra effects. Every point of crit will give the exact same amount of dps/hps if you dont change any other stats. If you do 100 dps and add 1% crit you will now do 101dps, if you instead have 50% crit you will do 150dps. Every 1% crit gives an extra 1 dps.

[Polarthief]

Actually, crit gives diminishing returns.

Crit suffers no DRs. It either gives 1% of DPS per 1% of Crit or gives 0% of DPS if you're already at 100% (through other effects).

For the record: The reason it's such a weak stat for us is because we have not a single bonus effect from Crit, such as extra damage, effects, or anything. Its value slightly increased for ToS due to 2p (Starsurge crits do 20% more damage), but that's our only bonus from Crit and it's still 3rd.

[Deleted]

The only point where it gives diminishing returns is when you reach the 100% cap due to any extra effects. Every point of crit will give the exact same amount of dps/hps if you dont change any other stats. If you do 100 dps and add 1% crit you will now do 101dps, if you instead have 50% crit you will do 150dps. Every 1% crit gives an extra 1 dps.

Pretty much this. To expand a bit, the DPS increase is the same per point, which means the percent increase in DPS is less the more you have of a stat. To use the same example as above, if you do 100 dps with 0% crit, getting 1% crit is a 1 dps increase and a 1/100 = 1% dps increase. If you have 50% crit (so your dps is 150) getting 1% crit is still a 1 dps increase, but it is only a 1/150 = 0.67% dps increase. In other words, the increase relatively to your damage will be smaller the more you have, but the exact increase is the same.

Haste has a ton of exceptions to this, since it doesn't reduce the CD of our spells, it doesn't affect dot duration (but reduces both cast time and increases number of ticks, thus dmg) and has a softcap at 60% (SW + starlord hits GCD cap) and 100% (1.5s cast time spells and instant casts hit GCD cap) and many other things. For all intents and purposes I would recommend just ignoring that unless you want to get real deep into theorycrafting, and instead simply think of it the same way as crit in the example above. Mastery is much the same, it also has a lot of exceptions.

This is why having a balance of secondary stats is often better than having all of it in one stat, and why you will often see very different numbers when simming your own character vs. what might be recommended in the guides.

Keep in mind that all of the following is simplified a lot.
If you want another math example, consider the formula:
DPS = INT * (1 + crit) * (1 + vers) * (1 + haste) * (1 + mastery)
With 100 int, 0 secondary stats and 0 base mastery it would look like this:
DPS = 100 * 1 * 1 * 1 * 1 = 100
If we gain 1% crit, it would look like this (and the same with vers, haste or mastery):
DPS = 100 * 1.01 * 1 * 1 * 1 = 101
As you can see, no matter what stat gets 1% it is a 1 dps increase (int aswell)
Now, if we instead start with 50% crit:
DPS = 100 * 1.50 * 1 * 1 * 1 = 150
Crit is still 1 dps increase, however, vers, haste, mastery and int will now be a 1.5 dps increase:
DPS = 100 * 1.50 * 1.01 * 1 * 1 = 151.5

To answer the question about why INT is now worse than most of your secondary stats when it was the best of the start of the expansion, it's pretty simple. The amount of INT on gear scales way better with ilvl than secondary stats. As you can see from the formula above, if your int is way higher than your secondary stats, the secondary stats will become better than int.

[Gemini Soul]

Has there been any sim work done with the T2 NC traits?

[Hellshout]

snip.

Makes sense.
Thanks for the clarification guys.

[silkworm]

Well I'm thinking Charm for ST bosses, for AoE I will use UA. I think and hope I can find 20 seconds on peace to use that trinket.

You don't need full 20 secs. You gain the buff as long as you stand still and NOT lose it if you move. Simply it stays at whatever stack it is. And continues to increase if you stand still again. So ideally yes you need to stand still for 10 secs at least to get the full buff but even if you move its not completely wasted.

[Lahis]

That 4p T21 bonus is so underwhelming.

Will we be better off with just using 4p T20 with 2p T21?

[PowerGamez]

That 4p T21 bonus is so underwhelming.

Will we be better off with just using 4p T20 with 2p T21?

I was thinking about this the other day. I am going to miss T20 so much when we're not using it. The larger energy pool as well as the haste from SS/SF makes the spec so nice to play. These two things should be made baseline.

[MV Kaa]

I was thinking about this the other day. I am going to miss T20 so much when we're not using it. The larger energy pool as well as the haste from SS/SF makes the spec so nice to play. These two things should be made baseline.

Would be suprised if they didnt nerf t20

[Lahis]

Would be suprised if they didnt nerf t20

Would be typical. Instead of fixing T21 to be worth anything, they'll just destroy the set with usable bonuses.

[Kluian05]

I suspect any underperforming T21 will get buffed once the raid is released, while overpowered T20 (in conjunction with T21) will be nerfed. This is what they did when ToS was released.

[MV Kaa]

I suspect any underperforming T21 will get buffed once the raid is released, while overpowered T20 (in conjunction with T21) will be nerfed. This is what they did when ToS was released.

They seem perfectly fine with classes using old tier and losing out 20+ ilvl.

[Miraclous]

They seem perfectly fine with classes using old tier and losing out 20+ ilvl.

But you can just endlessly go back for that hope to roll titanforged, who doesn't like that?

[Kritkin]

I recently got Emerald Dreamcatcher, and I'm noticing that sometimes I'll cap on charges of empowerment and have lots of astral power. Is it better to go ahead and Starsurge again? Or drop a starfall on the boss to buff my dots too and dump the AP so I'm not wasting it? Thanks

[Irefusetodie]

I really hope they change our T21 4pc. It's like a 1.5-2% DPS increase for ST assuming 100% uptime which flat-out won't happen. The DPS increase on AoE depends entirely on whether you can moonfire adds or not. It's just a really bad set bonus design.

[xtramuscle]

light or shadow on relics?

[Lahis]

Shadow tends to lean more towards damage?

[huth]

I'd say it's largely dependent on the specific options you got. Hard to make a general statement.