Norway: Children taken from parents on grounds of "radical christianism"

[Lockon Stratos]

As far as I know the children were saying/singing something very inappropriate which someone reacted to and notified the authorities, I do not know what that might've been but it's the same thing as finding out about arranged marriages or other "culture traits" that we do not support as they are proven to break human rights and so on.

This doesn't have anything to do with the "right wing" prime minister we have now, I'm a left wing person myself- teacher. We notify all kinds of alarm signals to the authorities, it's not strict at all- 99% of the things reported are dismissed, if whatever the authorities discovered while investigating was apparently enough reason for a change of environment for the kid(s).

To paint you a picture, if a child of a family grows up to be in bad social circles (drugs, crime, underage pregnancy/alcohol intake etc) then social services in Norway will keep an eye on the younger siblings in that family and if they see things they dislike they'll step inn and make changes- "worst case" move the child from the parents. Sounds horrible but it's to secure the child the best possible future, may not even be anything wrong with the parents. Can be as simple as the friends of the child are having issues that influences the kid. Like I said, change of environment.

Imagine this, middle-eastern family circumcises their daughter- horrible thing to do. Take the daughter away or not?
Christian family teaches their kid values that are not welcome in the modern world (radicalism basically), take the kid or not?

People should be happy there's such a government agency that looks after the well being of kids, even if it means they can't stay with their family.

I bet you don't do that with muslims, do you?

[Mihalik]

Pentecostals are some the craziest of the bunch, it may as well be child abuse to raise children in a faith where idiot preachers think they're healing people's cancer by putting their hand on their heads, and get bit by snakes and die.

Rant aside, I hope they had an actual legitimate reason to take these children, because singing a song is probably not one of them.

I have a feeling all this has something to do with this. The kids were probably talking about some batshit crazy Pentecostal crap, like faith healing or they were "speaking in tongues".

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

From my American point of view, whatever grounds Norway may think it has is rather shaky to me.

If you were at some friends house and the kid of the family whispers to you: "My dad beats me." or something like that, or if you see someone beating their child or you hear someone talking about marrying their child to some other family (arranged marriage). What would you do? call the police?

Well in Norway we call Barnevernet, Protective Service for kids basically. (Social Services iirc in America).
If we call the police then the police comes and makes a huge public traumatizing event for the child, based on your suspicions that may or may not be true.
In Norway we call Barnevernet and they do a discrete investigation and has conversations with the parents of the child and friends of the family without ever including the child in the investigation until they feel the need to do so. 9/10 of these investigations are dismissed and the kids aren't even aware of anything happening, however if the investigation shows worrying things they'll take actions.
Things they can do:
- Take the child away (harshest move)
- Family therapy
- Teaching parents / helping parents.
- Giving the child/kid/young adult a mentor/role model that takes them out on different activities (commonly used where kids are slipping into bad social circles)
- Moving the child to a foster home for periods. (can be friends of the family or uncles and grandparents etc, used if the adults in the childs home have health issues like drug or alcohol addictions)

One family my mom is close to:
6 kids in the family, Oldest daughter got pregnant at 16- then again at 18. She's now 27 and stays at home collecting welfare.
next 2 kids, male, moved out when they were 18 (1 year between them) and they "fled" away from her moving to another country (sweden). They couldn't stand their mom.
Next kid, female, got pregnant at 14, got into a social circle with alcohol and drugs. Miscarried the child after 3 months of the pregnancy- father of the child beat her and caused the death of the child in her belly. Shes now 19 and living at a foster family which Barnevernet (social services) set in place.
Next kid is 16 now, she got into the same circle as her older sister and social services have now stepped inn and given her a mentor and she lives 2 days a week (weekends) away from home to get her away from the bad social circle she's been in.
Youngest daughter is 14, smokes and drinks- social services have moved her fully out of the mothers house.

Now I know the mother, the 2 sons of hers were friends of mine when I was in school. The mother isn't "bad" but she divorced her husband when the oldest daughter was turning into her teens. The mother simply couldn't handle 6 kids and year after year of teenager bullshit acts (kids will be kids), do we blame her? No- we help her to take care of her kids... The mom is a nurse and had a stable job for decades, she has not medical issues what so ever (that I know of). Sometimes it's the kids that are the problem as well, hell maybe not even the kids but the friends of the kids that influence them badly...


People need to understand that these things aren't done to punish anyone, it's done to help the kids in the best way to grow up to be proper citizens.

[TirielWoW]

Pentecostals are some the craziest of the bunch, it may as well be child abuse to raise children in a faith where idiot preachers think they're healing people's cancer by putting their hand on their heads, and get bit by snakes and die.

Rant aside, I hope they had an actual legitimate reason to take these children, because singing a song is probably not one of them.

I was raised Pentecostal (Assemblies of God, to be precise). I've never seen snakes at any religious service, and while they do pray for the sick, they encourage people to go to the doctor.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

As far as I know the children were saying/singing something very inappropriate which someone reacted to and notified the authorities, I do not know what that might've been but it's the same thing as finding out about arranged marriages or other "culture traits" that we do not support as they are proven to break human rights and so on.

This doesn't have anything to do with the "right wing" prime minister we have now, I'm a left wing person myself- teacher. We notify all kinds of alarm signals to the authorities, it's not strict at all- 99% of the things reported are dismissed, if whatever the authorities discovered while investigating was apparently enough reason for a change of environment for the kid(s).

To paint you a picture, if a child of a family grows up to be in bad social circles (drugs, crime, underage pregnancy/alcohol intake etc) then social services in Norway will keep an eye on the younger siblings in that family and if they see things they dislike they'll step inn and make changes- "worst case" move the child from the parents. Sounds horrible but it's to secure the child the best possible future, may not even be anything wrong with the parents. Can be as simple as the friends of the child are having issues that influences the kid. Like I said, change of environment.

Imagine this, middle-eastern family circumcises their daughter- horrible thing to do. Take the daughter away or not?
Christian family teaches their kid values that are not welcome in the modern world (radicalism basically), take the kid or not?

People should be happy there's such a government agency that looks after the well being of kids, even if it means they can't stay with their family.

Your world view is irreconcilable with mine and as such, I'm glad I don't have to live in your country. The values and beliefs I teach my children are not the business of my next door neighbor, much less the state. The state exists to protect the lives and property people from external threats, and their fellow citizens. It does not exist to lecture us on what we are to say and believe. So long as I am not threatening your property and your person, I am not violating your rights, and the government has no place in our interactions. Quit using the power of government to enforce your worldview on your fellow citizens.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I bet you don't do that with muslims, do you?

There's no race or religion into this...
Some cultures are harder to "see" warning signals since they're secretive but from my own experience as a teacher a lot of the "reasoning" behind these investigations are because the kids say something to their teachers or trainers/coaches and so on.

- - - Updated - - -

Your world view is irreconcilable with mine and as such, I'm glad I don't have to live in your country. The values and beliefs I teach my children are not the business of my next door neighbor, much less the state. The state exists to protect the lives and property people from external threats, and their fellow citizens. It does not exist to lecture us on what we are to say and believe. So long as I am not threatening your property and your person, I am not violating your rights, and the government has no place in our interactions. Quit using the power of government to enforce your worldview on your fellow citizens.

Nobody is saying you can't raise your children to be christian or jewish or things like that. The government in Norway are simply watching out for the physical and mental well-being of the kids. Nobody will take your kid away for being actively religious and going to church every day. However if you're forcing your child to marry someone or you're teaching your child that X or Y are "evil" and should be hated that may be taken action against. Depends on how the child expresses what they're taught, for example if a kid starts shouting hateful words toward racial or religious figures (or against, goes for atheists as well) then there's going to be consequences.

[Krille]

I was raised Pentecostal (Assemblies of God, to be precise). I've never seen snakes at any religious service, and while they do pray for the sick, they encourage people to go to the doctor.

This shit only exists in satire/comedy shows here. Unreal that people actually follow these cults.

[Deleted]

Indoctrinating your children into your religion is brainwashing, and makes me sick to my stomach.

They should be free to choose, but how do you prove that they did/didn't? Not an easy task.

Regardless, in Scandinavia we do remove children from custody if the parents aren't equipped to handle raising them.

I was such a child, and today I'm very grateful that I was removed from that toxic situation.

Another thing to add is that it isn't just one person deciding that a couple should lose custody of their children, several people are consulted and analyze the situation before a decision is reached.

I don't believe Barnevernet to be in the wrong here, far from it.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Indoctrinating your children into your religion is brainwashing, and makes me sick to my stomach.

They should be free to choose, but how do you prove that they did/didn't? Not an easy task.

Regardless, in Scandinavia we do remove children from custody if the parents aren't equipped to handle raising them.

I was such a child, and today I'm very grateful that I was removed from that toxic situation.

Another thing to add is that it isn't just one person deciding that a couple should lose custody of their children, several people are consulted and analyze the situation before a decision is reached.

I don't believe Barnevernet to be in the wrong here, far from it.

Exactly. It's not like Barnevernet goes around and "takes" kids because their parents are Jewish or Muslim or Christian or other religions, they take kids (when I say take that's the harshest outcome, most of the time it ends up with family counseling and mentors assigned to the kids) when they see no other options for the well being of them.

[Krille]

Indoctrinating your children into your religion is brainwashing, and makes me sick to my stomach.

They should be free to choose, but how do you prove that they did/didn't? Not an easy task.

Regardless, in Scandinavia we do remove children from custody if the parents aren't equipped to handle raising them.

I was such a child, and today I'm very grateful that I was removed from that toxic situation.

Another thing to add is that it isn't just one person deciding that a couple should lose custody of their children, several people are consulted and analyze the situation before a decision is reached.

I don't believe Barnevernet to be in the wrong here, far from it.

It's the same here, but mostly if you try to commit suicide or do something criminal. In my small hometown a boy in my age recently killed a teacher with 40 stab wounds and stomping on his head. He was raised by 2 parents following the cult Jehovah Witnesses. Typical example of where it could've been needed.

[Deleted]

If you were at some friends house and the kid of the family whispers to you: "My dad beats me." or something like that, or if you see someone beating their child or you hear someone talking about marrying their child to some other family (arranged marriage). What would you do? call the police?

Well in Norway we call Barnevernet, Protective Service for kids basically. (Social Services iirc in America).
If we call the police then the police comes and makes a huge public traumatizing event for the child, based on your suspicions that may or may not be true.
In Norway we call Barnevernet and they do a discrete investigation and has conversations with the parents of the child and friends of the family without ever including the child in the investigation until they feel the need to do so. 9/10 of these investigations are dismissed and the kids aren't even aware of anything happening, however if the investigation shows worrying things they'll take actions.
Things they can do:
- Take the child away (harshest move)
- Family therapy
- Teaching parents / helping parents.
- Giving the child/kid/young adult a mentor/role model that takes them out on different activities (commonly used where kids are slipping into bad social circles)
- Moving the child to a foster home for periods. (can be friends of the family or uncles and grandparents etc, used if the adults in the childs home have health issues like drug or alcohol addictions)

One family my mom is close to:
6 kids in the family, Oldest daughter got pregnant at 16- then again at 18. She's now 27 and stays at home collecting welfare.
next 2 kids, male, moved out when they were 18 (1 year between them) and they "fled" away from her moving to another country (sweden). They couldn't stand their mom.
Next kid, female, got pregnant at 14, got into a social circle with alcohol and drugs. Miscarried the child after 3 months of the pregnancy- father of the child beat her and caused the death of the child in her belly. Shes now 19 and living at a foster family which Barnevernet (social services) set in place.
Next kid is 16 now, she got into the same circle as her older sister and social services have now stepped inn and given her a mentor and she lives 2 days a week (weekends) away from home to get her away from the bad social circle she's been in.
Youngest daughter is 14, smokes and drinks- social services have moved her fully out of the mothers house.

Now I know the mother, the 2 sons of hers were friends of mine when I was in school. The mother isn't "bad" but she divorced her husband when the oldest daughter was turning into her teens. The mother simply couldn't handle 6 kids and year after year of teenager bullshit acts (kids will be kids), do we blame her? No- we help her to take care of her kids... The mom is a nurse and had a stable job for decades, she has not medical issues what so ever (that I know of). Sometimes it's the kids that are the problem as well, hell maybe not even the kids but the friends of the kids that influence them badly...


People need to understand that these things aren't done to punish anyone, it's done to help the kids in the best way to grow up to be proper citizens.

I honestly don't agree with this one dimensional point of view when it comes to raising children. There is literally no difference between the way Norway acts and hardcore communist regimes that seek to mold all citizens into identical drones.
Being a christian, even a conservative one is not some disease to be eradicated from society, and quite frankly I find it very offensive. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech are basic human rights.
To these people, being a christian is NOT a religion to be practiced, but a way of life and it's part of who they are. They don't leave that part of themselves outside when they enter school grounds, just like an African/Middle Eastern/East Asian person can't leave his skin color at home when he goes to an interview in a Western country.

I have a feeling all this has something to do with this. The kids were probably talking about some batshit crazy Pentecostal crap, like faith healing or they were "speaking in tongues".

You have no idea what you're talking about, but then again, it comes as no surprise seeing how anti-religious and misinformed this forum is.
This is about Norway's government and its borderline North Korean attitude when it comes to intervening in the lives of its citizens.

Indoctrinating your children into your religion is brainwashing, and makes me sick to my stomach.

They should be free to choose, but how do you prove that they did/didn't? Not an easy task.

Regardless, in Scandinavia we do remove children from custody if the parents aren't equipped to handle raising them.

I was such a child, and today I'm very grateful that I was removed from that toxic situation.

Another thing to add is that it isn't just one person deciding that a couple should lose custody of their children, several people are consulted and analyze the situation before a decision is reached.

I don't believe Barnevernet to be in the wrong here, far from it.

Define religious indoctrination, because the way you make it sound is like even mentioning that you believe in a higher power and you're under the age of 18 is a crime against humanity.
So kids should be free to choose, but it is only socially acceptable if they choose/are raised as atheists.
I think you color all religious people through lenses tinted by your own unfortunate experience.

Furthermore, it has not been proven in this case that the parents were in any way abusive with their children, so you're basically pulling facts from your ass now.

[Deleted]

It's the same here, but mostly if you try to commit suicide or do something criminal. In my small hometown a boy in my age recently killed a teacher with 40 stab wounds and stomping on his head. He was raised by 2 parents following the cult Jehovah Witnesses. Typical example of where it could've been needed.

In my case it was because my mom was unable to handle the stress of raising 4 children on her own, and started getting very physical with us, especially me.

Also, I know a few people from Uppsala, that's crazy ;O

[Krille]

I honestly don't agree with this one dimensional point of view when it comes to raising children. There is literally no difference between the way Norway acts and hardcore communist regimes that seek to mold all citizens into identical drones.
Being a christian, even a conservative one is not some disease to be eradicated from society, and quite frankly I find it very offensive. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech are basic human rights.
To these people, being a christian is NOT a religion to be practiced, but a way of life and it's part of who they are. They don't leave that part of themselves outside when they enter school grounds, just like an African/Middle Eastern/East Asian person can't leave his skin color at home when he goes to an interview in a Western country.


You have no idea what you're talking about, but then again, it comes as no surprise seeing how anti-religious and misinformed this forum is.
This is about Norway's government and its borderline North Korean attitude when it comes to intervening in the lives of its citizens.

How is that childs "freedom of religion" going when he/she get's their views shut down his/hers throat? Your view on freedom of religion is also batshit crazy, it's only free if it's christianity. Keep being insulted, nobody cares.

- - - Updated - - -

In my case it was because my mom was unable to handle the stress of raising 4 children on her own, and started getting very physical with us, especially me.

Also, I know a few people from Uppsala, that's crazy ;O

Well i'm not from Uppsala (it's also not a small town with Swedish standards in mind) this happened in a small town of around 6000 people. He got the life sentence though so all good. Yea that's always a problem, my mom also had issues but it was never that bad cus me and my brother were only 2. Parents being alcoholics also warrants getting their child removed.

[Garnier Fructis]

Define religious indoctrination, because the way you make it sound is like even mentioning that you believe in a higher power and you're under the age of 18 is a crime against humanity.
So kids should be free to choose, but it is only socially acceptable if they choose/are raised as atheists.
I think you color all religious people through lenses tinted by your own unfortunate experience.

Furthermore, it has not been proven in this case that the parents were in any way abusive with their children, so you're basically pulling facts from your ass now.

That's the problem, there is no real choice. They didn't choose it, they were born into it and raised with it.

It's not like there's any real way to avoid this, but let's at least stop framing it like a freedom of choice thing.

[Deleted]

How is that childs "freedom of religion" going when he/she get's their views shut down his/hers throat? Your view on freedom of religion is also batshit crazy, it's only free if it's christianity. Keep being insulted, nobody cares.

You make a bunch of idiotic assumptions and i'm the crazy one? Lol k.

That's the problem, there is no real choice. They didn't choose it, they were born into it and raised with it.

It's not like there's any real way to avoid this, but let's at least stop framing it like a freedom of choice thing.

So why is it ok to be raised an atheist and not a christian/muslim/buddhist/taoist?
What exactly makes one good and one bad?
While it is true that extremists exist in all religions, the vast majority of people who practice a religion are NOT toxic citizens.
You make it sound like being raised in such a family is a bad thing and those children are doomed to a shitty childhood, which is not the case.
There is literally nothing stopping these children from changing/continuing/renouncing their beliefs one they are mature enough to make a choice for themselves.
Additionally, like I mentioned before, forcing your citizens to raise their children as atheists is no different from a communist regime that seeks to indoctrinate people. The only difference is that the point of view is anti-religious, political or nationalist.


So you see, everything can be considered indoctrination if you adopt such an exaggerated point of view, which is precisely the problem.

[Deleted]

I honestly don't agree with this one dimensional point of view when it comes to raising children. There is literally no difference between the way Norway acts and hardcore communist regimes that seek to mold all citizens into identical drones.

Huge differences, you're just ignorant of how, when and why things are done the way they are up here because you're selectively reading what you find relevant and dismissing what you don't.

If you believe that children should be raised in environments that are hazardous to their well-being, either physically or mentally, then I spit on your opinion.

Being a christian, even a conservative one is not some disease to be eradicated from society, and quite frankly I find it very offensive. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech are basic human rights.

Noone cares that you find it offensive. It's time for one of my favorite quotes; 'Announcing: ''I'm offended'' is basically telling the world that you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you'.

Fundamentalists and conservative christians are a blight on modern society. Especially when they indoctrinate their children, it's child abuse.

[Krille]

You make a bunch of idiotic assumptions and i'm the crazy one? Lol k.


So why is it ok to be raised an atheist and not a christian/muslim/buddhist/taoist?
What exactly makes one good and one bad?
While it is true that extremists exist in all religions, the vast majority of people who practice a religion are NOT toxic citizens.
You make it sound like being raised in such a family is a bad thing and those children are doomed to a shitty childhood, which is not the case.
There is literally nothing stopping these children from changing/continuing/renouncing their beliefs one they are mature enough to make a choice for themselves.
Additionally, like I mentioned before, forcing your citizens to raise their children as atheists is no different from a communist regime that seeks to indoctrinate people. The only difference is that the point of view is anti-religious, political or nationalist.


So you see, everything can be considered indoctrination if you adopt such an exaggerated point of view, which is precisely the problem.

Where does it say that the Norwegian government raise the children as atheists? If they deem the parents religious activity to be a danger for the child they will remove the child from the family but the child is free to take up any religion after that. Just not the extremist damaging part of it.

Being atheist is the only logical solution to this whole religion bullshit as far as i'm concerned. But if people want to believe in an old grandpa in the skies they can do that, just don't force it on me or a child who can't make their own judgements.

[Deleted]

Huge differences, you're just ignorant of how, when and why things are done the way they are up here because you're selectively reading what you find relevant and dismissing what you don't.

If you believe that children should be raised in environments that are hazardous to their well-being, either physically or mentally, then I spit on your opinion.

Or maybe you're the ignorant one because you're blinded by a false assumption that a perfect society is an irreligious one.
Also I don't agree with children being raised in abusive environments, but then again, like I've stated above, you're blinded by a rabid anti-religious hatred and no other point of view is acceptable.
As such, you will excuse the fuck out of me if I piss on your opinion as well.

Noone cares that you find it offensive. It's time for one of my favorite quotes; 'Announcing: ''I'm offended'' is basically telling the world that you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you'.

Fundamentalists and conservative christians are a blight on modern society. Especially when they indoctrinate their children, it's child abuse.

And nobody cares that you hate religious people and generalize all of them under the "nut job" umbrella.
But you're right. I am offended, because you and like minded people argue against fundamental human rights upon which our society is based on, and I would not want to live in a world where people with your mindset get to dictate to others how they should live and think, where only one point of view is only socially acceptable.
That is mass indoctrination, only of a different flavor and you're no different from the people you so ardently hate.

Where does it say that the Norwegian government raise the children as atheists? If they deem the parents religious activity to be a danger for the child they will remove the child from the family but the child is free to take up any religion after that. Just not the extremist damaging part of it.

They haven't. That's the thing, the investigation is ongoing. Also singing christian songs is extremist how? Did that little girl strap a bomb to herself and blew up her classmates in the name of Jesus?

Being atheist is the only logical solution to this whole religion bullshit as far as i'm concerned. But if people want to believe in an old grandpa in the skies they can do that, just don't force it on me or a child who can't make their own judgements.

Yet you're ok with them forcing other beliefs on parents and their children, as if they are the only acceptable ones to have. That's the problem, you argue that their children were taken because of some sort of secret abuse, but you deem all religious activity as abusive.
Also try again, because as far as I know, christians don't believe in flying grandpas.

[Garnier Fructis]

You make a bunch of idiotic assumptions and i'm the crazy one? Lol k.


So why is it ok to be raised an atheist and not a christian/muslim/buddhist/taoist?
What exactly makes one good and one bad?
While it is true that extremists exist in all religions, the vast majority of people who practice a religion are NOT toxic citizens.
You make it sound like being raised in such a family is a bad thing and those children are doomed to a shitty childhood, which is not the case.
There is literally nothing stopping these children from changing/continuing/renouncing their beliefs one they are mature enough to make a choice for themselves.
Additionally, like I mentioned before, forcing your citizens to raise their children as atheists is no different from a communist regime that seeks to indoctrinate people. The only difference is that the point of view is anti-religious, political or nationalist.


So you see, everything can be considered indoctrination if you adopt such an exaggerated point of view, which is precisely the problem.

Atheism has no dogma. There is no a priori unprovable unquestionable truth.

The only indoctrination is to question shit and not be lazy.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

There's no race or religion into this...
Some cultures are harder to "see" warning signals since they're secretive but from my own experience as a teacher a lot of the "reasoning" behind these investigations are because the kids say something to their teachers or trainers/coaches and so on.

- - - Updated - - -



Nobody is saying you can't raise your children to be christian or jewish or things like that. The government in Norway are simply watching out for the physical and mental well-being of the kids. Nobody will take your kid away for being actively religious and going to church every day. However if you're forcing your child to marry someone or you're teaching your child that X or Y are "evil" and should be hated that may be taken action against. Depends on how the child expresses what they're taught, for example if a kid starts shouting hateful words toward racial or religious figures (or against, goes for atheists as well) then there's going to be consequences.

The consequences for a child saying inappropriate things are something like suspension from school, or perhaps expulsion if it gets bad enough. Hateful speech however, is just that, speech. The appropriate response to someone saying something you don't like is arguing against them, not having government silence them for you. By your measure I could have my children taken for me for telling them abortion is evil and having them repeat it at school. To do so would be upholding my religious beliefs. Should I have my children removed from me because you disagree with that worldview?